International Real Estate

[GTM]

I'm a newbie to the forum. Thanks to all for your informative posts and replies.

Given the uncertainty with the stock markets and US real estate values has anyone looked to properties outside the United States for investment and/or a retirement home.

I have read many good things about Panama and Argentina and wondered if anybody has purchased or plans to purchase in other country.

Interested in the pros and cons and concerns those may have.

GTM

 

[wabmester]

I had a similar idea a while back. I was looking for a REIT that invested in Japanese real estate, since I figured that that market had probably hit bottom.

I didn't find anything available to US investors, but REITs were being launched on the Japanese exchange. I was too lazy to figure out how to trade on that exchange from here.

 

[ESRBob]

GTM,
My instinct is that buying property /moving abroad is a dandy idea, and that meaningful numbers of Americans will choose this in the coming decades as a way to walk away from the four horsemen of Tort Tax, Security Tax, Public Sector Pensions tax and Medical Benefits Tax that will saddle Americans and American business for the forseeable future.

Moving to 'younger' countries with less developed social welfare systems, less plaintiff-centric legal systems and less appeal to terrorists will put you way ahead.

Then of course you need to focus on your quality of life, because you won't be in the good old US of A.  There is a lively set of sites extolling these overseas investments, mostly set up by hucksters it seems, but sifting through the hype and having my own travel experiences, it would appear that you have to pick your country carefully to ensure decent medical facilities, reasonable crime risk, reasonable weather, access to  US or Europe etc.

I think the cost advantages of some of these overseas destinations today will be sustained over the long haul, for the same reason that Toyota,with all of 56 retirees in the US, (maybe a bit higher by now - this was a figure I remember from earlier this year)  can make cars here a heckuvalot more profitably than GM, with rather more than 56 retirees in the US.  Apparently, medical benefits are now more of the cost of a GM car than steel.

One of our posters, Lance, lives quite comfortably (without air conditioning) in Thailand on $1,000 a month.  And Social Security 'delivers' -- they'll send your check 'over there'.  Take another look at your medical insurance bill or your property tax bill and tell me that a lot of Americans won't be heading to developing countries when they retire.  And if they do, real estate values there, boosted also by their own growing economies, should do fine.  I don't make many predictions, but I am pretty comfortable on this one.

ESRBob

 

[slipp1229]

I too have been researching overseas retirement.  You are correct, many of the locations mentioned are high potential yet still considered third world, including Argentina, Panama and Ecuador.  Some of the "Hucksters" hawking information on escaping the U.S. include an organization called "International Living".  Do a Google search, the first five links will be for them.  Although IL can be a little annoying with their spam, you can learn a lot by getting on their email list.  Also, there are Investment firms located offshore that can guide you to offshore retirement locals.  One that I have not used but recommend is Ascot & Associates in the bahamas. Again, enter them in Google... a link should come up.   He puts out a monthly email newsletter (for free) that is quite informative and entertaining since he is VERY anti US tax structure.  Hope this helps.

Slipp

 

[Lancelot]

I qm sure that some folks make serious money investing in real property in developing countries.

In Thailand a foreigner can purchase a "condo" (apartment) but...

Say old Lance buys a condo in a desirable area of Bangkok for 2 million baht (US 50k.) Then, some poor haunted soul -who also happens to reside in my building- decides to end it all by jumping off their balcony.

Lance's condo is now worth 1 million baht. Maybe.

Yep, money can be made abroad, but personally speaking, I would never buy antything in Thailand that I could not accept suffering a 100% loss.

Just one guys take.

Lance

 

[ESRBob]

Lance,
Sounds awful. Is this what really happened to you? If so, how long until people 'forget' the tragedy and superstition fades on this one. Can you hire a local priest to 'clean things up'?

ESRBob

 

[Lancelot]

Hey ER,

No never happened to me because I've never bought into the real estate market here. You hit the nail on the head with respect to superstitions... Most Thai's believe in ghosts and thats why they avoid any property where a suicide has taken place-they fear that the deceased's ghost is unhappy and will cause the new owner tons of grief. You'd be suprised how many ghost movies that hit the Thai cinemas.

Yeah, the building owner will bring in some priests to try and "cleanse" the place, but the property's value may never recover. By the way, they even "bless" new cars here. You can always see the ritual marks on the inside front roof, near the rear view mirror.

Lance

Full disclosure-I did buy a bedspread, pillows and reading lamp. If a ghost moves into my (rented) place, he can have it all... :

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

So basically, if you really like a particular place but the price is too high, you just have to bring someone up to the roof, exclaim "Look!" and point down over the edge, and give 'em a push?

 

[SDY888]

Hi all,

Been away from the forum for a couple of months due to work commitments and health issues. Trying to catch up with all I've missed.

