Welcome Young Dreamers!

re: the financial services/management companies.

I'll be pleased to tell you exactly where to invest your money for half of what any financial planner will. And the advice will probably be better.

Or you can just ask and we'll all tell you for free.

I prefer the first method, but I dont think your results will be very different ;)
 
Re:  On financial advisors

3degrees,

If you could figure out how to put together a $2M share, you can probably figure out how to invest it.

The biggest challenge is finding the time to learn, and the next-biggest is finding the time to do the work. The first takes a book or two, and the second probably takes a day or two of paperwork spread over several weeks.

At your worth, it's your choice. If you choose to be blissful, then give your money to someone like Vanguard or Fidelity or Tweedy, Browne and tell them you want them to manage it for you. It'll cost you about 1-2% per year and they're big enough for you to reasonably expect them to adhere to some sort of ethical standard. Of course you'll also have to fend off weekly requests to buy this annuity, that charitable remainder trust, the other living trust, etc.

I just finished reading William Bernstein's "The Four Pillars of Investment". It's the best explanation of the process that I've EVER read, as evidenced by the fact that I had already seen most of the books in his bibliography. If you don't finish it before your last day at work, then park all your money in a money-market account until you have read it. Bernstein favors passive investments using index funds and rebalancing every year or two. Once it's set up you can spend about an hour a quarter on it.

I wouldn't recommend Schwab. I weaseled my way into a "Private Client" dinner of theirs last week and it was an amazing marketing performance. You can read about it here-- http://www.fundalarm.com/wwwboard/messages/91333.html
 
3deb / Fin Adv

Nords, great writeup on the Schwab dinner! Thanks!

3degrees, congratulations on your accomplishments. I agree you are a far better financial planner for you than anyone else is. It's scary at first because you can be overwhelmed by the investment options, but there are a few simple "no brainer" (but occasionally challenged) plans to begin with, then as you expand your knowledge you can diversify and try other investments. My no brainer investment is a mix of Vanguard stock index funds (Index 500 and total market) and a Vanguard bond fund. I'm quite confident I'm not being fleeced by Vanguard, and I understand what my money is doing and why it's there.

I'm not claiming my mix is The One True Investment Plan (imagine a chorus of angels singing while reading that), but I think most everyone will agree it's much better than what either the mattress or your average financial planner will get you. Hang around these boards for a couple of weeks and you'll be confident about beating the mattresses and CFP's, too.
 
Nords, thanks for the writeup on Schwab. I used to be a Schwab customer until they sold out their UK ops to Barclays. Their execution only brokerage used to be fairly cheap here, but competition has put paid to that. I do wonder what a bunch of over 70's are doing looking at stock pickers for their savings. If they were giving fair advice they should tell the audiance to put 20 or 30% in a Vanguard equity fund and buy bonds with the rest. But then we all know who really paid for that dinner. ;)
 
I wouldn't listen to an AMEX pitch for $50.00. I sat
through one for free, years ago. It was like having
root canal work with no anesthetic.

John Galt
 
Super. I signed up with them for free years ago because they had some deal with my credit union to link my account there with amex for trading. In other words, I could buy stock and have the money vacuumed out of my checking account, and transfer money easily between accounts...I know thats de rigeur these days but it wasnt then.

They screwed up every transaction I did. Mostly I believe on purpose because every time I did a transaction I got the highest fee from their fee table, and had to call them to adjust it. I bought some stock once and they bought it four times for me. I guess it felt good the first time they did it...

Later when I sold the same stock I got the transaction paperwork, but the stock still sat in my account. Fortunately when it actually DID sell the price was a buck a share higher.

The piece de resistance, and as Dave Barry says, I am not making this up, was when I bailed out on them and had them transfer some Janus funds I had with them directly over to Janus. They transferred AMEX's entire holdings of Janus funds for all of their customers into my account. I still have the monthly statement from Janus showing something like 30 million bucks in my account. I had to authorize AMEX to withdraw all their customers money back out of my account.

Little b@stards didnt even let me keep the couple of days interest on the funds. :'(
 
Hi everyone,

I am also new here and want to become active in this Forum.  I am a 39 yr old civil servant who is elible to retire at age 47 but must retire by age 56.  So, I have a nine year window to retire  starting in 2012.
My employer is giving me health insurance when I retire (I pay 25%) and a pension of 50% of my pay. I will also get a social security supplement from the day I retire till age 62 when SSA starts. I estimate this supplement to be about $850.00/mo. in todays dollars. I have $250,000 in my 401K invested in stock funds.  I contribute $13000/yr (the max), and my company does a 50% match. According to my calculations assuming 10% compound interest rate my 401k balance will be $938,000 at age 47, and $2,519,000 at age 56.
What kind of questions should I be asking myself?  How far off are my calculations/assumptions?  I appreciate any help I can get.
 
