Oh, the young and the virus

[razztazz]

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Originally Posted by Koolau Actually (forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere) I saw a Doc (epid.?) talking about why old folks might be at greater risk. It's not that their immune systems are "old" or "worn out" etc. His theory is that older folks immune systems are "too good!" Our (old guy here) immune systems have seen it all and are ready to fight at first insult. Unfortunately, we fight so well that the typical immune response (inflammation and massive white cell attack) compromise lung cells, causing pneumonia. No idea if this is correct, but it made as much sense to me as suggesting that our immune systems are "too old" or "worn out" to fight. Of course, YMMV.

I've heard that same theory put forth as to why the Spanish flu was more serious among young people and seemed to take it easy on older people. Young people's immune systems are stronger and something about the flu caused it to over-react. Old people's immune response was just strong enough to fight but lacked the "5th gear" that would lead to jiu jitsuing itself to death

[Mdlerth]

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Originally Posted by Bigdawg ^ Things we readily accept: 40K/yr auto accident deaths, 15-20K influenza deaths, 20K+ Dengue fever deaths, 42K opiod deaths. Are we going overboard?

Yes. And no.

On the one hand, we hear scaremongers predicting unprecedented millions of deaths, prompting hoarding and profiteering. Political and business leaders, desperate to appear responsive, impulsively shut down half the world's economy.

On the other hand, we observe others ignoring simple behaviors regarding exposure which would be the most powerful factors in controlling the contagion. Enhanced attention to hygiene, allowing separation, and reducing the numbers of our interactions aren't rocket science but they appear to be too much for some to master.

Those of us who would call for both calm and self-discipline are as voices crying out in the wilderness. I fear that future historians will not refer to the present time as The Age of Reason.

[USGrant1962]

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Originally Posted by Mdlerth Yes. And no. On the one hand, we hear scaremongers predicting unprecedented millions of deaths, prompting hoarding and profiteering. Political and business leaders, desperate to appear responsive, impulsively shut down half the world's economy. On the other hand, we observe others ignoring simple behaviors regarding exposure which would be the most powerful factors in controlling the contagion. Enhanced attention to hygiene, allowing separation, and reducing the numbers of our interactions aren't rocket science but they appear to be too much for some to master. Those of us who would call for both calm and self-discipline are as voices crying out in the wilderness. I fear that future historians will not refer to the present time as The Age of Reason.

+1

[tb001]

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Originally Posted by gwraigty I'm sure glad we got off the topic of spitting. It was beginning to make me queasy with the visuals popping into my mind. I understand where you're coming from. The obvious problem is since we don't have massive surveillance and chips implanted in us, no one can prove how anyone, young or old, may or may not have been reckless. My 2 young adult kids still need to go to work, DD quite a bit less now as the restaurant business has died off so much. DS is on the kitchen staff at a nursing home. Other than that, they stay home, no socializing at all. In contrast, SMIL is 79, in extremely poor health, she almost died last year, has one lung, and still insists on going to church every week. FIL is 86, high risk due to his age alone, but also with health problems, and somehow thinks that by him staying home from church that he's going to be OK. Given those 2 scenarios, it seems to me that the old folks are the ones being reckless, not the young folks. Plenty of people of all ages are just doing what they need to do right now. Go to work, if still required. Get food and other necessities. Necessary care. That's it. Others of all ages will still try to socialize unnecessarily. Businesses are being shuttered to try and prevent a lot of it, but...

Totally agree. It’s been hugely frustrating to me to talk with my parents in their 80s. We’re essentially on lockdown, home schooling two young kids and only leaving the house for the bare minimum groceries. We’re cratering the economy to keep my parents from being exposed, and their lives have barely changed. Still going out to dinner, playing golf with friends, making unnecessary trips to Costco and Home Depot. Both have underlying conditions and would be unlikely to survive.

I went to the grocery store this morning for my first trip out in 10 days and it was full of older people shopping. Easily 70% were over 60. And some of those were accompanying a younger shopper, so there was clearly another option! My guess is many of the older people are less familiar with online shopping options, so the stores are skewing older, but it was still shocking to see.

I shudder to think how I would have behaved as a 20 yr old. But at least I know now I was young and stupid!

[atmsmshr]

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Originally Posted by donheff I too have wondered whether we might destroy the economy. This article gives a detailed explanation of why a short term serious suppression effort is worth the disruption

Thank you for posting this article. As an engineer, I appreciate its clear eyed analysis with facts that are currently known.

