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-   -   Spacing between sentences? (https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f32/spacing-between-sentences-58426.html)

RunningBum 10-19-2011 09:29 PM

Spacing between sentences?
 
I type in a post with the standard 2 spaces after a period, but then I look at it after submitting the post, and there's only a single period. It looks like it's happening to everyone. As a test, I'll put in 4 spaces after this sentence. Are there 4 spaces before this one?

It looks like the software is removing extra spaces, but 2 spaces between sentences is standard, not 1. I think 1 makes a longer paragraph a lot less readable. Can this be fixed?

I'm using Firefox 7.0.1 on Windows7.

ERD50 10-19-2011 09:52 PM

TESTING:

Sentence of stuff followed by period and two spaces. Then the next sentence, followed by period and 'enter'.


Sentence of stuff followed by period and one spaces. Then the next sentence, followed by period and 'enter', and I left 'spaces' plural for the same char count.

Sentence of stuff followed by period and six spaces. Then the next sentence, followed by period and 'enter'.


Will post, then look. Preview says yes, it takes them out for me too. I do seem to recall this now. Odd behavior.

-ERD50

Animorph 10-19-2011 09:57 PM

I had the same problem trying to format a table. Looked great in preview, then all my extra spaces removed in the final post.

ERD50 10-19-2011 10:12 PM

wwwww
lllll


wwwww
lllll


Animorph - the whole issue of posting data (which we do a lot of) would be soooooo much simpler if they undid this ridiculous yanking out of multiple spaces. Above, I chose courier new as the font in the second case, which is mono-spaced, so columns will line up, and you can easily pad them with spaces. The "Code" icon will keep the spaces, but that has other side effects. One work-around is to use chars other than spaces as the 'fillers', but not so good for sentence endings.

Why would the programmers decide to do this? It isn't a common practice at all. Very odd. But they also skip all sorts of things from searches, and don;t tell you that either.


-ERD50

GregLee 10-19-2011 10:53 PM

Usually the editing software thinks it gets to decide how all white space is treated. It decides what things are separated by being in different paragraphs, different sentences, or different words, then it formats those for display completely ignoring blank spaces that you typed in (except for what clues they may give about where words, sentences, or paragraphs are supposed to begin and end). Separating sentences with two blanks instead of just one ought to be doable, if we could agree that would be more readable, depending on the accessibility of the editing software that does the dirty work. (And I don't know how accessible it is, or to whom.)

But really, let me suggest, the problem is that there is only one standard width blank space to work with. That's a matter of computer convention that has just grown up with no good reason. Printers have many different spacings as they typeset which they can use to separate words or sentences, and generally they will use an amount between sentences that is intermediate between the inter-word spacing and double that. That's what we're used to seeing in print. But we can't do that on a computer screen, because we have just that single blank character to work with.

The computer fonts we use are proportional, with differing widths for different characters, so there is really no reason (except inertia) why we should not have several sorts of blanks, with varying widths, to correspond to the traditional typesetters' thin shims of lead used to produce white spaces of varying width. It would make text on a computer screen more beautiful, and it would also make it easier to do right justification.

winger 10-19-2011 11:00 PM

I had read about this a few days ago on the net. It seems we are old-timers.

REWahoo 10-20-2011 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animorph (Post 1122866)
I had the same problem trying to format a table. Looked great in preview, then all my extra spaces removed in the final post.

This may help: https://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ool-43750.html

Sarah in SC 10-20-2011 07:13 AM

I have had a keen interest in the one space or two debate that winger referenced, as I learned to type on a typewriter (old fart) and thus put 2 spaces between sentences. The youngsters, okay anyone under 40, learned the 1 space that is the convention now. I'll never get the hang of it, I suspect.

As for your other table issues, I'll defer to REW. I only post pictures. :)

REWahoo 10-20-2011 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah in SC (Post 1122897)
I have had a keen interest in the one space or two debate that winger referenced, as I learned to type on a typewriter (old fart) and thus put 2 spaces between sentences. The youngsters, okay anyone under 40, learned the 1 space that is the convention now. I'll never get the hang of it, I suspect.

There is another alternative, one practiced by at least one long-term forum member . I'm using the same technique in this post . You still have two spaces between sentences, one before and after the punctuation mark . I confess it isn't my punctuation preference ! But if Sarah is an "OF" and I've got a kid her age, I suppose that makes me an "AOF" . That might explain my reluctance to accept change . . . :)

GalaxyBoy 10-20-2011 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunningBum
I type in a post with the standard 2 spaces after a period, but then I look at it after submitting the post, and there's only a single period. It looks like it's happening to everyone. As a test, I'll put in 4 spaces after this sentence. Are there 4 spaces before this one?

Using the ER Forum app on iPhone I see the spaces just as you typed them. Which is just how I learned to type on a manual typewriter and how I will type until the day I die.

kombat 10-20-2011 07:51 AM

FYI, it's probably not the forum software stripping out extra spaces. It's part of the HTML standard. Browsers are required to ignore extra spaces and do their own formatting. There are, of course ways around this, such as the use of the "code" tag, as already noted. I'm just saying, don't blame the forum software. Even if it dutifully left in 100 space characters after the period at the end of this sentence, your browser would be required to squish it all down to a single space. Blame the WWW Consortium.

