Alternative, Reduced Expense "Investments"

[Craig]

OK, how about some discussion about those consumer investments or decisions you've made that pay dividends by reducing your expenses ... helping you further LBYM?

This could be a hybrid car (debatable on savings ...), photovoltaic cells on your roof, solar hot water heaters, a magic 200 mpg carburetor, etc.? What have you discovered was a great investment / decision because it reduced your cost of living?

Years ago, we installed a solar hot water heater in Phoenix, and that worked out great. 3" styrofoam insulation under stucco turned our home into a big cooler in AZ as well ... worth the extra $2.5K at the time ... we had the lowest electricity bill around. We use Consumer Reports regularly, and are convinced we've been able to make wiser purchase decisions in a number of cases.

Not a product purchase, but moving to TN turned out to be a money saver ... much lower cost of living here, and lower taxes. Paid off all three cars (for three adults), and that worked out well.

Looking into solar cells for the house, but so far, hard to pin down true cost / payback. Anyone else had luck with photovoltaics?

 

[elroy]

A new front load washing machine. A thermal cover for my water heater.

 

[BigMoneyJim]

I took an opportunity buy of a car from a relative at a reasonable price and owner financed. I sold my truck (late model extended cab 350 V8). It halved my monthly payment, lowered my insurance, lowered my gas usage and was cheaper overall and paid off sooner. It really helped me snowball the debt reduction.

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but eliminating the consumer debt has powerful returns. I was paying probably a couple of hundred or so in interest...paying for stuff I had bought long ago. After getting rid of the debt I feel like I'm rolling in money sometimes.

After having new car fever for a few months I instead put $2k into replacing my head gasket & intake manifold gasket, getting the heads machined and paying a ridiculous fee to get the turn signal switch replaced. Paid cash. ($2k includes rental car.) With a little luck I'll keep driving this paid off car another couple of years quite cheaply.

 

[scrinch]

I've had photovoltaics since last summer. With the California Utility Comission rebate ($3.20/installed watt) and the California income tax credit, the installed cost was about $4.25/watt installed nameplate (STC). The way I calculate the economics, with a time-of-use meter the ROI will be about 3% over the rate of power price inflation. A fairly conservative investment, but a decent hedge against increases in energy prices. So far the performance of the system has been at or above expectations (when it hasn't been raining).

I've bought all the components for a solar water system, so now I just need to find the time to put it together and install it.

 

[Surfdaddy]

Things that have made the biggest financial savings differences in my life:

1. Go to a state college. And go to college. I had no loans when I got out.
2. Buy first car used for $670. Drive it 170K miles (12 years) and sell it for $700.
3. Buy second car (new). Drive it 140K miles.
4. One of our current cars (minivan) has 205K miles on it, going strong, original owners. We're buying a replacement car in the fall!
Note: think of all the money we've saved in car costs and interest over 22 years.

5. Always pay off credit cards.
6. Pay mortgage more aggressively than the loan expects.

I do other smaller things, but on a pure dollar basis these are the biggies.

 

[Cb]

I think the greatest savings in the way we've budgeted compared to the average middle class American has been in automotive costs...we mostly buy lower-end used vehicles with 25K-40K miles on them, then run them into the ground, doing much of the maintenance myself. We've never had a car payment or full coverage insurance.

We've also been "late adopters" on electronica such as microwaves, VHS, then DVD players & 5.1 sound, high speed internet, cell phones and the like. We wind up with this stuff eventually, but the costs are usually down substantially from the first wave. Except these damned monthly fees for HS internet & cell service...

Cb

 

[kramer]

OK, the two savings ideas that have worked for me:

* Investing in Index funds instead of managed funds -- this alone probably saves me over 5 figures per year due to lower investment costs, deferred taxes, and proper diversification

* Rent a 1 bedroom apartment (I am single) -- in Silicon Valley the consumption item is real estate, and people mortgage their futures for it -- it is eery -- colleagues spend 10 to 100s of thousands on all kinds of house upgrades -- and disrupt their life, etc. -- one colleague has an interest only loan of over 1M dollars


I live modestly, but everything else is pretty much in the noise compared to those two things.

