Prop 19 Poll

[harley]

So, based on the thread about this I thought a poll would be interesting. Based on Prop 19 in CA as it is written rght now if you could vote on it would you vote yes or no? Since it requires 50% +1 I'll include a NOTA option. Have at it.

 

[kyounge1956]

So, based on the thread about this I thought a poll would be interesting. Based on Prop 19 in CA as it is written rght now if you could vote on it would you vote yes or no? Since it requires 50% +1 I'll include a NOTA option. Have at it.

How about a link to the text of Prop 19? Not that I'm gonna read it. There's so much stuff on the ballot up here in WA it took two voter's pamphlets to fit it all in, and I've got to figure all of that out before I think about how I'd vote in other states' elections.

But some other folks might want to see it before voting in the poll. It's the marijuana one, right?

 

[harley]

Sorry, I'm so familiar with it I assumed others were too. Especially with the comments on the other thread.

Here's the proposition - Proposition 19: The Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010 | yeson19.com

Here's a pro view - yeson19.com

Here's a con view - No On Proposition 19

 

[chinaco]

Hey it passed 6 to 3. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

 

[F-One]

The con position is

I thought when your high, you drive really slow, it just seems like your flying - so accidents would be less serious

 

[ziggy29]

How about a link to the text of Prop 19? Not that I'm gonna read it. There's so much stuff on the ballot up here in WA it took two voter's pamphlets to fit it all in, and I've got to figure all of that out before I think about how I'd vote in other states' elections.

Agreed. I'd support such a thing if it were done properly, but there are details that might torpedo my support (means of taxation, revenue production and regulation of sale and production, for example, or lack of local control options). Not sure what this specific measure does about those things other than that I did see that sales to people under 21 would still be illegal.

 

[W2R]

I don't know how I'd vote on Prop 19 if I lived in California, because I haven't lived in California for over a quarter century. I think it is up to Californians.

Here in New Orleans, where the police don't even have the manpower to keep up with murders and other violent crimes, it really would make very little difference whether or not they could (theoretically) arrest people for pot. I guess it may help them as a temporary pretext to get a violent offender off the streets, while they are gathering other evidence. I can't imagine them ever having the time to bother with it otherwise. So, I'd probably vote to leave the laws in place.

 

[BTravlin]

I only wish I had the opportunity to vote on such a proposition. And, no, I'm not moving to California. Yes vote here.

 

[audreyh1]

I would love to break Mexico's stranglehold on the weed business! Anything that would quit funding the Mexican Cartels terrorizing everyone just south of the border. Things are so out of control over there.

Audrey

 

[Koolau]

The concept of regulating and taxing (by Calif.) is probably a non-starter. The Feds will pounce on the first 8 guys who try to "do the right thing" and then all will go back underground again. I agree the Feds don't have the manpower to stop "illegal" growing/sales/use but they sure do have the manpower to stop "legal" growing/sales/use by anyone dumb enough to try to follow the Calif. law. For now, Calif. will save so much money on enforcement it will be BETTER than a tax. (Don't get greedy just yet, you guys in Calif.)

Eventually, if that works for Calif., the Feds may come around and THEN we can tax the stuff. Nobody does taxes better than the Feds!

I think the idea of decriminalization might be a better approach. No, it isn't "legal" (as in here is what you have to do to "transact" a pot sale) but it isn't illegal either (we will no longer break down doors of folks who have the glow of a grow light in their window). Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. If you have a joint on you when searched for (what, a traffic violation?) we won't arrest you any more than we will if you have a nail clipper in your pocket. It's not so much "legal" as it's not "illegal".

BTW IIRC, alcohol abuse and all it's kindred problems were WORSE during prohibition than afterwards. Don't have the source to back that up. Think I saw that on the series (MTV?) now on History CH - Kathleen Turner narrator. Also, IIRC, a main issue with prohibitions is that once a significant proportion of the population becomes "law breakers" as in the case of pot use, lawlessness becomes more tolerated in all areas. Mayor Giuliani "cleaned up" NYC NOT by going after organized crime but but enforcing graffiti, littering, panhandling laws, etc. Previously it was "tolerated" and the city became apathetic to the point of being near unlivable. In the Prop 19 case, you take away the illegality and folks can once again trust their police force to enforce "real" crime. Not the "crimes" that 1/3 of the population commit daily or weekly.

I'm pretty much rabidly anti intoxicant abuse (legal or otherwise) for myself/family but I'm too libertarian to suggest what's good for everyone else as long as my safety isn't seriously compromised. Right now, my safety is probably much more compromised by the issues associated with drug prohibitions (e.g., robbery, theft, etc. to pay for Meth, etc. or stay bullets for that matter) than someone using an illegal substance and crossing the center line.