ERD50 10-20-2011 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1122917)
FYI, it's probably not the forum software stripping out extra spaces. It's part of the HTML standard. Browsers are required to ignore extra spaces and do their own formatting. There are, of course ways around this, such as the use of the "code" tag, as already noted. I'm just saying, don't blame the forum software. Even if it dutifully left in 100 space characters after the period at the end of this sentence, your browser would be required to squish it all down to a single space. Blame the WWW Consortium.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1122917)
FYI, it's probably not the forum software stripping out extra spaces. It's part of the HTML standard. Browsers are required to ignore extra spaces and do their own formatting. There are, of course ways around this, such as the use of the "code" tag, as already noted. I'm just saying, don't blame the forum software. Even if it dutifully left in 100 space characters after the period at the end of this sentence, your browser would be required to squish it all down to a single space. Blame the WWW Consortium.

I'm no www/html expert, but that doesn't sound right to me based on experience with other forums.

As a test, I created a document in LibreOffice with different spaces, exported it as html, and when my browser read the file in, all the spaces were preserved as typed.

Maybe that author meant 'the html code in the text window'. It just doesn't sound right to me that any standard would strip extra spaces. No other program we use does that.

-ERD50

RunningBum 10-20-2011 08:20 AM

I thought this was the only place I noticed single spaces, but I just looked at another board I post at and see the same thing. I didn't realize that single spacing was being taught now. I thought it was some ER-specific setting, but it probably isn't. I'll live with it, though I would prefer it to leave spaces as I type them without having to jump through hoops.

Sarah in SC 10-20-2011 08:25 AM

Other places on the web take my extra space away, too. Not just the meanies here at ER-org. ;) I will endeavor to persevere, though, and just let it go.

ERD50 10-20-2011 08:28 AM

Hmmm, so I looked at the SOURCE of this page, and my post #2 SOURCE has the spaces retained as I typed them. So they are not stripped out by the software, but the browser is stripping them out, but I don't think this happens in every site.

I'm guessing that the er.org source code needs something in the source header that is generated to tell my browser to preserve spaces? Can I over-ride that, or do we need er.org to make the change to how they create the pages? It sure would make formatting posts much, much easier (the code & table tags have drawbacks).

-ERD50

GregLee 10-20-2011 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1122917)
FYI, it's probably not the forum software stripping out extra spaces.. It's part of the HTML standard.. Browsers are required to ignore extra spaces and do their own formatting.. There are, of course ways around this, such as the use of the "code" tag, as already noted.. I'm just saying, don't blame the forum software.. Even if it dutifully left in 100 space characters after the period at the end of this sentence, your browser would be required to squish it all down to a single space.. Blame the WWW Consortium.

Here's another way around it.. Notice the extra space after sentences in the above quoted passage.

Texas Proud 10-20-2011 09:19 AM

You can always add extra periods..... :rofl:

Sarah in SC 10-20-2011 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud (Post 1122935)
You can always add extra periods..... :rofl:

But no women would recommend that option, and I doubt that few men would, either. :coolsmiley:

Achiever51 10-20-2011 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah in SC (Post 1122938)
But no women would recommend that option, and I doubt that few men would, either. :coolsmiley:


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Bahahahahaha!
And put me down as another oldie who learned how to type on a MANUAL typewriter. I will never adjust to the one space after a period...muscle memory is permanently fused to add a double space on every device I use.

ERD50 10-20-2011 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1122931)
Here's another way around it.. Notice the extra space after sentences in the above quoted passage.

That'll do it, but I doubt anyone wants to insert a bunch of white "."s in their text.

Code:

<font color="White">.</font>
-ERD50

Texas Proud 10-20-2011 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah in SC (Post 1122938)
But no women would recommend that option, and I doubt that few men would, either. :coolsmiley:


Good one... and I did not even know I was throwing a softball... :facepalm:

powerplay 10-20-2011 10:01 AM

This also happened on Usenet so no matter how many spaces you put between sentences it posted with one space. Does anyone remember Usenet?

GregLee 10-20-2011 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1122942)
That'll do it, but I doubt anyone wants to insert a bunch of white "."s in their text.

It might be possible to add to the forum software an emoticon which displays as a space (preferably narrow). I looked about the Web for one but couldn't find any.

ERD50 10-20-2011 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1122953)
It might be possible to add to the forum software an emoticon which displays as a space (preferably narrow). I looked about the Web for one but couldn't find any.

That is still far too tedious compared to hitting the SPACE bar. From a little googling, and my successful experiment in creating a plain html file that preserves spaces w/o any coaxing, it appears to me that there is some code in the source of the web page that tells it to strip out consecutive white-spaces.

If that were set to preserve instead (which seems to be the default), we could see our posts as they were intended, rather than having them cyber-edited.

Try for yourself, save this file and then open it in your browser:

(ooops, the forum software does not support attaching an html file), so just copy/paste this into a word processor, and export as html, then open that file in your browser. If it works trhe same as it did for me, the spaces will be preserved, and as yu can see, there is nothing specifically telling it to do that. So something in the way the forum produces these pages must set something that tells it to strip the white-space.


Code:

01 spaces. Next
02 spaces.  Next
06 spaces.      Next

-ERD50

kombat 10-20-2011 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1122922)
I created a document in LibreOffice with different spaces, exported it as html, and when my browser read the file in, all the spaces were preserved as typed.

