Tough dinner conversation with adult live-in daughter

[Chuckanut]

Issue #1....Fear of Corona Virus....According to the CDC, the survival rate for folks 69 or lower is 99%.....You certainly need to make your own decision on that but not sure that means no-one in your home can socialize....Again, your decision but check out the science.

I will accept this as true as far as it goes. But, we need to go further.

For example, we need some science to get these answers....

How many people who recovered required hospitalization?
How long were they sick for?
How intense was the sickness?
What was the cost (money, time, effort) of treating them?
How many are showing signs of being 'Longhaulers'?

I think when we discuss the consequences of getting this or any disease we need to know more than death rates. Alas, most of the time we do not get/know this information.

 

[ivinsfan]

^^^ I guess that I don't see how long this lasts as impact what is prudent to do today.

I didn't say it has anything to do with being prudent, I said it's stressful not knowing how long this will go on...generally sacrifices are simpler and easy when you know a possible end date. that's human nature I think...my Mom and her little brother got shipped away to the English countryside during the blitz. For a "little while" till "things were better" they ended up seeing their parents once in almost 2 years.

 

[dak2018]

The risk / reward assessment is different for every individual. I have college age daughters that are taking this seriously, as neither wants to be a carrier or have the burden of infecting others. They also understand the low probability health consequences to themselves directly, but choose to suffer the short term disruption to their lives in order to personally and as a community keep things moving in the right direction.

Then there are the kids that are in full party mode.

Two groups, same age but different social "needs" and different assessment of risk.

If the daughter in this case belonged to the "I need to have a active higher risk social life group", then she probably simply needs to move out as that is incompatible with OPs desire to live a low risk lifestyle for now. She can get roommates - even strangers if need be. That is a logical consequence of her choices. Or, she can suck it up for a bit longer and engage in low risk social activities - like limited engagements in a outdoor space.

 

[EastWest Gal]

ratface..this is a tough one. My heart breaks for all the younger age groups whose lives have been upended by this pandemic. And now, Winter is on its way which may cause even more isolation for them (all of us).

One point of consideration that I have not seen yet in this thread: Even IF she moved out, you and your wife would still see her and she would still visit with you, right? Or If she moved out would you ban her from your home entirely until this is over?
Trying to assess the risk of a daughter who appears to be moderately socializing living with you versus one that doesn't and will visit and be around you anyway. Seems to me either way there is some element of risk involved.

I guess it depends on what makes you and your wife the most comfortable. Perhaps after socializing she will agree to 1) shower 2) take clothes off outside the home and then wash them 3) sanitize everything she can possibly can and 4) any other virus preventive measures you can think of.

The main way the virus is spread is 1. Droplet, 2. airborne, 3. contact. All that changing clothes outside, immediate showering, washing helps only with contact, the least likely of the three. Probably only necessary with health care workers in contact with Covid patients.

There is a pandemic going on. All of our lives are on hold. Deciding to behave badly because of some perceived unfairness is immature. No one is entitled to party at the expense of the lives of their parents, who are supporting them. Throwing food is drama that should stop by age 6, if not younger.

A lot of us have adult children living with us, who don't risk their parents' lives by going out drinking and partying on the weekends, during a pandemic. DS is working at home, does his socializing online. He helps with cooking, laundry, and yard work. He has a masters degree in Music Education and has not been able to find a job in the field. He's looking at taking courses in computer work, and he's teaching himself the coding languages.

She needs to consider your health or move out. You can help finance that move if you wish, with direct rent support, if needed. But being on her own is more than just financial. It means paying for and doing many things she takes for granted, making time to shop and cook, no help with laundry, budgeting. Financing being on your own is actually a small part of the responsibility equation. And when she moves out, she shouldn't come and visit inside until the pandemic is over/vaccination. including holidays.

Have a family meeting (not at mealtime). Go over options, and the pros and cons. Work with her, but she also needs to work with you. Don't accept toddler behavior from a 26-year old.

 

[Brat]

Start looking for a studio for her to move to, ideally one close to her place of employment. Tell her that her behavior puts you and her mother at risk so rather than her living a life of regret she must find a separate place to live for the next 24 months. If cost is an issue consider funding it for a couple hundred.