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by kgtest I have family that drove 1200 miles from "down south" to come to a more-exposed part of the country. Since their employer closed they figured take the vacation now since they have the time off. Man, darwinism. I waved from my window when they tried to visit. Some people are not smart enough to understand and that is just a fact.

I’m so glad you waved from your window! Good lesson for them.

[gwraigty]

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Originally Posted by tb001 Totally agree. It’s been hugely frustrating to me to talk with my parents in their 80s. We’re essentially on lockdown, home schooling two young kids and only leaving the house for the bare minimum groceries. We’re cratering the economy to keep my parents from being exposed, and their lives have barely changed. Still going out to dinner, playing golf with friends, making unnecessary trips to Costco and Home Depot. Both have underlying conditions and would be unlikely to survive. I went to the grocery store this morning for my first trip out in 10 days and it was full of older people shopping. Easily 70% were over 60. And some of those were accompanying a younger shopper, so there was clearly another option! My guess is many of the older people are less familiar with online shopping options, so the stores are skewing older, but it was still shocking to see. I shudder to think how I would have behaved as a 20 yr old. But at least I know now I was young and stupid!

I can understand having to go out for food. But if those same people, old or young, are socializing unnecessarily outside of that, wow. DD was all dressed and ready for work this morning at 7 AM. We were going to leave in literally 5 mins. Then they called her off.

What I'm learning about myself is that the most stressful thing for me is the uncertainty of it all. I've thought from the beginning that we'll probably catch it. I'm hopeful of not having to be hospitalized. The real stress for me is not that DD isn't working much. We'll keep feeding her. It's the anticipation that I'm going to have to take her to work, because she was scheduled, and then they call her off. The last minute change in plans. It would have caused me less stress if they had taken her off the schedule altogether. But everyone is really flying blind with this situation right now. They scheduled everyone for their normal amount of hours before the order came to close dining in. She hasn't been in to see her schedule for the next week (runs from Wed. through Tues.). If they call her off tomorrow (please not at the last minute at 6 AM ), we'll have to make a trip in to do that anyway.

The uncertainty of grocery shopping. Will they have what I need? Will they have anything I'd be willing to eat? Could any of us have imagined thinking those things? Not me. I'm grateful I'm not expecting a large appliance delivery from Best Buy. They're going to leave them outside and the customers now have to figure out how to get them into the house and in place and do their own installations. Yikes!

In my 20's, I did many stupid things, but will only tell this one right now. There was a raging blizzard outside and I was going to return some library books I'd just finished and get some more. The books weren't due that day. My grandfather shamed me into staying home by telling me that it was people like me going out in a blizzard when it wasn't necessary that made it worse for everyone who had to be out driving that day. I haven't gone out in a blizzard since, unless it was absolutely necessary.

[gwraigty]

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Originally Posted by Gumby My church has many older members. To relieve them of the need to decide whether to attend services, the church board voted to close the church. So now it's locked and they couldn't show up even if they wanted to. Many people are more comfortable being told than deciding for themselves. Last Sunday, the service was streamed. Only the pastor and the organist were actually in the Sanctuary. I expect that will continue for quite some time.

So far, our governor hasn't ordered churches to be closed. He should, as it goes against the mandate to not have more than 10 people gathering. At the time, the number may have been 100 or 50, not sure. Even so, many big churches have more than those bigger numbers regularly. Some are starting to close voluntarily until further notice, others for only a couple of weeks (do they really think this is all going to be better that fast).

Yesterday the governor said he's going to announce more closures today. I do hope he adds churches to the list. Allowing them to remain open just provides another huge vector for this virus to spread. It's not much different than the young people packed in like sardines at the beaches or wherever.

[gwraigty]

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Originally Posted by Aerides I spent a good 20 minutes arguing with my 70+ mom & dad to convince them that they don't "need" to go to the post office and the grocery store. They don't "need to go to home depot ("oh right we don't we were there yesterday!") The mail can wait (she has a PO box for financial stuff but she gets it all online anyway). There is no fresh fish in stock, and she's complaining that her freezer is full... Basically said to her "everyone else is staying home so people like YOU don't get sick, so do the same!" And if she really truly does have a need, assign pick up to me as my risk is lower (and I can double-vet the need...)

I think a lot of this is a need for people to be out and about among people, especially old folks who don't have a work reason to leave the house. They're too antsy staying at home. Normally this isn't a problem, but now it is. All these social butterflies need to get with the program. But many won't. I'm not making excuses. This is just my take on it. I totally agree with you.