I try to take a 3 week international trip each year nowadays which tend to be low budget, but that is not really "saving".

Kramer

 

[Craig]

The "slightly-used car, and drive them into the ground" is a huge deal.  I was in the car business for 13 years, and for some of that time we leased luxury cars (from our Lexus / Land Rover / BMW stores).  Even at my cost, those were dumb moves.  Older car folks, away from the business, will always advise against trading new cars every few years ... that strategy is indeed a money pit.  Only exception ... new cars heavily subsidized, sometimes with lease terms.  For those retired, who drive less ... another tactic is to buy classic cars, and don't put too many miles on them.  Very little depreciation, and sometimes you'll hear a story of appreciation. And, you've got a neat ride!

We've done the late adopter routine as well.  Still higher on the curve than I'd like, but we finally bought a wide-screen, flat panel TV ... much smaller than our friends, much cheaper, but a big step up from the 12-year-old one that died.

For those installing photovolaics, how did you find a good vendor?

 

[Poundkey]

I totally agree with CB and Charles on the car thing. I've always felt that financing (paying interest) on something that was depreciating in value was a no win situation.
Try to find a quality used car with low miles, pay cash if you can, and maintain it properly. I belong to an auto maintainence discussion board and there are members who routinely get 300K miles from Toyota/Nissan/Honda engines. These guys normally run a synthetic oil with a good filter. By good filter I mean anything but Fram.

........#.......

 

[grumpy]

We threw out our massive 80 gallon electric hot water heater that came with the house and installed an instant tankless hot water heater. It not only takes up a fraction of the space in our laundry room but it has cut monthly electric bills by about $25/month (since water is heated only when needed instead of being kept hot 24/7). It allows us to take a hot shower for as long as desired with no fear of running out of hot water. We've had it for a little over a year and it works very well.

Grumpy

 

[TromboneAl]

Ditto on the tankless water heater.

Wood stove: my heating costs for next winter will be zero (firewood from downed trees).

Ditto for moving to the country.

 

[sailor]

Bicycle to work instead of driving a car.

 

[Poundkey]

Just curious........Has anyone changed their incandescent bulbs for fluorescent bulbs? If so, what did you look for in a fluorescent bulb? I see several different types on the shelf. Any feedback on savings using the fluorescent?
Thanks

.........#........

 

[brewer12345]

Just curious........Has anyone changed their incandescent bulbs for fluorescent bulbs?   If so, what did you look for in a fluorescent bulb?  I see several different types on the shelf.  Any feedback on savings using the fluorescent?
Thanks

.........#........

I've used compact fluorescents for years, since the NYC area always has had high electric rates. I just buy the cheapest ones at Lowe's and they work fine. Since they use about 1/10th the electricity and last for years, you get a return pretty quickly. Savings is # hours light is on per day X wattage rating of incandescent X .001 X .9 X cost per KWH X 365. So if you use a single 75W lamp bulb 6 hours a day and pay $.12 a KWH, you save 6 X 75 X .001 X .9 X .12 X 365 = $17.74 in the first year. Those $3 bulbs look pretty good, don't they?

 

[Cb]

Just curious........Has anyone changed their incandescent bulbs for fluorescent bulbs?   If so, what did you look for in a fluorescent bulb?  I see several different types on the shelf.  Any feedback on savings using the fluorescent?
Thanks

.........#........

I Googled this a while ago...IIRC the cheapest ones at Home Depot, etc are prone to the phenomenom of a subtle "pulsing" of the intensity of light when using 2 or more in a room. That'd probably drive me krAZiE (admittedly, only a short drive), so I've used that as an excuse to do nothing, a favorite pastime of mine.

Cb

 

[brewer12345]

I Googled this a while ago...IIRC the cheapest ones at Home Depot, etc are prone to the phenomenom of a subtle "pulsing" of the intensity of light when using 2 or more in a room. That'd probably drive me krAZiE (admittedly, only a short drive), so I've used that as an excuse to do nothing, a favorite pastime of mine.