I remember my Mother saying: "Finish your education, get a job and a place of your own. Until then you live by my rules."

 

[Amethyst]

Fairness can reasonably be invoked where there is
a) some control over everyone's circumstances (e.g. in a school or workplace,or in law) or
b) people really care for one another.

In this case, it's a loving family, so (b) applies. Unlike a group of unrelated people, in a family parents and child have every reason to expect each other to consider each other's needs "fairly."

From my perspective, the child is being unfair to expect 60-ish parents, one a cancer survivor, to absorb the COVID risk attendant on her second-hand social activity. But, I don't know or love this child, so I don't know how I would act in Ratface's place.

The situation is further muddied by changing social norms that surround "still living at home at 26." People my age, when we were 26, saw this in a different light than those who are 26 today.

Ratface, I feel sure, will do the right thing.

Where did this misconception that life is, or ever was, 'fair' come from anyway?

 

[Brat]

Not knowing the zoning laws impacting the OP's residence it may be possible to park a 'tiny home' or travel trailer on the property. They will need to provide power and sanitation but after this is over the trailer will be sellable.

 

[AZ2020]

Our daughter (18) was to attend college out of state this fall.

We told her she can choose.
1: Go and do not come back for Thanksgiving (and maybe Christmas) and if you get sick we will not come and get you.
2: Stay at home and attend college remotely.

We laid out the rules and let her decide. Maybe your daughter needs to make a similar choice.

 

[Gumby]

...
I do indeed feel sorry that many young people are being deprived of some of the fun that we got to enjoy at that age... but the reality is that hopefully it will only be for another year or so....

When I was 26, I was cruising around underwater in a submarine for months at a time without seeing sunlight, breathing fresh air, eating fresh food or having any contact with the outside world, all the while risking my life to defend my fellow citizens. So my sympathy for young people temporarily denied wine tastings and Halloween parties is limited.

 

[Lewis Clark]

When I was 26, I was cruising around underwater in a submarine for months at a time without seeing sunlight, breathing fresh air, eating fresh food or having any contact with the outside world, all the while risking my life to defend my fellow citizens. So my sympathy for young people temporarily denied wine tastings and Halloween parties is limited.

+1

I saw a great saying online somewhere near the start of the plague. Might have been ER.org. Something like:

"Your grandparents were called to war. You are being called to sit at home on the couch. You can do this and it isn't hard."

 

[MrsHaloFIRE]

Your house, your rules. She can adapt her lifestyle or her living location. Either is fine

 

[Nemo2]

The situation is further muddied by changing social norms that surround "still living at home at 26." People my age, when we were 26, saw this in a different light than those who are 26 today.

I was gone at 17...today, from drive-by collective empirical observation of that cohort, it appears that the level of thinking that one knows it all has, (contradictorily and amusingly), risen in tandem with dependency.

 

[JustCurious]

Where did this misconception that life is, or ever was, 'fair' come from anyway?

Your point is well taken the life is often unfair. But I think it's reasonable to expect fair treatment from family members.

 

[Nemo2]

But I think it's reasonable to expect fair treatment from family members.

As long as it's reciprocated, and the parameters & circumstances are fully understood by all parties.

 

[ratface]

I love all the minds whirling to find solutions and I thank all of you. Lots of food for thought. I do accept responsibility for enabling to some degree as my outlook on the shortness and fragility of life dramatically changed 10 years ago with a very serious cancer diagnosis. I remember many of you helping me thru that period and surprised how many remember me. I am aware this also skews my view on covid more than others. My wife and I take it seriously. I relish every moment with my daughter. We are in fact a very close family and I could not fathom being isolated from her without visits. Those could be managed with some precautions.

This all happened rather suddenly. It seems she and her cohorts were really trying but fatigue is wearing on us all. She is also in the minority of living at home so her friends have much more freedom. That said I do see some immaturity as mentioned by some, or perhaps just lack of significant life experience as we all know bad things do happen to good people in life.

