Saving Lives or Saving the Economy - False Choice?

[MichaelB]

Can we please stop the snark and sarcasm? It’s hard enough to have a thoughtful discussion, this makes it so much more challenging for everyone else.

 

[brewer12345]

Can we please stop the snark and sarcasm? It’s hard enough to have a thoughtful discussion, this makes it so much more challenging for everyone else.

Actually, I was being quite serious. Anyone proposing that we blithely accept a million deaths in the US alone should be prepared to be one of them.

 

[Aerides]

Actually, I was being quite serious. Anyone proposing that we blithely accept a million deaths in the US alone should be prepared to be one of them.

it's not just you, it's pages...

 

[brewer12345]

it's not just you, it's pages...

Just the usual cheery Easter discussion...

 

[donheff]

Just the usual cheery Easter discussion...

LOL. You’ve been a Debbie Downer lately but that one made me laugh.

 

[cathy63]

If they had universal healthcare, some think this issue wouldn't exist.

I'm not sure who the "some" are in your comment, but they need to get a more accurate definition of universal healthcare. It does not mean that there will always be enough resources for every possible need under all possible conditions; it just means that all people have access to the existing resources without consideration of their personal finances. During a pandemic, universal healthcare systems like Sweden's still run short of resources and they do need a triage system for allocating them among patients.

 

[rk911]

If they had universal healthcare, some think this issue wouldn't exist.

they=sweden? i presume they do have univ. health care. but i don’t see how single-payer UHC in an of itself wud have stopped the virus. i call as my first witnesses Italy, Spain and France. UHC <> unlimited resources.

 

[Independent]

Actually, I was being quite serious. Anyone proposing that we blithely accept a million deaths in the US alone should be prepared to be one of them.

I'm not willing to "blithely accept a million deaths". But, I am willing to take my chances (I'm 72) in a more open economy.

I think a state like Minnesota can reasonably open up ordinary retail and allow counter service restaurants to open their dining rooms with a 50% reduction in seating, for example.

And, I think we should roll out antibody testing as widely as possible, as soon as we've got tests with very low false positives.

 

[Bigdawg]

I think if we had universal healthcare, the system would have been a bit more used to caring for a larger quantity of people.

Where did you get the idea that "universal healthcare" could accommodate a larger quanity of people?

 

[Bigdawg]

I'm not willing to "blithely accept a million deaths". But, I am willing to take my chances (I'm 72) in a more open economy.

I think a state like Minnesota can reasonably open up ordinary retail and allow counter service restaurants to open their dining rooms with a 50% reduction in seating, for example.

And, I think we should roll out antibody testing as widely as possible, as soon as we've got tests with very low false positives.

We accept the 2.8 million deaths every year anyway from all causes. And at 22,000 current covid deaths in the USA I doubt we will get anywhere near a million. I doubt(we'll never know) we would have gotten to a million w/out a shutdown/quarentine. I have seen statistics rise for suicide hotline use and domenstic violence hotline use. As someone else mentioned "I hopt the cure isn't worse than the virus".

 

[braumeister]

 

[USGrant1962]

To the original question, embrace the healing power of AND.

 

[statsman]

As someone else mentioned "I hopt the cure isn't worse than the virus".

Yeah. I wonder what the responses would be on a forum called we-need-our-jobs-to-survive.org, which in pure numbers would swamp just about any other group in this country.

 

[Markola]

Also to the original question, and as someone who might well lose my job early in May due to Coronavirus, meaning I have a personal stake in the answer: If the unemployment rate hits 10, 20 or even 30%, doesn’t that mean the employment rate is 90, 80 or 70%? There is a lot of pain and peril for many real people and it might sound callous to say it but, even so, this is not my definition of Armageddon.

So, I hope we save a lot of lives and then we’ll naturally set about repairing (not saving) the economy.

 

[youbet]

I think a state like Minnesota can reasonably open up ordinary retail and allow counter service restaurants to open their dining rooms with a 50% reduction in seating, for example.

I'd appreciate your comment on this please.

DW and I have a reservation for the first week of June for a lakeside cabin at a little resort in far NW Minnesota. There are about a half dozen cabins, each with its own pier. You do your own cooking or go to one of the two restaurants in the nearby, tiny town. The only activity is fishing, fishing and more fishing.

DW and I would be the only ones staying in the cabin, although we know, and would like to visit with, some of the other folks that will be there that week.

We know Minnesota seems to have better COVID-19 numbers than NE Illinois where we live. But we're a bit shaken by a recent communication from our nephew in Minneapolis that his wife was just diagnosed with COVID-19 (not tested positive, just informed by the ER doc that her symptoms are most likely COVID-19). That got us thinking......

We're geezers and have minor health issues that have caused us to really be careful so far.

Far NW Minnesota in 7 weeks? We really want to go but it's hard to know what to do. We're just watching for news out of that area and waiting for now.

 

[ivinsfan]

I'd appreciate your comment on this please.

DW and I have a reservation for the first week of June for a lakeside cabin at a little resort in far NW Minnesota. There are about a half dozen cabins, each with its own pier. You do your own cooking or go to one of the two restaurants in the nearby, tiny town. The only activity is fishing, fishing and more fishing.

DW and I would be the only ones staying in the cabin, although we know, and would like to visit with, some of the other folks that will be there that week.

We know Minnesota seems to have better COVID-19 numbers than NE Illinois where we live. But we're a bit shaken by a recent communication from our nephew in Minneapolis that his wife was just diagnosed with COVID-19 (not tested positive, just informed by the ER doc that her symptoms are most likely COVID-19). That got us thinking......