Hi zbwmy,

I'd probably ratchet that 10% compounded return down a ways. In Quicken Financial Planner I use a 2.5% real return (4% inflation and 6.5% return). I'd rather err on the conservative side.
 
What kind of questions should I be asking myself? How far off are my calculations/assumptions? I appreciate any help I can get.
You'll probably get more flak for 10% annualized returns, but don't let it discourage you. (I felt discouraged at first when my own ballpark figuring turned out to be vastly overoptimistic.) You are in a very good and strong position financially, well above the average American. Keep reading around here and you'll see what current-day early retirees are living off of and you'll gradually become more comfortable with your outlook.
 
Hi zbwmy,

I'd probably ratchet that 10% compounded return down a ways. In Quicken Financial Planner I use a 2.5% real return (4% inflation and 6.5% return). I'd rather err on the conservative side.

My 10% rate is not adjusted for inflation. I am using the 10% as a goal for earnings in my 401k. I understand that the balances I mentioned having at retirement are in todays dollars and are not adjusted for inflation. When I look at stock funds and such, should I not be thinking 8 or 10% and always factoring in inflation? Am I mixing apples and oranges? I use 3% for my inflation rate and 2% for a COLA.
 
When I look at stock funds and such, should I not be thinking 8 or 10% and always factoring in inflation?
In my opinion, no. There is a range of potential outcomes, and 10% is certainly one of them, but I don't believe the next decade or so is likely to produce an annualized 10% (or even 8%) nominal return from these levels.

One more thing - I would not be comfortable with a 100% stock allocation. That being said, you appear to have such an incredible package of retirement benefits that you will likely do just fine whether the return is 2% or 10%, depending on your expenses.
 
Yep, in most analyses I've seen, more than 70% stock simply buys you more risk/volatillity, and less then 40% stock buys you less return without much less risk/volatility.

"Real" rates of return (minus expenses and inflation) by most experts ranking should be 3-6% for a balanced portfolio. Bernstein says 3-3.5% "real", Bogle says 6-9% before expenses and inflation, or about 3.5-6 "real".

The "shoot the moon" stocks like small cap value, foreign and emerging markets are all up a LOT in the past year, so I doubt those have a lot of leg left in them.

Spread the money around, hope for something closer to that 6% "real", and dont take on any more risk than you need to in order to squeeze an extra half percentage point out.
 
I will probably not retire until I'm 56, thats 17 years away. My choices of investment in our 401k are limited to 5 indexed funds: govt securities, s&p500, whilshire 4500, bond fund, and a Europe and east Asia stock fund.
I was planning on staying all stock until I get a little closer to retirement, then diversify.
Ideas?
 
Hello zbwmy,

I have about 14 years to ER at 50. The real market return (adjusted for inflation) is about 7% (11% market - 4% inflation). 17 years is a long time in the market. My advise is to stay in the market and hopefully reap the better (historical) returns, provided you have the stomach for it. Sounds like you do if you have a quarter mil in the 401k already. Using 7% real returns, your 401 should be ball parked at about 710k in 9 years in today's dollars and 1.45 mil in 17 years in today's dollars. Why make it confusing by working in future dollar years? BTW, your figures were correct as far as I could tell.

The 5% number might be just a little high for a safe withdrawal rate. The numbers I had run on FIRE calc for 90% safe with a 40 year payout gave me a 4.8% withdrawal rate. This depends on your circumstances and investment choices though. You need to add in your own SS and such. Use this number multiplied by your savings and add in your $850 supplemental, which is worth about a quarter mil in a lump, and there you are. I think you'll find the advise in the other posts to be on the conservative side which I tend to agree with. I now use a 6% real return rate for my ER finance projections. Previously, I was using 7% for the return calculations. These numbers are just used for projections anyway. Don't sweat using the "correct" numbers, your portfolio is going to deliver what it does based on how the market performs. The only things you really have control over (meaning the stuff you should be concerned/worried about) is the investment rate and the investment types.

You asked about the types of questions you should be asking yourself. My suggestion is ask yourself if you want to or need to work until your 56. You can't buy back years of your life, but you might be able to do fine with a little less than $1.5 mil (in today's dollars) plus SS. You might want to look at other aspects of your lifestyle and see if you want to tweak something to see if you can/want to save a bit more outside your 401k.

