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Old 07-23-2020, 09:04 AM   #61
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The OPs words, and this discussion, somewhat reminds me of the debate about whether to have the plug pulled on you when you are in a vegetative state. Ok, not as serious but similar.

For some of us, quality of life might outweigh quantity. If Covid is going to keep us locked down for years, and you cannot do a LARGE number of things you wanted to be doing when you retired, then what is the point of living in such a paranoid state...ie, up the risk level, and just do some of these things anyway (if available). I *think* that is what the OP is saying, and I am tempted at times to get on that wagon.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:11 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by camfused View Post
The OPs words, and this discussion, somewhat reminds me of the debate about whether to have the plug pulled on you when you are in a vegetative state. Ok, not as serious but similar.

For some of us, quality of life might outweigh quantity. If Covid is going to keep us locked down for years, and you cannot do a LARGE number of things you wanted to be doing when you retired, then what is the point of living in such a paranoid state...ie, up the risk level, and just do some of these things anyway (if available). I *think* that is what the OP is saying, and I am tempted at times to get on that wagon.

That is essentially what I’m asking. Thanks for restating. Although I don’t like the pull the plug analogy. It appears most folks on this board would wait basically forever.

PS, I also don’t like referring to those who would wait forever as paranoid. IMO, everyone has to make their own decisions through this. Don’t criticize mine, as I won’t criticize yours.

But having said that, you have captured my question and thoughts correctly.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by MuirWannabe View Post
That is essentially what I’m asking. Thanks for restating. Although I don’t like the pull the plug analogy. It appears most folks on this board would wait basically forever.

PS, I also don’t like referring to those who would wait forever as paranoid. IMO, everyone has to make their own decisions through this. Don’t criticize mine, as I won’t criticize yours.

But having said that, you have captured my question and thoughts correctly.
Fortunately there's a middle ground for most. We're back going to restaurants, playing golf, sailing, some shopping (with a mask) and socializing in small groups with distancing - or we'd be crazy(ier) by now. OTOH we're not ready to go to movies, theater, concerts, bars, hotels, traveling by air - not yet anyway. I'm sure there are some who need to avoid all contact with others, but I don't know anyone like that myself. As you say, there's a different "right answer" for each of us. This will pass eventually, though it's already taken longer than I thought it would in Mar-Apr - it's hard on all of us.

On the bright side, it's easier for an FI retiree than most - most of us don't have careers or businesses hanging in the balance.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:31 AM   #64
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Us introverts defintely fare so much better in this pandemic than extroverts.


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Old 07-23-2020, 09:37 AM   #65
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My unhappiness about the covid restrictions eased dramatically when they reopened the local beaches for walking.

Locally we have no indoor dining, movies, indoor gyms or personal services. No biggy for me. Here in San Diego outdoor dining is year round. I miss movies and the gym... but not enough to go back anytime soon.

My MIL is 93 and more frail and senile every day. It is likely she will pass in the next few months. DH visited her last year and she didn't recognize him. Staff at her memory unit will assist with phone calls and the local BIL visits her daily and chats and sings to/with her through the window. He'll put my husband on the phone when he does this. (They share guardianship - local BIL is guardian of person, DH has the financial legal responsibility.) This brings up the conundrum of travel. DH will likely have to travel to Philadelphia for her funeral. He's too nervous to fly. Younger son will likely drive with him for the trip. In normal, pre-covid times we'd all fly for this.

I visit my step mom, virtually, once a week. Stepmom is a former Nursing Instructor and only retired from online teaching 4 years ago. She's very computer savvy and still pretty darn lucid. One of her daughters brings groceries to her assisted living community but they can't hug... 6 feet distance so a walker is used to transfer the groceries and they chat, wearing masks, and maintaining distance. I miss in person visits. Playing bridge was mentioned in a previous post. Stepmom has 3 different bridge groups made up of residents in her community. They wear masks - but they are in their own bubble. They are allowed to visit together... just not with outsiders.

As for big travel... I'd been planning on a Galapagos Island trip for fall 2021... That may have to wait several years or forever. If covid is here for the long haul we'll look into getting a small RV and travel in our own pod... I'm not going to risk dying or loss of health (strokes, heart issues, lung damage) just for a vacation.