Her new job just happened, it's the start of a new school year and she was hired a week into the start of this year after an unbelievable amount of job searching. The decision to move out early 2021 just seemed logical, it's the year of the unknown and she was just trying to get settled financially. We have been working on that, moving retirement accounts and opening new ones. She really is a great saver, well organized and likes things to make sense on paper. I am beginning to see some positives coming her way as this may be the impetus that was needed all along.

 

[Rianne]

We live in an university community. 50,000 students are on campus right now. They get tested twice a week and are not allowed to enter any university building without their cell app that shows they tested negative. Our dorms are open as well.

These kids go home to their families. I just don’t know how families deal with this. We’re using the saliva test and get results very quickly. The infection rate is .3% on campus.

OP, thousands of families are walking on egg shells during this time. We don’t have kids, but I won’t go near my 20 something nieces and nephews. Meaning close contact of course. I don’t think there is one right answer. This is a big issue with grade/high school children as well, who are in school in our community. Teachers, parents, bus drivers...everyone is taking risk. Actually one of the bus drivers got COVID and passed away in a nearby town.

 

[audreyh1]

Start looking for a studio for her to move to, ideally one close to her place of employment. Tell her that her behavior puts you and her mother at risk so rather than her living a life of regret she must find a separate place to live for the next 24 months. If cost is an issue consider funding it for a couple hundred.

I remember my Mother saying: "Finish your education, get a job and a place of your own. Until then you live by my rules."

Gosh, a long term stay hotel is even an option if she wants her social life unencumbered!

 

[DenverGuy42]

I think you have two issues and they are not related......

Issue #1....Fear of Corona Virus....According to the CDC, the survival rate for folks 69 or lower is 99%.....You certainly need to make your own decision on that but not sure that means no-one in your home can socialize....Again, your decision but check out the science.

Issue #2....Daughter living w/you.....That's a tough one and if it is your house, it's your rules. This may be the time for your daughter to decide to move on.....

I'd work thru them as two issues.

Good luck...both issues are tough and there is no right answer...just decisions.

Yes, let's check out the science.

There is death as a possible outcome, that is for sure. The IFR (infected fatality rate, % of death per estimated infected) varies in that age group by geography widely but let's say it is "just" 1% (or at least 5 to 10 times that of the flu).

The existence of pre-existing conditions (someone mentioned the poster may have fought cancer previously, that leaves you with a weakened immune system) will cause that number to rise, but for grin's - let's go with "just" 1%. (I don't know about you, but if someone told me that on my overseas flight, 3-4 people would die each time randomly, I'm not so sure I would have flown like I used to).

How about hospitalizations. People in their age group make up about 33% of the hospitalizations (https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html). We have a lot of people in the hospital - hospital capacity is the reason we had stay at home orders and the continuing mask orders, we were and are at risk of overwhelming their capacity. Everything we are doing is to keep hospitalizations down so we can attempt to treat those that need it (don't need repeats of NYC or worse - Italy).

If you make it to the hospital and don't die - you are OK right? Wrong.
While you focus on IFR (because death is non-reversible), we should not forget that people that get hospitalized face a really hard road to recovery.

Once you have to be hospitalized - you run a very high risk of long term issues. How long term? We don't know yet because many people that got them back in March still have them.

this is just one sample article of thousands. search around for "long haulers" and ask yourself - would you like to spend your time in such a state as these people find themselves in? My son got lyme disease, the effects of which are a lot like many of those described by long haulers. It is quite simply life changing for him. It's been many years and he is still very slowing "getting better", I put that in quotes - because I don't think he'll ever be the same.

https://abc13.com/covid-19-hospitalized-patients-brain-disease-long-term-effects/6872459/

> A new study released this week, found **one-third of hospitalized COVID-19 patients develop a brain disease** caused by inflammation in the brain.

> Dr. Gustavo Roman, Professor of neurology at Houston Methodist, said the deadly virus can cause a variety of long term health effects to several organs which can lead to chronic illness, headaches, fatigue, and prolonged loss in taste and smell.