Do your parents know that grocery stores sell stamps? They won't get a choice, but they will get some stamps. I hardly go to the post office but when I have, sure enough, it's the old people taking up 10 minutes of the only available clerk's time, insisting on looking at every available stamp design. It also boggles my mind when people walk in with an envelope, buy one stamp, stick it on right there, and hand it to the clerk.

[Amethyst]

While far from the worst of my worries, I am perturbed that I have to continue wearing my initial Invisalign trays - which are ony meant for a week's wear - because my dental office shut down the day before I was to get the teeth-trimming treatment, which is critical to correcting my teeth.

So I have the aggravation of wearing the trays while making no progress, and only being able to drink water all day (in between gulping food and coffee/milk, then frantically cleaning my teeth and re-inserting the trays, which must be worn 22 hours a day).

And no end in sight.

[Amethyst]

I wrote and received lots of letters in my teens and 20's. Picking out the stamps was fun. I always looked at my friends' stamps, and I knew they checked out mine, because comments were exchanged on how pretty the stamp was, whether it was on upside down, etc.

But I've barely used a stamp in 10 years, and was down to "forever" stamps well before then. I guess these "old people" are still in the old mode. Kind of goes along with staring at every single piece of meat in the butcher case, to see which one is a teeny bit bigger or something.

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Originally Posted by gwraigty I hardly go to the post office but when I have, sure enough, it's the old people taking up 10 minutes of the only available clerk's time, insisting on looking at every available stamp design. I.

[gwraigty]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst While far from the worst of my worries, I am perturbed that I have to continue wearing my initial Invisalign trays - which are ony meant for a week's wear - because my dental office shut down the day before I was to get the teeth-trimming treatment, which is critical to correcting my teeth. So I have the aggravation of wearing the trays while making no progress, and only being able to drink water all day (in between gulping food and coffee/milk, then frantically cleaning my teeth and re-inserting the trays, which must be worn 22 hours a day). And no end in sight.

I've read that some dentists shut down completely, while ours is remaining open for 3 hours on the usual days for urgent care needs. I only know that because of DH's urgent care need last week. So, if you're making no progress, do you really need to wear them right now? Does your dentist have a number you could call to ask?

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Originally Posted by Amethyst I wrote and received lots of letters in my teens and 20's. Picking out the stamps was fun. I always looked at my friends' stamps, and I knew they checked out mine, because comments were exchanged on how pretty the stamp was, whether it was on upside down, etc. But I've barely used a stamp in 10 years, and was down to "forever" stamps well before then. I guess these "old people" are still in the old mode. Kind of goes along with staring at every single piece of meat in the butcher case, to see which one is a teeny bit bigger or something.

I forgot about the butcher case, lol. None of it would be too bothersome if not for the way retail stores have cut back on the customer service staff in ordinary times. I remember the days in the post office or bank when the only empty counter spot would be when someone was on break.

[ivinsfan]

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Originally Posted by tb001 Totally agree. It’s been hugely frustrating to me to talk with my parents in their 80s. We’re essentially on lockdown, home schooling two young kids and only leaving the house for the bare minimum groceries. We’re cratering the economy to keep my parents from being exposed, and their lives have barely changed. Still going out to dinner, playing golf with friends, making unnecessary trips to Costco and Home Depot. Both have underlying conditions and would be unlikely to survive. I went to the grocery store this morning for my first trip out in 10 days and it was full of older people shopping. Easily 70% were over 60. And some of those were accompanying a younger shopper, so there was clearly another option! My guess is many of the older people are less familiar with online shopping options, so the stores are skewing older, but it was still shocking to see. I shudder to think how I would have behaved as a 20 yr old. But at least I know now I was young and stupid!

I see a trend here, somehow we're doing this do "protect the old farts". I'm pretty sure you wouldn't directly exposure either yourself or one of your kids to the virus. Remember back in the day (the 50'S and 60's when people would have chicken pox parties,, if you had several kids you'd rather have them get it all at once and be done with.) It was stupid. Pretty sure no one in your demo it going to have a COVID 19 party.

Don't pretend or imply it's for the old folks.

As for your parents you could just as easily be on here saying the same about your 20 somethings.

If someone of any age goes out unnecessarily and helps continue the spread shame on them...the basic problem they have is disregard for the safety of the masses.

I'm sitting here wanting to point the finger at all the people who have done unnecessary international leisure travel for the last 6 weeks and are pretty much the epicenter of this outbreak. They had to evacuate on US military planes a woman's football team. US citizens "stuck" in a foreign country screaming, Now we want to go home.