An older friend of mine (she's 79 and one of my beach walking buddies) is trying to figure out how to visit her kids/grandkids/great grandkids. She's purchased a 'hazmat' suit for the plane trip to Illinois. She says she doesn't care if she looks ridiculous - she wants to see family.
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Old 07-23-2020, 09:38 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by MuirWannabe View Post
That is essentially what I’m asking. Thanks for restating. Although I don’t like the pull the plug analogy. It appears most folks on this board would wait basically forever.

PS, I also don’t like referring to those who would wait forever as paranoid. IMO, everyone has to make their own decisions through this. Don’t criticize mine, as I won’t criticize yours.

But having said that, you have captured my question and thoughts correctly.
That famous quote It's not paranoia if it's true I personally feel sometimes that I might be heading towards paranoia ..it's a fine line....

Sometimes I feel more paranoia after reading here, we definitely trend to the cautious side.
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:00 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by MuirWannabe View Post
It appears most folks on this board would wait basically forever.
Not most folks on the board, just most who have posted in the thread.
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Originally Posted by ivinsfan View Post
That famous quote It's not paranoia if it's true I personally feel sometimes that I might be heading towards paranoia ..it's a fine line....

Sometimes I feel more paranoia after reading here, we definitely trend to the cautious side.
Paranoid is based on delusion. This is caution. Definitely not the same. Whether the caution is warranted or excessive may be subject to opinion, but COVID is an infectious disease and very much a reality.
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:04 AM   #68
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Not most folks on the board, just most who have posted in the thread.

Paranoid is based on delusion. This is caution. Definitely not the same. Whether the caution is warranted or excessive may be subject to opinion, but COVID is an infectious disease and very much a reality.
Agree on COVID for sure ..excessive caution might swing toward the paranoid scale, it kinds of depends on how you look at it. If I start thinking every person passing me in the grocery store might kill me (with COVID) for example.

Or I might use my Mom's old school term worrywart..
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:10 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by MuirWannabe View Post
That is essentially what I’m asking. Thanks for restating. Although I don’t like the pull the plug analogy. It appears most folks on this board would wait basically forever.

PS, I also don’t like referring to those who would wait forever as paranoid. IMO, everyone has to make their own decisions through this. Don’t criticize mine, as I won’t criticize yours.

But having said that, you have captured my question and thoughts correctly.
At this point I’m not expecting COVID-19 to have us locked down for years. Maybe we have to still take some minor precautions for a while longer.
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:15 AM   #70
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My unhappiness about the covid restrictions eased dramatically when they reopened the local beaches for walking.
Yes, beaches, and parks for me. Then outdoor dining, and I have to say getting my hair fixed was worth it. Going ahead with getting my totally elective knee surgery that I'd been putting off, also worth it.

I'm good with those, but I do remember thinking when we were on full lockdown (only grocery stores), how long I would last. And age factors in, not just for risks but for how long is reasonably left. Are you gambling 10, 20, 30 or 40 years? I'm hoping for 40, so I should probably wait longest, but that also puts me in a lower risk bracket.

We are all welcome to our own calculus, but it's far from binary.

Oh, eta: I'm also hoping that real time, really available testing becomes a thing. Get a saliva test to get on a plane or come in my house. Take a quick test before I go visit Mom and Dad, that sort of thing - if we can all make real time decisions it will be a game changer.
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Old 07-23-2020, 10:39 AM   #71
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I think it will be years before things return to normal in New Orleans, although I do not know.

Right now, the only changes Frank and I are experiencing compared with pre-pandemic life are

(1) not being able to go to businesses that are closed and not allowed to open (for example, Frank can't work at his "fun job" since bars are all closed right now and live music anywhere is forbidden); and

(2) wearing masks inside and outside.

(3) no more of the traditional hello/goodbye kisses that have always been customary here in New Orleans, due to social distancing.

We still go out to lunch every day; our restaurant isn't very busy at all.

We stopped going to the gym a couple of weeks ago, even though gyms are open here right now. Our reasons are a combination of COVID-fear/concern, plus laziness plus weather related sinus issues that make us feel like any excuse not to go, is good enough.

We are able to go bird-watching from our car, with closed windows, at the boat launch. This is something we love to do and couldn't do back in March because of mandates then.