Look at the HTML source code. It's probable that LibreOffice "knew" that you intentionally wanted all those extra spaces, so it replaced them with HTML "&nbsp;" (code for non-breaking space) characters in the HTML source file. Browsers will respect the special &nbsp; character (likewise with using the <br> tag to force a line break).

But all this is really trying to "trick" HTML into doing something it was never intended to do. HTML is a contextual markup language, not a strict formatting language. The whole idea of HTML was to allow the author to specify content and general preferences, while leaving the specific rendering up to the individual browsers themselves, so they could give whatever special treatment is necessary to display the content in a visually pleasing manner on a number of very diverse devices (everything from your computer monitor to your TV to your cell phone/iPod). Forcing 100 blanks spaces or line breaks or font sizes might look just fine on your particular computer monitor (with your particular browser and screen resolution), but it might look choppy and disjointed when rendered on a Blackberry.

There are tricks that let you specify those kinds of things, but you're not supposed to.

GregLee 10-20-2011 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1122965)
... there is some code in the source of the web page that tells it to strip out consecutive white-spaces.

Yes, there must be, since in some circumstances, multiple spaces are preserved. But in ordinary text (not, e.g., inside "code" tags), multiple spaces will be lost each time your local browser reformats the lines for display. I've just satisfied myself that is so by saving your post as an html file, editing it on my local system by adding some multiple spaces, then displaying that with my browser. The multiple spaces disappeared on screen. So I really think the only feasible method will be to trick the system, somehow.

ERD50 10-20-2011 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1122978)
Look at the HTML source code. It's probable that LibreOffice "knew" that you intentionally wanted all those extra spaces, so it replaced them with HTML "&nbsp;" (code for non-breaking space) characters in the HTML source file. Browsers will respect the special &nbsp; character (likewise with using the <br> tag to force a line break). ...

OK, so I'm learning some things here. I thought the html file was very basic, but I opened in a plain text editor, and I see that LibreOffice did add a lot of formatting overhead:

Code:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1 plus MathML 2.0//EN" "https://www.w3.org/Math/DTD/mathml2/xhtml-math11-f.dtd">
<html xmlns="https://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><!--This file was converted to xhtml by OpenOffice.org - see https://xml.openoffice.org/odf2xhtml for more info.--><head profile="https://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8"/><title xmlns:ns_1="https://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" ns_1:lang="en-US">- no title specified</title><meta xmlns:ns_1="https://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" name="DCTERMS.title" content="" ns_1:lang="en-US"/><meta name="DCTERMS.language" content="en-US" scheme="DCTERMS.RFC4646"/><meta name="DCTERMS.source" content="https://xml.openoffice.org/odf2xhtml"/><meta name="DCTERMS.creator" content="ERD50 "/><meta name="DCTERMS.issued" content="2011-10-20T08:56:50" scheme="DCTERMS.W3CDTF"/><meta name="DCTERMS.contributor" content="ERD50 "/><meta name="DCTERMS.modified" content="2011-10-20T08:57:52" scheme="DCTERMS.W3CDTF"/><meta xmlns:ns_1="https://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" name="DCTERMS.provenance" content="" ns_1:lang="en-US"/><meta xmlns:ns_1="https://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace" name="DCTERMS.subject" content="," ns_1:lang="en-US"/><link rel="schema.DC" href="https://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" hreflang="en"/><link rel="schema.DCTERMS" href="https://purl.org/dc/terms/" hreflang="en"/><link rel="schema.DCTYPE" href="https://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/" hreflang="en"/><link rel="schema.DCAM" href="https://purl.org/dc/dcam/" hreflang="en"/><style type="text/css">
        @page {  }
        table { border-collapse:collapse; border-spacing:0; empty-cells:show }
        td, th { vertical-align:top; font-size:12pt;}
        h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6 { clear:both }
        ol, ul { margin:0; padding:0;}
        li { list-style: none; margin:0; padding:0;}
        <!-- "li span.odfLiEnd" - IE 7 issue-->
        li span. { clear: both; line-height:0; width:0; height:0; margin:0; padding:0; }
        span.footnodeNumber { padding-right:1em; }
        span.annotation_style_by_filter { font-size:95%; font-family:Arial; background-color:#fff000;  margin:0; border:0; padding:0;  }
        * { margin:0;}
        .Standard { font-size:12pt; font-family:Times New Roman; writing-mode:page; }
        <!-- ODF styles with no properties representable as CSS -->
        { }
        </style></head><body dir="ltr" style="max-width:8.5in;margin-top:0.7874in; margin-bottom:0.7874in; margin-left:0.7874in; margin-right:0.7874in; writing-mode:lr-tb; "><p class="Standard">01 spaces. Next
</p><p class="Standard">02 spaces. *Next
</p><p class="Standard">06 spaces. * * *Next</p></body></html>

But I don't know enough to know what that means. I don't see the "&nbsp;" you mention, but it looks like the <p class="Standard"> may be telling it to preserve the spaces?




Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1122985)
Yes, there must be, since in some circumstances, multiple spaces are preserved. But in ordinary text (not, e.g., inside "code" tags), multiple spaces will be lost each time your local browser reformats the lines for display. I've just satisfied myself that is so by saving your post as an html file, editing it on my local system by adding some multiple spaces, then displaying that with my browser. The multiple spaces disappeared on screen. So I really think the only feasible method will be to trick the system, somehow.