[Sunset]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amethyst While far from the worst of my worries, I am perturbed that I have to continue wearing my initial Invisalign trays - which are ony meant for a week's wear - because my dental office shut down the day before I was to get the teeth-trimming treatment, which is critical to correcting my teeth. So I have the aggravation of wearing the trays while making no progress, and only being able to drink water all day (in between gulping food and coffee/milk, then frantically cleaning my teeth and re-inserting the trays, which must be worn 22 hours a day). And no end in sight.

You might want to phone your dentist, I'm thinking, the invisalign trays get your teeth to a certain spot, and now after days/week at that spot, not wearing them will mean no change, just like wearing them but without the hassle.
Later you can continue on with the progressive steps in a few months.

Worth a phone call for sure. Even if calling a different dentist office or calling your dentist emergency number as they should have let you know.

[Sunset]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst .. But I've barely used a stamp in 10 years, and was down to "forever" stamps well before then. I guess these "old people" are still in the old mode. Kind of goes along with staring at every single piece of meat in the butcher case, to see which one is a teeny bit bigger or something.

I have a decade or two of forever stamps

I'm one of those meat starer's, there are differences, and DW has particular meat desires, so life is better if I pick carefully.

[gwraigty]

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Originally Posted by ivinsfan Don't pretend or imply it's for the old folks. ... If someone of any age goes out unnecessarily and helps continue the spread shame on them...the basic problem they have is disregard for the safety of the masses. I'm sitting here wanting to point the finger at all the people who have done unnecessary international leisure travel for the last 6 weeks and are pretty much the epicenter of this outbreak. They had to evacuate on US military planes a woman's football team. US citizens "stuck" in a foreign country screaming, Now we want to go home.

About the part I bolded above, the media is cramming that into our heads, everywhere at every single opportunity, every news report, every daily press conference in my state for sure. "We have to protect the elderly, who are the most vulnerable among us. We have to protect everyone, especially the elderly." I can hear it in my sleep.

So I can relate to the frustration of people whose lives and finances have become severely disrupted, while those we are being urged to protect aren't taking the proper steps to protect themselves and others. If someone can convince their elderly parents - or anyone - to disrupt their routine a little bit, good for them. At least it's been put out there in the open, which is all anyone can do.

Speaking of pointing the finger, have you noticed how high up the list Florida is here:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I know I mentioned before that I thought it wasn't a great idea to let everyone off that cruise ship in Florida to wander about at will. Hmmmm.....

[Ready]

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Originally Posted by gwraigty About the part I bolded above, the media is cramming that into our heads, everywhere at every single opportunity, every news report, every daily press conference in my state for sure. "We have to protect the elderly, who are the most vulnerable among us. We have to protect everyone, especially the elderly." I can hear it in my sleep. So I can relate to the frustration of people whose lives and finances have become severely disrupted, while those we are being urged to protect aren't taking the proper steps to protect themselves and others. If someone can convince their elderly parents - or anyone - to disrupt their routine a little bit, good for them. At least it's been put out there in the open, which is all anyone can do. Speaking of pointing the finger, have you noticed how high up the list Florida is here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ I know I mentioned before that I thought it wasn't a great idea to let everyone off that cruise ship in Florida to wander about at will. Hmmmm.....

According to this website, only 178 people have been designated as “recovered” in the United States out of a total of over 30,000 people infected. How could the number be this low?

[Mdlerth]

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Originally Posted by gwraigty In my 20's, I did many stupid things, but will only tell this one right now. There was a raging blizzard outside and I was going to return some library books I'd just finished and get some more. The books weren't due that day. My grandfather shamed me into staying home by telling me that it was people like me going out in a blizzard when it wasn't necessary that made it worse for everyone who had to be out driving that day. I haven't gone out in a blizzard since, unless it was absolutely necessary.

In your defense, if that's the dumbest thing you ever did, you're Einstein compared to me.

Now, in my defense, I did learn from my mistakes. At least, from most of them.

[Mdlerth]

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Originally Posted by Ready According to this website, only 178 people have been designated as “recovered” in the United States out of a total of over 30,000 people infected. How could the number be this low?

Roger this. Does the US have different criteria for determining "recovery"?

[Sunset]

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Originally Posted by Ready According to this website, only 178 people have been designated as “recovered” in the United States out of a total of over 30,000 people infected. How could the number be this low?

Because 2 weeks ago we only had 435 cases, and it probably takes 2 maybe longer weeks to fully recover (no virus count).

Amazing, when you think about it , in 2 weeks we have gone from 435 cases to 32,356 so far today

<edit: fixed the high number as the site I quoted had it wrong for a short while.