We're geezers and have minor health issues that have caused us to really be careful so far.

Far NW Minnesota in 7 weeks? We really want to go but it's hard to know what to do. We're just watching for news out of that area and waiting for now.

You know between 93- 95 percent of people actually tested in MN are testing negative..so that is a seat of the pants diagnosis.

 

[Bigdawg]

Far NW Minnesota in 7 weeks?

That's the only question I see in your post. And it's not really a question. Do you have to make a decision sometime prior to the 7 weeks? Like at week 5 or so? Lots will change in 7 weeks. Check the local info for that remote location. Probably not much COVID going on up there. Good luck.

 

[Independent]

I'd appreciate your comment on this please.

DW and I have a reservation for the first week of June for a lakeside cabin at a little resort in far NW Minnesota. There are about a half dozen cabins, each with its own pier. You do your own cooking or go to one of the two restaurants in the nearby, tiny town. The only activity is fishing, fishing and more fishing.

DW and I would be the only ones staying in the cabin, although we know, and would like to visit with, some of the other folks that will be there that week.

We know Minnesota seems to have better COVID-19 numbers than NE Illinois where we live. But we're a bit shaken by a recent communication from our nephew in Minneapolis that his wife was just diagnosed with COVID-19 (not tested positive, just informed by the ER doc that her symptoms are most likely COVID-19). That got us thinking......

We're geezers and have minor health issues that have caused us to really be careful so far.

Far NW Minnesota in 7 weeks? We really want to go but it's hard to know what to do. We're just watching for news out of that area and waiting for now.

I think
"The state could open up some dining rooms without without rapidly exceeding it's hospital capacity. Some young people would start to get their lives back"
is different from
"As a 72 year-old, I would eat in a restaurant dining room".

Age matters here.

Have you seen this map? https://www.twincities.com/coronavirus-mn/cases-map/

The risk is people bringing the virus into that county from the outside. They would probably be people staying at tourist spots next to lakes. Sharing a meal with other tourists would definitely bother me. Visiting across an open space, not so much.

I agree with BD above, I'd postpone the decision as long as possible. MN, or that county, might decide they don't want tourists this year.

 

[Independent]

Yeah. I wonder what the responses would be on a forum called we-need-our-jobs-to-survive.org, which in pure numbers would swamp just about any other group in this country.

+1

Short term, most of the unemployed in that group should be okay due to the $600 extra. But, if their employers fail as the economy stalls, they don't have jobs to go back to.

 

[Markola]

That's the only question I see in your post. And it's not really a question. Do you have to make a decision sometime prior to the 7 weeks? Like at week 5 or so? Lots will change in 7 weeks. Check the local info for that remote location. Probably not much COVID going on up there. Good luck.

Yes, and it’s not just a question of whether you’ll catch it but also whether you’ll bring it. I live in St. Paul and the first messages we heard from up north were “Please don’t visit your cabins.”

https://www.startribune.com/in-minn...-there-s-trepidation-over-visitors/568996922/

The few rural hospitals are not able to handle major outbreaks. The governor just extended the stay at home order till May 4 and could extend it again. Other than that, I can’t really advise how long you might get the stink eye from some friendly Minnesotans as you drive across the state to a small town on vacation with Illinois plates, don’t-cha-know.

 

[gerntz]

they=sweden? i presume they do have univ. health care. but i don’t see how single-payer UHC in an of itself wud have stopped the virus. i call as my first witnesses Italy, Spain and France. UHC <> unlimited resources.

We agree.

 

[foxfirev5]

Yes, and it’s not just a question of whether you’ll catch it but also whether you’ll bring it. I live in St. Paul and the first messages we heard from up north were “Please don’t visit your cabins.”

https://www.startribune.com/in-minn...-there-s-trepidation-over-visitors/568996922/

The rural hospitals are not strong enough to handle major outbreaks. The governor just extended the stay at home order till May 4 and could extend it again. Other than that, it’s anyone’s guess how long you might get the stink eye from others in NW Minnesota driving around on vacation with Illinois plates.

Same here in Michigan. As of Friday 4/10 we had to decide which location was our home and stay there. No visits to the lakehouse. No power boats. We'll see how that works out in a couple of weeks.

 

[gerntz]

I'm not sure who the "some" are in your comment, but they need to get a more accurate definition of universal healthcare. It does not mean that there will always be enough resources for every possible need under all possible conditions; it just means that all people have access to the existing resources without consideration of their personal finances. During a pandemic, universal healthcare systems like Sweden's still run short of resources and they do need a triage system for allocating them among patients.

That's your definition of what it means. People of more wealth still access better care in those places than the poor. Canadians have come here over & over when the can't get what they need in a timely manner or at all.

And if universal healthcare is making choices as to who gets it, it's not universal but selective. Oh, that's what the US has. Difference is the US admits it.

"some" are those who have posted here saying universal healthcare would have solved this huge problem.

 

[audreyh1]

I find the Sweden experiment very interesting given their unique approach. As of yesterday they have had 899 confirmed deaths. Given a population of a little over 10 million, that is a .009% death rate (also currently a 0.1% infection rate). In the end it might be a good comparison to the approaches other counties are taking.

Interesting. Same population as state of GA, yet twice as many deaths! GA had had a couple of nasty outbreaks early March before imposing strict social distancing measures, initially county wide, then state wide.

If they are just starting it could get much worse.

 

[MichaelB]

Thanks for an interesting discussion