> "The damage has been made and we don't know how long it's going to last," Dr. Roman said. "It is a virus that has multiple weapons that affect the blood vessels, the lungs, the brain. **It can produce stroke, heart attacks, and a number of combinations. It can affect the kidney and the liver so it is a very dangerous enemy.**"

> Dr. Roman said the best line of defense is prevention.



so, while death might not be the outcome, a long term disability affecting the brain, the heart, the lungs and other organs exists.


so yes, agreed 100% - check the science and be aware that death is only but one possible outcome. There are other extremely undesirable outcomes as well.


that and a 26 year old is a fully grown adult, capable of reason and logic - and capable of finding roommates to move out with and "live the life".

 

[ivinsfan]

It isn't even really about the science...if the OP and spouse want to isolate it's call..let's now get into masks or long haulers here.

A lot of people are going to face this how much exposure am I comfortable with concerning family issue as we go into the holiday season.

 

[EveryLady]

I am in a similar situation. My daughter a college student senior lives / lived at home while she attends a city university. I'm now 67. Her classes are online at this time but she has an in-person internship for two days a week in a high-risk setting. We made the decision early last summer that she would need to relocate. That was the only way 'out.' Whatever money is spent is more than worth it to not (1) endanger personal relationships or (2) endanger health.

Once that's accepted as the solution, the problem then shifted to the locale. DD ended up moving into an apartment with her boyfriend who just got his first professional job. But if needed she would have shared with a complete stranger. Or got a room in a YWCA-like facility for young female interns.

Until my daughter left, she social distanced from her boyfriend and others. There was a night last March when I realized our quarantining with the boyfriend was not going to work. DD was horrified. I shed tears. She realized the next morning her reaction was excessive. From that time forward, she was totally on-board - not a complaint or frown about the endless months to come with mom. Knowing there was an end-date - that she would be leaving for a place we were then searching for probably helped.

 

[DenverGuy42]

It isn't even really about the science...

yeah, it sort of is about the science.

If the science said "this is a nothing burger, you are not going to suffer at all from this" - as people are wont to say - then the advice would be different.

However the science doesn't say that at all. The best defense is prevention (and yeah, that includes masks, social distancing, not going to restaurants, avoiding crowds in general - they are all fair game). And a grown up 26 year old can either play ball at home with mom and dad in charge - or get roommates and live the life they want to live.

 

[ivinsfan]

yeah, it sort of is about the science.

If the science said "this is a nothing burger, you are not going to suffer at all from this" - as people are wont to say - then the advice would be different.

However the science doesn't say that at all. The best defense is prevention (and yeah, that includes masks, social distancing, not going to restaurants, avoiding crowds in general - they are all fair game). And a grown up 26 year old can either play ball at home with mom and dad in charge - or get roommates and live the life they want to live.

What I meant was the OP doesn't need to use science to justify his wishes to stay isolated, it's his decision....

 

[DenverGuy42]

What I meant was the OP doesn't need to use science to justify his wishes to stay isolated, it's his decision....

oh, sorry about that. thought it was in reference to the post right above yours...

 

[harllee]

Looking at it from the 26 year old daughter's prospective--how would she feel if she gave the virus to a parent and they died or suffered a severe long lasting illness. True story--A friend of mine in his 40s went to a work event early in the summer--no mask, no social distancing. He got Covid but had no symptoms. He had dinner with his father (in his 60s). Father caught Covid from him and within a few days died. My friend later learned that the work event was a "super spreader" and many people there caught the virus, including my friend, who never had any symptoms. All this happened several months ago and now my friend is having terrible guilt and is in therapy.

 

[Walt34]

At 26, I would tell her that it's time to move out of my house if she can't follow some basic, common sense safety rules.

+1

We have already had this issue arise in family. Fortunately they live on the other side of the Chesapeake Bay from us so no direct contact. Airheaded bimbo college-age niece comes home for a break, shortly afterward comes down with COVID-19 and exposes visiting 86-year-old aunt, who then has to go back to the nursing home and endure two weeks of isolation in a room (not even her normal room) with two books, a TV, and a telephone. Better than solitary in prison, but barely.

I'd tell the selfish college kid to grow up and move out. NOW. She wants to "live her life"? Fine. She can deal with all the complexities that come with it, including how to pay for it.