Yes, I convinced myself of that when I looked at the source (right click 'view source') on my post #2 - the spaces are there in the source, it isn't the post editor that strips them out, but something in the way it is tells the browser (or doesn't tell it) to display the spaces.


-ERD50

TromboneAl 10-20-2011 02:32 PM

1. On the iPhone app, all the spaces are still there.

2. You guys have spent way too much time on this issue -- and that's coming from me, the grammar policeman.

samclem 10-20-2011 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1122978)
But all this is really trying to "trick" HTML into doing something it was never intended to do.
. . . There are tricks that let you specify those kinds of things, but you're not supposed to.

Like the "helpful" photocopy machine: Put a note on the platten, hit the green button. The machine won't copy--for reasons only it knows--"incorrect paper size", "Select desired paper source", "LP1 Error,"
etc.

JUST MAKE THE $%*&@ COPY LIKE I ASKED YOU TO!

GregLee 10-20-2011 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl (Post 1123051)
2. You guys have spent way too much time on this issue -- and that's coming from me, the grammar policeman.

I couldn't disagree with you more. There is enough ugliness in the world without adding to it with incompetent typography. Many very talented designers over the last centuries have labored to make beautiful books. Donald Knuth, the author of The Art of Computer Programming, devoted a substantial part of his later years to the engineering and the aesthetics of the distribution of white space in text.

ERD50 10-20-2011 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem (Post 1123056)
Like the "helpful" photocopy machine: Put a note on the platten, hit the green button. The machine won't copy--for reasons only it knows--"incorrect paper size", "Select desired paper source", "LP1 Error,"
etc.

JUST MAKE THE $%*&@ COPY LIKE I ASKED YOU TO!

That wasn't a Federal Reserve 'note' you were trying to copy, was it? ;) (see the other thread on not accepting cash).

I understand that copiers, printers and scanners have some built in detectors for money, and will refuse to scan/print it. Giving a detailed error message might not be the best security. Let people blame the Windows driver! :laugh:

-ERD50

kombat 10-21-2011 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123065)
I understand that copiers, printers and scanners have some built in detectors for money, and will refuse to scan/print it.

That's true. Also, recent versions of Photoshop will not let you work with currency.

East Texas 10-21-2011 06:39 AM

Back when I was a young 'un typing class was mandatory in the 9th grade. We started out on the manuals and, when we got pretty good, progressed to the electric typewriters. One wrong tap on the space bar could send you into extra-spaces neverland. Then you had to back up and the timed words per minute went all to hell dickens. I'm not sure typing is even offered in junior high / high school any more.

As for me, I'm a one-spacer between sentences. It's what I learned and how I type today.

(On a side note: remember getting through the typing lesson early and getting to play with the "go over 15 spaces and type seven 'b's...." to make a pretty cool drawing?)

ERD50 10-21-2011 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by East Texas (Post 1123183)

(On a side note: remember getting through the typing lesson early and getting to play with the "go over 15 spaces and type seven 'b's...." to make a pretty cool drawing?)


Check this out for 'ASCII ART":

Chris.com - ASCII ART - Buildings - Barn - Barns - floorplan - bathroom - House - Houses - Housing - Québec - Canada


-ERD50

MichaelB 10-21-2011 07:13 AM

Here’s an opinion (here)
Quote:

Can I let you in on a secret? Typing two spaces after a period is totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong.
To back up this judgment he references typographers.
Quote:

The people who study and design the typewritten word decided long ago that we should use one space, not two, between sentences. That convention was not arrived at casually. James Felici, author of the The Complete Manual of Typography, points out that the early history of type is one of inconsistent spacing. Hundreds of years ago some typesetters would end sentences with a double space, others would use a single space, and a few renegades would use three or four spaces. Inconsistency reigned in all facets of written communication; there were few conventions regarding spelling, punctuation, character design, and ways to add emphasis to type. But as typesetting became more widespread, its practitioners began to adopt best practices. Felici writes that typesetters in Europe began to settle on a single space around the early 20th century. America followed soon after.
His conclusion
Quote:

But I actually think aesthetics are the best argument in favor of one space over two. One space is simpler, cleaner, and more visually pleasing (it also requires less work, which isn't nothing). A page of text with two spaces between every sentence looks riddled with holes; a page of text with an ordinary space looks just as it should.

kombat 10-21-2011 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB (Post 1123187)
Here’s an opinion (here)
To back up this judgment he references typographers.
Quote:

A page of text with two spaces between every sentence looks riddled with holes; a page of text with an ordinary space looks just as it should.

But aesthetics, by definition, are subjective. One could just as easily argue that a page of text formatted with paragraphs looks "riddled with holes," whereas a page devoid of paragraphs looks "just as it should."

I'm a 2-spacer. It's how I learned, and I don't care enough to fight muscle memory and try and change it.

M Paquette 10-21-2011 08:34 AM

Ligatures. We has them.

(it's a typesetting geek thing, used to represent common multi-glyph sequences with a typographically correct compound glyph. Period-space is a ligature in some typefaces.)

GregLee 10-21-2011 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB (Post 1123187)
Quote:

James Felici, author of the The Complete Manual of Typography, points out that the early history of type is one of inconsistent spacing.