Cb

If you don't like the ones at Home Despot, check out the extensive selection at www.bulbs.com

 

[REWahoo]

If you don't like the ones at Home Despot, check out the extensive selection at www.bulbs.com

Sams has a pretty good selection also. I replaced most of our incandescents with the "curlycue" variety a few months ago and have been happy with the results in reduced elec. bills. Haven't noticed any pulsing issues, but they do take 30 seconds or so after you turn them on to get up to full brightness.

 

[maddythebeagle]

Cloths line....who needs dryer sheets ..Of course, being in the country makes it nicer since I know folks in town in some places cant have them.

 

[Canadian FIRE]

Just curious........Has anyone changed their incandescent bulbs for fluorescent bulbs? If so, what did you look for in a fluorescent bulb? I see several different types on the shelf. Any feedback on savings using the fluorescent?
.........#........

I bought my first CF bulb back over 5 years ago now. Since back then they cost a bit more I just replaced each bulb as I burned out the old ones. I still have yet to replace a single CF bulb. Cost savings are insane when you apply it to the entire house. I turn off lights and run all CF bulbs and my power bill is about half of my neighbours. ($35/month) I got all my CF bulbs at IKEA. They have great sales on them every few months, so keep an eye out.

Cdn FIRE

 

[scrinch]

Photovoltaic vendor: local phone book, competitive bids, call references. Here in northern California there are a lot of solar vendors, so the yellow pages worked. I went with Real Goods, and have been quite happy with their service. I'll give you their phone number if you like.

I bought a case of CF bulbs on eBay for less than $1 each. In researching them it seems that if they are Energy Star compliant then they have been tested well enough that they should last for at least a few years. The only ones that aren't Energy Star compliant these days are some of the very cheapest Chinese ones you find at the $1 discount stores. There are spirals and mini-spirals. The mini-spirals fit in pretty much all fixtures while the spirals are too big for some.

 

[nun]

Downsizing home to one of these,

http://www.inhabitat.com/prefabhousing.php

with solar power, a wind turbine, and a well.

 

[sailor]

I've used compact fluorescents for years (...)
Since they use about 1/10th the electricity ...

It's my engineering duty to point an exaggeration in your claim (marketing spin maybe?
The equivalent lumen output compact fluorescent use about 1/4th electricity of typical incandescent bulb and if not carefully designed could be even 1/3rd (if the power factor is lousy).
Nevertheless for highly used fixtures the economics of running it are pretty good.

sailor,
whose half of the lights in the house are ***

 

[Nords]

Looking into solar cells for the house, but so far, hard to pin down true cost / payback.  Anyone else had luck with photovoltaics?

You've read these threads, right?
http://early-retirement.org/forums/index.php?topic=975.msg13342#msg13342
http://early-retirement.org/forums/index.php?topic=3560.msg60544#msg60544
http://early-retirement.org/forums/index.php?topic=4156.msg70916#msg70916

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a191/Nords_Nords/Solar photovoltaic array/

Last January we expanded our 1100-watt "starter system" to 3000 watts.  Now that the winter rains have ended, I think we're finally going to have our first 350-KWHr month.

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a191/Nords_Nords/Solar photovoltaic array expansion/

I have a somewhat overly-complicated spreadsheet comparing the payback to just investing the costs in a mutual fund paying 6% after-tax.  I manually enter the tax credits as well.  The rosiest projected payback is about eight years.  For someone paying retail prices for new equipment (especially at today's higher $$/watt panels) it's probably closer to 15-20 years.  However that payback still exceeds the dividend rate of most equities, and my spreadsheet doesn't do a good job of assessing the effects of inflation.

I've bought all the components for a solar water system, so now I just need to find the time to put it together and install it.