Cheers,

Chris
 
Spread the money around, hope for something closer to that 6% "real", and dont take on any more risk than you need to in order to squeeze an extra half percentage point out.
For now, I agree with you, but to check us both I'll pick at it a bit: Is your asset allocation advice the same for someone who's withdrawing and someone who's 15+ years from withdrawals? You say don't increase risk to get an extra half percent, but if we're not taking withdrawals then where's the risk? And a half point annual return compounded over 15+ years adds up to something, although I'm too lazy to calculate what it adds up to.
 
Chris,

Thanks for the reply. Just so I get started off right here, I have been using my expected rate of return (example 10%) for predicting my 401k balance in the future. I know that that figure has to be adjusted of inflation. Are most people using a "real rate of return" figure (example 6%) for their predictions? I find this confusing because any calculations I do I know are in todays dollars. Keeping everything in todays dollars seems easier to me than adjusting now for inflation. My pension estimates from my employer are in todays dollars. My SSA estimates from the SSA are in todays dollars.

Mark
 
For now, I agree with you, but to check us both I'll pick at it a bit: Is your asset allocation advice the same for someone who's withdrawing and someone who's 15+ years from withdrawals? You say don't increase risk to get an extra half percent, but if we're not taking withdrawals then where's the risk? And a half point annual return compounded over 15+ years adds up to something, although I'm too lazy to calculate what it adds up to.

How about a qualified "maybe"? The maybe depends on the persons stomach for risk, and thats usually different when its a piece of paper you look at quarterly vs the source of your daily bread.

That having been said, I would recommend a stock portion of no less than 60 or more than 65 for a pre-withdrawal type, and something in the 50-60% range for a withdrawing type.

The way I have things allocated divides the asset classes up into taxable and IRA in a way that separates the riskier classes away from my "daily bread". My taxable account has large cap value, short to intermediate bond, and foreign indexes. My IRA has small cap, international small cap, REIT, TIPS and emerging market indexes.

The stuff I'm drawing from today and for the next 18 or so years is fairly stable income producing and more or less tax friendly; the stuff I'll be drawing from later is somewhat less so.

My allocation (as of today) is about 55% stock. In my taxable account its about 45%. About 90% in my IRA.
 
Chris,

Thanks for the reply. Just so I get started off right here, I have been using my expected rate of return (example 10%) for predicting my 401k balance in the future. I know that that figure has to be adjusted of inflation. Are most people using a "real rate of return" figure (example 6%) for their predictions? I find this confusing because any calculations I do I know are in todays dollars. Keeping everything in todays dollars seems easier to me than adjusting now for inflation. My pension estimates from my employer are in todays dollars. My SSA estimates from the SSA are in todays dollars.

Mark

Inflation affects your returns TODAY. If this years inflation rate is 2.5% and your returns are 10%, your real rate of return is 7.5%. As for far flung future estimates, working exclusively in todays dollars is a good idea, but you still need to apply inflation adjustments to your current annual returns.

I'm presuming 8-9% for my IRA allocation (pre inflation) and 6-8% for my taxable allocation (pre inflation).

That (hopefully) means my taxable piece gives me 4% SWR (which I can live well on), plus enough to accomodate inflation and keep me from eating my principal, while my IRA portion can bounce all to hell and back but (again hopefully) becomes a substantial piece of principal for me to start working with when I'm of curmudgeonly age.
 
BMJ - Occurs to me I may not have completely answered your question with regards to risk and withdrawal.

As an aside, which probably has huge bearing, I dont consider some stock investments like REITS and emerging markets as a pure "stock" class, even though they are stocks. I consider REITS as a real estate asset class, and emerging markets as a speculative one.

I think the fair answer to your question is that during long time periods, the volatility (aka risk) factors of a 100% stock (or even 100% high risk stock) portfolio are mitigated. However if your withdrawal hits at the end of a period of high downside volatility, that might hurt. Coupled with Bernsteins allegation that stocks and bonds may have similar returns going forward...

But then again, you should consider my thinking with a grain of salt as I ate a tofu hot dog for breakfast...although I did put mustard, onions and sauerkraut on it. Heyyy...does that make me a cybersauer? ;)
 
TH, sounds good enough to me. Up until recently my thought was to stay nearly 100% stock to maximize returns and make it to ER as soon as possible, then move to a more mellow, less volatile portfolio to make it through retirement. I was pleased that I took the dramatic 40-50% drop in value after 2000 without panic. But two main points these days are making me want to have a bond mix now.