He should have read his reference more carefully.. Here is what Felici says about what you should do on a typewriter:
Quote:

On a typewriter, using two word spaces after a period makes sense and is, in fact, typographically the right thing to do. That's because typewriters use monospaced typefaces, in which every character has the same width.
To Double-Space or Not to Double-Space... | CreativePro.com
But when using a proportional font, as most of us do use when typing into a browser, Felici concludes:
Quote:

Modern spacing aesthetics aside, the main reason not to use two word spaces (or an em space) between sentences is that people will think you're doing it out of ignorance.
Now, whatever one thinks of two word spaces between sentences, using a proportional font, it is not at all what I'm talking about.. Above, I said that in print, a space intermediate between the space used between words and two such spaces was ordinary.. Not two word spaces.. In the little example I gave above, using a trick to get more space between sentences, I did not use two word spaces -- I used a word space plus the width of a period.. I've done that here, too (it's not that much work).. My other suggestion was to use an emoticon which displays as a narrow space.

Sarah in SC 10-21-2011 08:58 AM

Refreshing change from politics, anyway.

Janet H 10-21-2011 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunningBum (Post 1122860)
I type in a post with the standard 2 spaces after a period, but then I look at it after submitting the post, and there's only a single period. It looks like it's happening to everyone. As a test, I'll put in 4 spaces after this sentence. Are there 4 spaces before this one?

It looks like the software is removing extra spaces, but 2 spaces between sentences is standard, not 1. I think 1 makes a longer paragraph a lot less readable. Can this be fixed?

I'm using Firefox 7.0.1 on Windows7.

So..... have you gotten an adequate answer? If not, and to summarize the preceding posts, the forum software strips out the extras. You can use white characters if you really need more space but all that unoccupied space increases scrolling for

.
.
.
.
.
.

readers ;D

:flowers:

kombat 10-21-2011 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123208)
But when using a proportional font, as most of us do use when typing into a browser

Again, not to nitpick, but as a web developer, I just want to clarify one thing. Usually, when you're composing content for the web, you don't specify the font. You're just specifying the content. The font is up to the individual viewer's browser. They could specify whatever font they want for their "default" font, including a monospaced font like Courier New.

Now, again, of course you can force a particular font, size, colour, whatever on your content, so that you can be certain all your viewers will see your page in purple 12-point Verdana or whatever. But you're not supposed to, because visitors might have perfectly valid reasons for wanting the page to render using the font they've specified themselves, such as poor eyesight (they want text to appear in 18-point), colour blindness (they can't read purple text on a pink background), or maybe they're visually impaired and using a text-to-speech reader that doesn't recognize whatever font you've specified.

"Best Practices" of the web dictate that you should just provide the content, and let the end users' browsers handle the specific formatting and rendering. But thanks to CSS, people have gotten it into their head that the Web is just one big Microsoft Word document, and they want the page to look exactly the same in everybody's browser, on every platform, regardless of peoples' individual needs and preferences.

All that to say, unless you're violating best practices and explicitely specifying a typeface, then you can't be certain that your visitors are reading your text in a proportional-spaced font. They could be viewing it in a monospaced font.

kombat 10-21-2011 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janet H (Post 1123229)
to summarize the preceding posts, the forum software strips out the extra [periods]

I'm still not convinced that's the case. I think it's the browsers doing any space-compression that may be occurring. Different browsers (and even different versions of the same browser) handle formatting unpredictably, and can even vary based on user preference settings.

I still don't think the forum software has anything to do with it. I'm pretty sure your posts are just stored in a mySql database somewhere, exactly as you typed them, and faithfully regurgitated back to other viewers, where IE or Firefox or Safari or whatever makes a decision whether or not to render the 2 spaces you put after a period, or whether to squish them down to one.

EDIT: In fact, I just confirmed it. All of my posts have 2 spaces after every period. But when I see them here, there's only a single space. However, if I "View Source" and look at the actual HTML code that was delivered to my browser by the forum's PHP software, the double-spacing after periods is clearly there. So it's not the forum software. It's your browsers.

TromboneAl 10-21-2011 11:24 AM

Now I'm worried that people on other forums are going to find out what we discuss all day, and make fun of us.

bbbamI 10-21-2011 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl (Post 1123260)
Now I'm worried that people on other forums are going to find out what we discuss all day, and make fun of us.

Ya think? :laugh:

To add.... to the ........fun, I've ...created spaces. .......It's ..magic. :rolleyes:

REWahoo 10-21-2011 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl (Post 1123051)
2. You guys have spent way too much time on this issue -- and that's coming from me, the grammar policeman.

Grammar policeman and now space cop...

ERD50 10-21-2011 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1123245)
I'm still not convinced that's the case. I think it's the browsers doing any space-compression that may be occurring. Different browsers (and even different versions of the same browser) handle formatting unpredictably, and can even vary based on user preference settings.

I still don't think the forum software has anything to do with it. I'm pretty sure your posts are just stored in a mySql database somewhere, exactly as you typed them, and faithfully regurgitated back to other viewers, where IE or Firefox or Safari or whatever makes a decision whether or not to render the 2 spaces you put after a period, or whether to squish them down to one.