I wonder what our usual Christmas Eve dinner, at a fancy restaurant with 40-50 of Frank's extended family, will be like this year. Maybe they will call it off and that would be so sad.

(Edited to remove a long and possibly contraversial paragraph about m*** wearing - - suffice it to say, that I will be so glad when they are no longer needed or mandated).
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Old 07-23-2020, 11:48 AM   #72
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It's Risk vs. Reward.
DD1 lives out of state and her husband is an ICU pulmonary doctor who's in contact with Covid-19 patients everyday. I've not seen her at all. Very High Risk / High Reward but she won't let me visit and the risk is too great. DD2 lives near and is a working hair dresser. I see her once a week but no hugs and kisses. High Risk / High Reward.
Travel, we just canceled an out of state to OC MD. as we see Restaurants closing due to out break. Risk of catch something at the beach or outdoor restaurants is probably low, but now outweighs Reward. Especially with the NY quarantine orders on return. We're looking at a Finger Lakes trip instead. Low Risk/High Reward.
DGF and her grandsons are a Medium Risk/High Reward so I see and play and hug them even though the boys go to daycare and their mom works.
Indoor restaurants, Taverns, etc. Risk outweighs Reward. My friends are back to trivia night at the pizza pub. They say it's pretty isolated by teams but these friends are younger and party in many different groups, so I'm out. We do get together outdoors for driveway beers but stay pretty far apart.

If things stay as they are I'll probably start traveling out of state by car in another 6 months. Might never fly again. Might eat in an indoor restaurant in 6 months too. Might never go into a crowded bar again [emoji3525]
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:22 PM   #73
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I am still going to work everyday, using mask and gloves in shared areas, which I see as risky. I spend most of my time alone in office (door closed, without mask), and feel my coworkers who spend time socializing with or without masks are putting us all at risk. The risk factor is pushing me closer to pulling the plug and FIREing myself everyday.

Outside of work, we have gone on walks, visited park district and outdoor state parks. We traveled to a low Covid destination (Duluth/North Shore), but rented a cottage with a kitchen and had three indoor restaurant meals while driving since the beginning of lockdowns. We have purchased carryout food and visited the grocery and hardware stores. I considered visiting the patio areas of the local brewery, but decided on purchasing carryout when I saw the maskless crowds. We have not considered any local outdoor dining because it seems generally risky. We have had limited socially distanced outdoor visits with a couple of neighbors.

Overall, I see this as the status quo for the time being. I am also not optimistic about the prospects of a vaccine in the near term. We have been working on vaccines for AIDS for a long time, and wishful thinking hasn't gotten us there after 30 years. I think that moving forward we may opt for more curbside pickup and less in store shopping for groceries. I can live without the destinations pretty much indefinitely.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:44 PM   #74
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"To lose patience is to lose the battle." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Just as with investing, a rational and unemotional approach is likely to yield the best outcome. Decisions made simply because one is frustrated and impatient are likely to be poor ones.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:07 PM   #75
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"To lose patience is to lose the battle." -- Mahatma Gandhi



Just as with investing, a rational and unemotional approach is likely to yield the best outcome. Decisions made simply because one is frustrated and impatient are likely to be poor ones.

“Opportunities are like sunrises. If you wait too long, you miss them”.

It’s not about annoyance or lost patience in my thinking. It’s about lost opportunities. I’m RE and 58. I’ve got 10 years?? (who knows exactly), left to do adventures I’d dreamed about. My retirement biological clock is ticking. My parents life clock is quite literally ticking.

I’ve stated I’m willing to wait another 6ish+ months. That’s on top of the 5 months we’ve already done. I don’t think that’s impatience. And I don’t think it’s irrational. It might be emotional, but none of us are Spock. So overall, I reject your characterization.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:22 PM   #76
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That is what is being said.

I am generally not that skeptical, but I'm in the "yeah sounds good, will believe it when I see" camp. So I'm not pinning my hopes on anything panning out on the vaccine front. I do think therapeutics will evolve and incrementally improve, so part of my wait-it-out strategy includes, A) being late to the crowded-hospital-party, and, B) getting better meds If I do end up there.
These are good ideas, in case there will be no effective vaccine. I hope things about vaccine(s) will become more clear in late September or October. I certainly don't want to stay home forever if there is no vaccine.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:24 PM   #77
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If we find out by the beginning of 2021 that a fairly effective vaccine exists, great. If it takes a few more months for effective distribution, I can wait for that too. Even if a vaccine isn't 100% effective, I'll take what I can get. A 75-80% effective vaccine will give me a lot more confidence about resuming traveling.