One point is market timing. How will I know when the right time to move my funds from 100% stocks to a balanced allocation? If my retirment year is like 2001 was I would've felt good up until a few months before retirement then panicked. If I adjust my mix now there's no timing issue; I'll keep largely the same allocation from now through retirement through death.

The other point is that I may need to make an unanticipated withdrawal, and that would be more likely to happen during a downturn in stocks. I resisted the temptation to use my pretax funds to pay off my debt, but late last year I had the threat of a layoff and probably would have wanted/needed to withrdaw some funds after that. If I balance my allocation now my portfolio will always be ready for an emergency withdrawal.

Additionally, my outlook on finances is evolving. My path to eliminating debt was determination and (somewhat) strict budgeting. Once the debt is gone, my path to ER doesn't need to be as strict; after all the point of wanting to RE is to have more freedom and enjoy life more, but I can get some of that between now and ER; so as an example perhaps I can quit a job if it becomes too annoying, take a few months off and then go back to work. It will put off ER, but then it's like taking a bit of ER now instead of later. The point of all this is that a balanced allocation during accumulation will help this situation, too.

EDIT: I cross-posted with your post immediately preceeding this one. Wow, and Bob_Smith just posted while I'm editing; I can't keep up with you guys. Anyway, you mention the market timing issue and make a good point about stock/bond returns. Whether or not one agrees about future returns, there is certainly no guarantee that either stocks or bonds will outperform the other, so that seems to support a balanced portfolio, too. And I think you do your best stuff after wine and eating.
 
For now, I agree with you, but to check us both I'll pick at it a bit: Is your asset allocation advice the same for someone who's withdrawing and someone who's 15+ years from withdrawals? You say don't increase risk to get an extra half percent, but if we're not taking withdrawals then where's the risk?
Hi BMJ. I know this was directed to TH, but I'll throw in my two cents.

Zbwmy said he might retire in 8 years, and I think what he may find is that his tolerance for work at age 47 will be much lower than it is now at age 39. If he's sitting on a phenomenal benefit package plus $750,000 or so at age 47, he may very well want to pull the trigger then.

Also, one advantage to allocating between stocks and bonds is re-balancing. It would force him to buy stocks when they are down, and lighten up when they are high. If he's 100% in stocks, he can't do that.
 
Bob_Smith, go right ahead! Great points about rebalancing and the decreasing tolerance for work.

8 months ago I was over 95% stocks. Today I'm about 20% bonds and getting closer and closer to deciding to adjust to 35-40% bonds from this year forward.
 
Hello Mark,

Hmm, I think we have a disconnect so let's make sure. I'm pretty sure I have these terms right - someone please correct me if I'm wrong. The "actual" rate is what the market actually returned. The historical actual rate of return for the market is generally accepted to be about 10-11%. "Real" means "actual" rate of return minus the inflation correction. The historical real rate of return for the market is generally accepted to be about 7-8%. It depends on what historical periods you use for the calculations of both actual returns and inflation rates... Anyway. The real rate of return will give current year dollars for ball park projection calculations. The actual rate of return will give future year dollars for ball park projection calculations because it is not corrected for inflation. Most people like to think in terms of current year dollars and that means handicapping your actual expected rate of return by your expected inflation rate meaning the real rate of return. Yes, you are right the SSA and the pension plans report to you in current year dollars. So unless you expect to see 10% as a real return rate (more like 13-14% before inflation), you will need to adjust for inflation to see the results in today's (current year) dollars.

Maybe there wasn't a disconnect, but I feel better now. Yes, a lot of folks use the 6% real figure. Why? I think that folks do this for two reasons. The first is most folks don't ride 100% in the stock market. While diversification gives you a less volatile portfolio, it also provides you with a smaller return than 100% stocks (although some would argue this statement). The second reason is that if you can hit your mark with the lower rate of return, great. You might be pleasantly surprised by a higher return in the long run. Pleasant surprises are much more fun to deal with than disappointing surprises. Along this same thought line, some folks just don't think the market is going to perform quite as well in the near future. Belt and suspenders? However you want to think of it.

I can't "retire" until age 57, so I'll quit and then file for retirement at 60. It would be nice for me to be able to file the retirement paperwork at age 47...

Hope that helped.