You have touched on a problem here that is close to my heart as I own three properties in Asia (China and Hong Kong).

Superstitions and their consequences are a serious factor when talking real estate in predominantly Buddhist or Taoist regions. Here in Hong Kong a Court case is currently running where the purchaser of a property is trying to withdraw without the loss of his deposit payments as it has come to light that the vendor's young son died in the house. He is claiming that this fact is a material advserse change to the conditions/knowledge under which he entered into the purchase and as such is entitled to withdraw without penalty. Yet to be decided but customary tradition are likely on his side. One more issue to consider in the great "Rent vs Buy" debate.

Simon888

 

[ctbktb]

GTM,

A site that has served us well while researching Real Estate in Panama is:

http://www.escapeartist.com

Panama is a U.S dollar denominated country which had an appeal to us.

As you explore your options, be sure to understand the differences and risks associated with "Titled" v. "Rights of Possession" property.

Good luck

 

[Skylark]

I am very interested in living outside of the USA but will be working to FIRE in the US for a few years yet.

I was born in Germany and lived in Europe for a good part of my life, so I am used to Euro mentalities. Real estate markets are very complex in other countries. Some don't have title insurance, some have weird fees and taxes on real estate, and maintenance of the typical euro building is extremely expensive. I would not want euro real estate unless it is given to me. (there is a "castle" in old Germany that might fall my way in inheritance). Personally I will not live in Euroland again, politics is totally messed up and there are large Muslim populations that are now starting to act like enemies.

The USA is a lot of fun and an exciting place, but it is aging and the old folks don't rock and roll (anymore). Instead of sex drugs and rock and roll, now it is Depends, Preparation H and the purple pill. It is also a bummer to be paying taxes to be the World Sheriff. So I am looking for other locations, at least to visit.

I am very interested in Chile, supposed to be a lot like California, lots of beaches, wine, and maybe politics has catharsis-ized itself to reasonableness. I don't know much about the mentality of the people but hope it is kind of like backwoods Spain or Portugal(?). I can deal with that. Especially the rain forest areas south of Santiago look interesting, like Valdivia. I hope to visit as a tourist, maybe next winter. I kind of like the idea of going across the equator for "winter".

New Zealand and Australia are also very interesting.

 

[Brat]

Husband and I spent four months wandering in NZ and AU in a camper-fan and loved every minute of it. We considered retirement there. What held us back is the fact that the rest of the family is half a world away. If we had made the move when the kids were little and they settled in that part of the globe that is where we would be.

I particularly liked AU around the Whitsunday's, and Sidney is hard to beat.

The South Island NZ is like the northwest in many respects, they have a strong relationship with the Oregon State University School of Forestry. The North Island is warmer and more continental.

Go spend 6 months in each and if you want to settle permanently explore their immigration requirements. We can't just move there any more than they can do so here.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

With the Current State of the US Dollar. It is very difficult to consider living permanently outside the US. We are having problems even in Canada. The Dollar has gone down over 30%. To loose 30% of ones net worth in my books is a pretty big deal. That goes for Australia also. For us a ERs with no SS or pensions that is. If you intend to work that is different. It is also VERY difficult to get into Australia permanently.

SWR

 

[GTM]

We still have very good dollar power in the Latin American countries. Panama and Costa Rica have alot to offer including very good medical care.
I understand Argentinia is a great place to live as well.

From what I have read and heard the best all around value is Panama. Panama City is modern and the highland areas offer excellent weather. US dollars are used there.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

We still have very good dollar power in the Latin American countries. Panama and Costa Rica have alot to offer including very good medical care.
I understand Argentinia is a great place to live as well.

From what I have read and heard the best all around value is Panama. Panama City is modern and the highland areas offer excellent weather. US dollars are used there.

Any idea what good furnished accommodation goes for in Panama?

SWR

 

[nfs]

meaningful numbers of Americans will choose this in the coming decades as a way to walk away from the four horsemen of Tort Tax, Security Tax, Public Sector Pensions tax and Medical Benefits Tax that will saddle Americans and American business for the forseeable future.

Out of curiosity, how exactly do they expect to walk away from those taxes? They're still citizens and, even if they renounce, they are subject to expatriation taxes. Uncle Sam has his hooks in and they have barbs.

 

[Hyperborea]

Out of curiosity, how exactly do they expect to walk away from those taxes?  They're still citizens and, even if they renounce, they are subject to expatriation taxes.  Uncle Sam has his hooks in and they have barbs.

Yup, the US is one of the few countries in the world to demand taxes from their citizens and legal permanent residents (green card holders) no matter where they live. This is an excellent reason for the green card holder to make as much as they can, save it, and get out before the expat tax laws grab them too.