If on the other hand we get to the first of next year and all the vaccine candidates that have trials this year are deemed ineffective, and by next year it seems that we are no closer to an effective vaccine than we are this year, I'm not sure exactly what I'll do but I will be very hesitant about traveling (and other group activities). What I think now is, I'll still want to get back to a little bit of traveling but not anywhere near as much as I would have planned; I will try to avoid sightseeing that is likely to be crowded; etc.
+1

From everything I've read and heard recently, there is a good chance an effective vaccine will be available within the next year. IMHO, with so much intensive effort being focused on vaccine development by so many independent companies/groups/teams, the odds are in our favor. Assuming it will take about a year, I feel like I can wait that long before getting on an airplane again. In the meantime, road trips will have to suffice, and that's OK. I would rather accept that inconvenience and minor quality-of-life downgrade than unnecessarily increase my risk of becoming (potentially very) sick with COVID-19.

In the unlikely event that neither an effective vaccine nor substantially improved treatments are widely available by next summer, I'd have to start doing some soul-searching. What things would I be missing so much that the risks of resuming them would be outweighed by the rewards? I love traveling, and miss it, so I'd likely be tempted to do some limited air travel and probably resume staying in hotels and AirBnB's again. Maybe also start dining out at restaurants occasionally, too. I can't see myself not doing those things at all for years and years to come, even if an effective vaccine proves to be elusive. I'd just have to figure out ways to be extra, extra careful and use the most effective, highest quality PPE I could find.

One thing is for sure, though. Until this virus becomes about as innocuous as the seasonal flu—if that ever happens—I can't envision myself ever doing things like grocery shopping or attending a festival or going to a movie theater again without wearing an N95-type mask.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:30 PM   #78
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Muirwannabe, everyone has to assess his or her own risks and the risks of the ones they love and make their own decision about Covid. You are age 58, I am age 69 so of course my risk is higher than you and I am going to act accordingly. In your original post you asked for the opinions of others on this Forum on this topic. Now you have gotten our opinions, but it seems you don't really want our opinions. Maybe you just wanted us to tell you what you plan to do is OK but we can't do that--you have to make your own decisions. I wish you the best with what you decide.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:31 PM   #79
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Yea, I’m not in the predicting business about vaccines or meds. My question was simply, how long would you wait for it?

Thanks for the replies so far. Most seem to be saying they’d basically wait forever if necessary. My answer is different. I’m not willing to wait forever. Maybe another 6- 12 months. But at some point I’m gonna say no more. And be willing to carry on living my retirement life with much more risk I guess. That is, if I have a choice. Things still have to be open to enjoy them. And people have to be willing to see you.
I am going to wait until late September or October. Two of the activities that I want to do most are casinos and travels, both are impacted heavily. I have visited a casino in June when it reopened and did several local travels. But long distance travels cannot be determined by my will, they are restricted by the governments. However, by early next year, if there is no vaccine available, I think the governments (of many countries) will realize that they cannot lock people down forever and will relax the restrictions on travel. I hope by early next year, there will be enough people with immunity and the virus becomes weaker and the treatments become more effective, the danger of the virus will be largely mitigated.
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Old 07-23-2020, 02:50 PM   #80
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Muirwannabe, everyone has to assess his or her own risks and the risks of the ones they love and make their own decision about Covid. You are age 58, I am age 69 so of course my risk is higher than you and I am going to act accordingly. In your original post you asked for the opinions of others on this Forum on this topic. Now you have gotten our opinions, but it seems you don't really want our opinions. Maybe you just wanted us to tell you what you plan to do is OK but we can't do that--you have to make your own decisions. I wish you the best with what you decide.

Well, that’s odd. What makes you think I don’t want members opinions? That’s exactly what I requested and have largely received. And I have also stated a couple times in this thread that everyone must make their own decisions.

So your post above is incongruent with what I’ve posted. Anyway, I too wish you the best on what you choose.
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