Chris
 
While diversification gives you a less volatile portfolio, it also provides you with a smaller return than 100% stocks (although some would argue this statement).
I wont argue, but I'll disagree... ;)

Several of the "asset allocation" guys point out that high diversification portfolios can enhance returns while concurrently reducing volatility.

But it clearly depends on what you're using for diversification classes, how much, and what periods you measure.

The three down years we just had were pretty good for bonds, so a 50/50 or 60/40 stock/bond mix would have done way better during that period than a pure stock portfolio. While reducing overall volatility.

REITS, emerging markets and small caps have done far better than the s&p500 over the last couple of years. Incorporating some of those would have improved your returns, again while reducing volatility.

Riskier and less risky classes besides US stocks CAN improve your returns while reducing portfolio volatility, providing you balance correctly, rebalance periodically (every 1-3 years), and choose classes that are not highly correlated with one another.

Here are some asset classes and correlation influences I incorporate into my asset allocation spreadsheet; this information comes from Gillette Edmunds book. Not as thorough as Bernsteins, but a one sitting read without as much brain burn:

- Emerging Markets, US Stocks and foreign on different "tracks".
- Small US and Large US stocks are on the same one.
- US and Foreign stocks on different ones.
- Emerging market and foreign are somewhat correlated.
- Real estate and oil/gas on similar ones.
- Bonds and stocks in the same country often track similar
- High inflation hurts stocks and bonds in the short term, then can improve stocks by higher product selling prices and bonds by accompanying higher interest rates.
- Declining inflation helps stocks and bonds in the short to medium term.
- Rising currency value helps both stocks and bonds in that country.
- Declining currency hurts both stocks and bonds in that country.
- Money markets, tbills and cash track similar to bonds.

From this, a smidgeon of foreign stocks (which can be further sub-split to small and large cap), some REIT's and/or oil and gas pumpers, a helping of domestic bonds, and perhaps a little foreign bonds and/or emerging market stocks. Then a precious metals cherry on top?

Its also worth it to note that with our current low inflation and rates, its likely both may rise and fall over our retirement period, inflicting benefit and damage on the US markets; these may have inverse relationships on foreign issues as those become more expensive or cheaper relative to US investment instruments.

Plus our low US dollar value right now will (again hopefully) reverse itself, sending a few ripples.

With these in mind, owning any long term bonds or a very heavy intermediate term bond (10+ years) may be a bad idea. Further, Bernstein showed that the risk/return profile of 10+ year bonds isnt very appealing most of the time.

Several "portfolio's for every season" have been posted here, but:

10% to foreign issues
3-5% emerging markets
5-15% reits
2-3% precious metals (perhaps)
3-5% high quality foreign bonds (perhaps)
10-20% small cap value
remainder of portfolio split 60/40 between s&p 500 or total stock market and short term corporate and/or TIPS

You may wish to use large cap value instead of s&p500 or TSM for your major US stock holding. Higher returns and dividends over long time periods.

Rebalance between winners and losers every couple of years. Rinse and repeat. Some will argue that rebalancing all the time or monthly/quarterly gets you something. Others note that some assets have performed great for many years straight and awful for many years, so frequently rebalancing to/from those would hurt. I think every year or two might do the trick.
 
I am a wavering "lumper" having most of my IRA
in Vanguard's Target Retirement 2025. However,
I am becoming increasingly interested in being a
"splitter" for the IRA in my name and leave my
wife's IRA in the 2025 fund and put our after tax
fund in 2025 as well. In the "splitter" IRA I am considering using the "coffee house" formula" in all Vanguard funds:

10% in Large Cap Index
10% in Value Index
10% in Small Cap Index
10% in Small Cap Value Index
10% in REIT Index
10% in Total International Index
20% in Short Term Corporate
20% in TIPs fund.

I have already started "value averaging" into
Small Cap Value Index, the REIT Index and TIPS
at the rate of $5K per quarter. If the recent
down draft in REIT and TIPS continues, I will
get more aggressive. I will probably start the other
funds during the year.

This will give us an overall 60/40 split in the total
portfolio.

Currently our after tax account is 100% in TSM.
I know that the 2025 fund is less tax efficient,
but it is worth it to me to have the 60/40 mix
run on autopilot. However my male harmones,
still kicking at age 70, want to do the "splitter"
thingy for part of our portfolio.

Do you see any problems? Re-balancing the "splitter"
every year should not be a problem even for my
dear wife Lyn (whose eyes glaze over on this topic)
if I should have to take up residence in the old
folks home with drool cup in hand.

Cheers,

Charlie (aka Chuck-Lyn)
 
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