There are three things I wish I'd done differently in our solar water system:
1.  When the pump is off, the reverse natural circulation flowrate is astounding.  The return leg from the panels to the tank (the hot water) needs a reverse-flow preventer like a check valve (which I'm not convinced yet will seat tightly) or a temperature-sensitive float ball check valve ($$).  The alternative is having your pump cycle all night for 30 seconds every 20 minutes to pump down the backflowing hot leg.  Admittedly that's not a mechanical/electrical issue but I'm getting complaints from the bedroom adjacent to the pump flow noise.
2.  A DC pump with its own foot-square PV panel.  I've been told that DC pumps have brush issues that make them much less reliable than AC pumps.  However our AC pump won't be much help if the hurricane trashes the power grid.  I bet the DC pump brush issues aren't as bad as originally presented, and I never took the time to check into them more closely.
3.  We overbuilt our system with two 4'x8' panels supplying an 80-gallon tank.  We used plenty of isolation valves to be able to take either panel off-service for days when the tank would exceed 160 degrees.  Now that the summer sun is shining I'll have to shut down one of the panels, and I wish I'd added a couple extra valves on the panels to make it easier to drain them.

BTW I strongly recommend using a thermal-limiting (mixing) valve on the hot-water supply to the house.  Ours is set at 140 degrees but they can be dialed in to as low as 120 degrees.  

It takes a long time to adjust a lifetime of water-user's habits.  I still cringe when I turn on the kitchen sink hot-water faucet just to rinse out a pot, but hot water does the job more quickly than cold so free hot water costs less.  I even fill the coffeemaker with hot water.  I guess a truly hedonistic gearhead would connect his car-washing hose to the hot-water supply.  Spouse kids me that we should have the toilets flush hot water.  At least I think she's kidding!

For those installing photovolaics, how did you find a good vendor?

Some utility companies will only work with authorized contractors for net-metering systems.  See if they have a list.

If your utility doesn't have a list (or if you're going totally off the grid) then look for a local solar-industry advocacy group that lobbies the county/state govts.  The contractor we used had a great rep with the group.  

An installer can only control his costs by using cheaper materials or by working more efficiently, so ask the contractor what specialized tools & installation training they use to make the labor go faster.  (Component availability is very tight and prices have gone through the roof.)  A specialty contractor might be even better.  Although the company we used is a fully-capable electrical contracting firm, they only do photovoltaics-- they don't even do solar water.

Compare your contractor choices to this guy's website:
http://www.islandenergy.net/monitoring.htm

Just curious........Has anyone changed their incandescent bulbs for fluorescent bulbs?   If so, what did you look for in a fluorescent bulb?  I see several different types on the shelf.  Any feedback on savings using the fluorescent?

We've been using *** for about 10 years and I've only had to replace one.  Now we have a drawer full of useless leftover incandescent bulbs.  Have you ever seen the commercial where two 10-year-olds are joking around and one kid asks the other "How many grownups does it take to change a lightbulb?"  The punchline is "Why would anyone have to change a lightbulb?!?"

We use *** wherever the light is likely to be on for more than an hour a day--livingroom, kitchen, diningroom, familyroom, bedroom nightstands, all hallways.  We haven't replaced the globes over our bathroom sinks since those bulbs are still pretty expensive.  We look for the smallest bulb that'll fit the fixture.  Sometimes we raise the equivalent lumen output but usually it's the same.

*** really cut down the heat too.  Our house is much cooler without all the incandescent lights heating up the fixtures, especially in the bathroom ceilings.

We look for cheap because we've been unable to distinguish any difference in quality.  This is especially true for hallway lights or any lightswitch operated by a teenager.

 

[brewer12345]

It's my engineering duty to point an exaggeration in your claim (marketing spin maybe?
The equivalent lumen output compact fluorescent use about 1/4th electricity of typical incandescent bulb and if not carefully designed could be even 1/3rd (if the power factor is lousy).
Nevertheless for highly used fixtures the economics of running it are pretty good.

sailor,
whose half of the lights in the house are ***

Fair enough. I usually just slap a 7W bulb in for a 75W incandescent and don't worry too much about equivalent lumens and such (except for the planted aquarium). If you assume that *** use 70% of the electricity of the incandescent they replace, first year savings in my example are $13.80. Still makes that $3 CF look good.

 

[eridanus]

I installed solar screens on the south and west windows and the effect was dramatic. Previously it was unbearable in the summer near those windows.

I got in on a free solar panel test from the city. They installed 300 watts and wired it to the grid. I'd like to get more but I'll wait until I replace the roof.

To get the energy federal tax credit, I'm going to add more insulation this year.