EDIT: In fact, I just confirmed it. All of my posts have 2 spaces after every period. But when I see them here, there's only a single space. However, if I "View Source" and look at the actual HTML code that was delivered to my browser by the forum's PHP software, the double-spacing after periods is clearly there. So it's not the forum software. It's your browsers.

See my post #15 - I saw the same thing in the source code.

However, I'm going to disagree that the forum SW has nothing to do with it. When the forum software builds the page, it contains the codes (or defaults) to tell the browser what to do with consecutive white-spaces. So it appears to me that the forum SW could construct the pages such that it preserves consecutive white-spaces in the posts.

FWIW - I don't personally care about double-spaced sentences, but deleting the white-space sure screws up attempts to post columnar data, and I find the table thing to be far more awkward than just hitting the space bar.

Browsers should NOT be handling the formatting differently, they should be standards compliant.


-ERD50

GregLee 10-21-2011 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1123243)
... you can't be certain that your visitors are reading your text in a proportional-spaced font. They could be viewing it in a monospaced font.

Well, I did say that most of us use a proportional font to type text into our browsers.

I don't think your "best practice" of delivering only content to your browser typifies what many of us actually do.. I supply many formatting commands along with textual content, specifying font, size color, list-type paragraphing, left vs. right alignment of paragraphs, and so on, and I see many others doing this, as well.

GregLee 10-21-2011 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123283)
So it appears to me that the forum SW could construct the pages such that it preserves consecutive white-spaces in the posts.

But according to what kombat just wrote (and despite what Janet says), the forum SW does preserve consecutive white-spaces.. Your browser removes them when it interprets the HTML for display on your computer screen.. If you mean that the forum software should construct the HTML it sends in such a fashion that the consecutive space characters you originally typed are displayed on your screen with twice the white space that a single space character gives, I suppose that would be possible by using the trick I demonstrated and changing some space characters into, say, "n"s, in invisible ink.. Is that the sort of thing you have in mind?

ERD50 10-21-2011 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123408)
But according to what kombat just wrote (and despite what Janet says), the forum SW does preserve consecutive white-spaces.. Your browser removes them when it interprets the HTML for display on your computer screen.. If you mean that the forum software should construct the HTML it sends in such a fashion that the consecutive space characters you originally typed are displayed on your screen with twice the white space that a single space character gives, I suppose that would be possible by using the trick I demonstrated and changing some space characters into, say, "n"s, in invisible ink.. Is that the sort of thing you have in mind?

No, you are misunderstanding what I meant.

Yes, the forum SW does not remove them from what you type. And yes, the browser does not display them. But, the browser does so because it is following the commands (or lack of commands) that are listed on the page that the forum SW produces. I don't know enough about the details of html commands to know if this is the default, or if it must be stated explicitly to retain the spaces. But the contents of the page (produced by the forum SW) can specify to the browser if it should compress or retain the consecutive spaces.

No, I don't want any 'tricks' applied, I just want the forum SW to embed the command into the web page that it produces to tell the browser to display the consecutive white spaces as they were typed.

Here's a kind of pseudo-code representation, assuming that removing consecutive white-spaces is the default:

-------------

Do all the typical html overhead to present the page outline, headers etc,
Do the html to present the post header, author, etc

NOW - just before presenting the poster's text - send the command to preserve all white-spaces

/////poster's text goes here/////

turn off the command to preserve all white-spaces (if it would interfere with other displays)

-------------

That's all - just present the text the way the author typed it. Don't do any cyber-editing of it.


-ERD50

GregLee 10-21-2011 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123411)
That's all - just present the text the way the author typed it. Don't do any cyber-editing of it.

But the browser has to do cyber-editing, because it has to break up paragraphs into lines that will just fit into a box whose size differs depending on the dimensions you've assigned to your browser window.n As you watch some text, try resizing the browser window, and you will see how the text is "re-flowed" into new screen lines.n It's just what browsers do.n And part of the line breaking process (I mean dividing a paragraph into screen lines) is discarding of certain spaces, since after you have a screen line, you don't want to display any space that originally separated the first word of the line from the preceding word, nor a space that originally separated the last word of the screen line from the following word.

So the browser has to edit, and it has to discard some spaces.n You want to change the way it edits, so that it will display all of the sequences of spaces that wind up on the screen interior to a line.n Your proposal assumes that there is some global editing command available that tells the browser that.n I don't think there is.

Just for fun, I put two full word spaces between sentences in what I typed above, so we could see what your proposal, if it were feasible, would give us.

ERD50 10-21-2011 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123416)
But the browser has to do cyber-editing, because it has to break up paragraphs into lines that will just fit into a box whose size differs depending on the dimensions you've assigned to your browser window.n As you watch some text, try resizing the browser window, and you will see how the text is "re-flowed" into new screen lines.n It's just what browsers do.n And part of the line breaking process (I mean dividing a paragraph into screen lines) is discarding of certain spaces, since after you have a screen line, you don't want to display any space that originally separated the first word of the line from the preceding word, nor a space that originally separated the last word of the screen line from the following word.

So the browser has to edit, and it has to discard some spaces.n You want to change the way it edits, so that it will display all of the sequences of spaces that wind up on the screen interior to a line.n Your proposal assumes that there is some global editing command available that tells the browser that.n I don't think there is.

Just for fun, I put two full word spaces between sentences in what I typed above, so we could see what your proposal, if it were feasible, would give us.