Now climbing down from my soap box, and oh yes, YMMV.

 

[harley]

I think the idea of decriminalization might be a better approach. No, it isn't "legal" (as in here is what you have to do to "transact" a pot sale) but it isn't illegal either (we will no longer break down doors of folks who have the glow of a grow light in their window). Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. If you have a joint on you when searched for (what, a traffic violation?) we won't arrest you any more than we will if you have a nail clipper in your pocket. It's not so much "legal" as it's not "illegal".

Just read a really good article on this very issue, showing why decrim won't help certain aspects, especially the racial disparity issue. The demon weed is already decriminalized in CA (as of a couple of weeks ago). Better than nothing, but only a little.

New Study Highlights Dramatic Racial Disparities in California Pot Arrests - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

 

[MichaelB]

I would love to break Mexico's stranglehold on the weed business! Anything that would quit funding the Mexican Cartels terrorizing everyone just south of the border. Things are so out of control over there.

Audrey

Is this falling over to your side of the border?

 

[audreyh1]

Is this falling over to your side of the border?

No, not really - although there are plenty of drug smuggling busts and a few exciting chases - the type of thing that has been going on for a long time. Something newer though - are also lots of busts of attempts to smuggle huge weapon caches south. The US export to Mexico - guns. Import drugs, export guns - perfect!

On the north side of the border we have a lot of law/border enforcement on constant patrol - although IMO we could use more as it seems like things are just barely contained even though border patrol is much more visible than just a few years ago.

On the south side - they have almost nothing except the Mexican federal army. All the local law enforcement has been co-opted, politicians threatened, kidnapped or murdered frequently. Constant kidnappings for ransom. Lots of terrorist acts to intimidate everyone. Civilians have no one trustworthy to turn to.

Recently, an inter-cartel war broke out big time in Reynosa, the city with tons of factories and the source of lots of economic well-being for McAllen, the sister city. People stay inside after dark. The factories shut down during the gun battles. It seems like no-one can get this stuff to stop over there. Wealthier Mexicans are moving north of the border as fast as they can and McAllen is seeing a temporary boom from this, but if Reynosa becomes a ghost town due to the violence, a big economic driver for McAllen disappears. In Just One Year, A Mexican City Turns Violent : NPR

You really wonder how long this can go on. Can the cartels just wipe each other out? Unfortunately the civilian casualties are high in such a scenario.

Audrey

 

[BTravlin]

It can go on for a long time when there is a large supply of poor people with relatively little opportunity to better themselves. Our appetite for illegal drugs provides an attractive pile of cash for those less fortunate wanting to get their piece of the pie.

 

[MichaelB]

No, not really - although there are plenty of drug smuggling busts and a few exciting chases - the type of thing that has been going on for a long time. Something newer though - are also lots of busts of attempts to smuggle huge weapon caches south. The US export to Mexico - guns. Import drugs, export guns - perfect!

On the north side of the border we have a lot of law/border enforcement on constant patrol - although IMO we could use more as it seems like things are just barely contained even though border patrol is much more visible than just a few years ago.

I generally favor State policy over Federal, but this is one area where we are in dire need of one policy. I think leaving border matters to the states is the worst kind of Federal political evasion of responsibility.

How is the cost of law enforcement affecting local taxes?

On the south side - they have almost nothing except the Mexican federal army. All the local law enforcement has been co-opted, politicians threatened, kidnapped or murdered frequently. Constant kidnappings for ransom. Lots of terrorist acts to intimidate everyone. Civilians have no one trustworthy to turn to.

Recently, an inter-cartel war broke out big time in Reynosa, the city with tons of factories and the source of lots of economic well-being for McAllen, the sister city. People stay inside after dark. The factories shut down during the gun battles. It seems like no-one can get this stuff to stop over there. Wealthier Mexicans are moving north of the border as fast as they can and McAllen is seeing a temporary boom from this, but if Reynosa becomes a ghost town due to the violence, a big economic driver for McAllen disappears. In Just One Year, A Mexican City Turns Violent : NPR

You really wonder how long this can go on. Can the cartels just wipe each other out? Unfortunately the civilian casualties are high in such a scenario.

Well, in other Latin American countries – Peru, Colombia, Chile, it went on for decades. Colombia it is much improved but still very shaky. And when both sides stand to gain (Import drugs, export guns - perfect!) – it can go on for a very long time.

One common element in the three countries named above - the beginning of the journey to reform was marked by elections that included (and were sometimes dominated by) a clear message from the middle class that such violence and oppression was no longer acceptable. Not yet the case in Mexico but clearly a growing sentiment.

Getting back to the thread, I don't think prop 19 is going to help.