Sure, but that is just a matter of deciding when to start a new line to fit the width of the box. But that doesn't mean it needs to remove any white spaces. Let's see if this crude example works (use a fairly wide box), and I'll substitute "-" for " ".:


Here-is-some-
text.--It-is-in-a-
very-narrow-
box.


Here-is-some-text.--It-is-in-a-wider-
box.


So it line breaks when the next full word does not fit on the line. No typed white space removal required. That how my text editor does it when I resize the width.

-ERD50

GregLee 10-21-2011 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123418)
That how my text editor does it when I resize the width.

I doubt that very much.. The spaces at the ends of lines in your example, which you represent with hyphens, are of course not visible, so there is no point in having them there, and leaving them there will reduce the number of words per screen line, overall, and hence increase the number of screen lines required for some paragraphs, to no purpose.. I've seen and written some line breaking code in my day, and it just doesn't work the way you think it does.

ERD50 10-21-2011 09:28 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123422)
I doubt that very much. ....


Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, it appears to work exactly as I described. Some screen shots of my text editor:

But actually, I'm not concerned with the wrapping, that would mess up a table of data anyhow. But the spaces within the width should be preserved (like the double space in my previous example, which were mid-box)

-ERD50

GregLee 10-21-2011 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123424)
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, it appears to work exactly as I described. Some screen shots of my text editor:

I appreciate the effort you've gone to here, but I don't understand your reasoning.. Why have you concluded that the interword spaces in the original text are shown at the ends of lines in the gedit screens?. I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe gedit does put those interword spaces on screen at the ends of lines, but how can you tell?. Do you think that if the spaces at the ends of lines had been removed that in some cases there would have been room for another word at the end of the line?

ERD50 10-21-2011 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123428)
I appreciate the effort you've gone to here, but I don't understand your reasoning.. Why have you concluded that the interword spaces in the original text are shown at the ends of lines in the gedit screens?. I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe gedit does put those interword spaces on screen at the ends of lines, but how can you tell?. Do you think that if the spaces at the ends of lines had been removed that in some cases there would have been room for another word at the end of the line?

I think we're getting sidetracked with the end-of-line space or no space. That isn't my concern.

My concern is to be able to simply use a mono-spaced font to display a few columns of data and pad it with spaces to have it all align for easy reading. For that, it is assumed that the text box is opened wide enough to view the columns w/o wrapping, or it is all jumbled no matter what else you do. Here's the same text, but the auto delete of the spaces used for padding messes it up, only the 'code' tags preserve the spaces, and make it easy to read.


Some numbers: 100,000 10,000 1,000
Other #'s: 99,999 9,999 999



Code:

Some numbers: 100,000  10,000  1,000
Other #'s:    99,999  9,999    999

I'd like it to work as it does with the 'code' tags, but those create other minor issues.

-ERD50

GregLee 10-21-2011 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123433)
I'd like it to work as it does with the 'code' tags, but those create other minor issues.

I think that is a very reasonable proposal.. You, Felici, and I are all in agreement that with a monospaced font, the typographically best way to separate sentences is with two spaces, and, as you point out, having gone that far, we could easily just retain all multiple spaces within a line and gain the ability to do tabular alignment in simple cases.. And without the "code" tags.. But we still have the problem that it appears to be impossible to do this by just modifying the forum software.

RunningBum 10-22-2011 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janet H (Post 1123229)
So..... have you gotten an adequate answer? If not, and to summarize the preceding posts, the forum software strips out the extras. You can use white characters if you really need more space but all that unoccupied space increases scrolling for
readers ;D

:flowers:

Yep, and I kinda stopped following this! I can live with it.

rescueme 10-22-2011 08:00 AM

As to the OP's question, and based upon my primary education being provided by the "penguins" (e.g. nuns), I was always instructed to use punctuation in a manner that would allow the writing to be read out loud, with the punctuation being used to tell the reader how to speak.

That meant two spaces between sentences (along with the period), two lines between paragraphs(two "CR"'s or carriage returns - for the old folks), and speech stress being provided by underlines.

Exclamation points at the end of the sentence were only used to express excitement in the utterance (such as an organism, which was frowned upon by my instructor :coolsmiley: ).

Anyway, that's what "sister said" :laugh:....

ERD50 10-22-2011 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123437)
...we could easily just retain all multiple spaces within a line and gain the ability to do tabular alignment in simple cases.. And without the "code" tags.. But we still have the problem that it appears to be impossible to do this by just modifying the forum software.

I disagree that it is impossible for the forum SW to do this.

When I enter this text into LibreOffice, and export it as html, my browser displays it with all multiple spaces retained, just as it appears here (specify a fixed font in the Word Processor):

Code:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:123456Next
With 6 spaces intact:      Next
With 2 spaces intact:  Next
With 1 spaces intact: Next

If the page created by LibreOffice can do it with standard html, so can the forum SW.

-ERD50

kombat 10-22-2011 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123411)
Yes, the forum SW does not remove them from what you type. And yes, the browser does not display them. But, the browser does so because it is following the commands (or lack of commands) that are listed on the page that the forum SW produces. I don't know enough about the details of html commands to know if this is the default, or if it must be stated explicitly to retain the spaces.

Yes, this is the default (as it should be), and yes, it must be stated explicitly to retain the spaces. The forum administrators would do this by specifying particular CSS properties to override the browser default. Personally, I don't think they should (and frankly, I'm not even certain what specific CSS properties would accomplish this - I'm merely assuming it's in there somewhere).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123411)
No, I don't want any 'tricks' applied,

Overriding the default behaviour with obscure CSS settings would be a "trick."

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123411)
I just want the forum SW to embed the command into the web page that it produces to tell the browser to display the consecutive white spaces as they were typed.

I disagree. As I said before, there's a very good reason that such formatting is left up to the individual browser, and it's because the author cannot be certain what kind of device the content will be displayed on. The spacing you're asking for would probably look fine in your browser, on your computer, with your particular monitor resolution. But how would it look on an iPod? A Kindle? A PS3? The programmers who wrote the browsers for all those various platforms know how best to render text, so it doesn't make sense to try and override them. If anything, you should be hounding the authors of FireFox (or whatever browser you're using) to provide a user-configurable setting that would allow you to specify you want double-spaces preserved. Other users could leave it as the default. It would be up to the individual user. As it should be.

GregLee 10-22-2011 10:42 AM

Browser and forum software is evolving all the time to make the text we use to have these conversations more expressive and more pleasing to the eye.. The forum software here seems quite advanced, to me, and has better facilities for displaying links and graphics than I've seen elsewhere.. But there is lots more that could be done.. Look at some of the math and other technical entries in the Wikipedia; the authors of the Wikipedia software have worked hard to produce some remarkable results.. I expect some of that advanced formatting to make its way down to our local browsers soon, so we can all use it.

ERD50 10-22-2011 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1123523)
Yes, this is the default (as it should be), and yes, it must be stated explicitly to retain the spaces. The forum administrators would do this by specifying particular CSS properties to override the browser default. Personally, I don't think they should (and frankly, I'm not even certain what specific CSS properties would accomplish this - I'm merely assuming it's in there somewhere).



Overriding the default behaviour with obscure CSS settings would be a "trick."



I disagree. As I said before, there's a very good reason that such formatting is left up to the individual browser, and it's because the author cannot be certain what kind of device the content will be displayed on. The spacing you're asking for would probably look fine in your browser, on your computer, with your particular monitor resolution. But how would it look on an iPod? A Kindle? A PS3? The programmers who wrote the browsers for all those various platforms know how best to render text, so it doesn't make sense to try and override them. If anything, you should be hounding the authors of FireFox (or whatever browser you're using) to provide a user-configurable setting that would allow you to specify you want double-spaces preserved. Other users could leave it as the default. It would be up to the individual user. As it should be.

Thanks for the reply (I'm also guessing that CSS comes into play here, but I'm over my head on this stuff).

But I'm not following how having this displayed (pretend the code box does not exists:

Code:

Some numbers: 100,000  10,000  1,000
Other #'s:    99,999  9,999    999

versus having it show up like this:

Some numbers: 100,000 10,000 1,000
Other #'s: 99,999 9,999 999

is going to be affected by whether I view it on my computer, iPad or other device. If my screen is not wide enough to display the columns, it's getting jumbled regardless. And in a post like this, I'm not going to be normally putting together 80 char wide columnar data. Just little notes. The downside seems small compared to the upside.

I see greglee's post - I agree, if the user could over-ride the default, it would probably be best. I don't know if a user can define their own CSS for a site? Seems I've seen references to that, but it is beyond my present (very limited) knowledge (but I like to learn).



-ERD50

M Paquette 10-22-2011 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50

Thanks for the reply (I'm also guessing that CSS comes into play here, but I'm over my head on this stuff).

But I'm not following how having this displayed (pretend the code box does not exists:

Some numbers: 100,000 10,000 1,000
Other #'s: 99,999 9,999 999

versus having it show up like this:

Some numbers: 100,000 10,000 1,000
Other #'s: 99,999 9,999 999

is going to be affected by whether I view it on my computer, iPad or other device. If my screen is not wide enough to display the columns, it's getting jumbled regardless. And in a post like this, I'm not going to be normally putting together 80 char wide columnar data. Just little notes. The downside seems small compared to the upside.

I see greglee's post - I agree, if the user could over-ride the default, it would probably be best. I don't know if a user can define their own CSS for a site? Seems I've seen references to that, but it is beyond my present (very limited) knowledge (but I like to learn).

-ERD50

It will vary with the precise details of the computer font installed on the particular device. You could take things to the extreme and specify within the code for the web page that the content be rendered with 12 point New Times Roman, and there would still be room for variations, as for example between the TrueType font layout meta programming within different versions of New Times Roman as shipped for different devices. (Yes, most typefaces include not just glyphs and their layout information, but also include a sort of program that is run by text layout code to determine just which glyphs should be used, and how those glyphs should be permuted.)

To get the desired behavior for whitespace the user content will have to be specified to appear as a fixed width font with no layout options, forcing one glyph per encoded character with no permutations or layout options possible.

If the intent of the HTML generated for the site is to support presentation on multiple devices, with varying layout and no guarantees of what specific font implementations are present, I'd have to say that folks trying to do page layout with varying whitespace character counts are not going to be particularly successful. This just might be part of why the HTML "table" tag was developed.

https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_tables.asp

ERD50 10-22-2011 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Paquette (Post 1123573)
It will vary with the precise details of the computer font installed on the particular device. You could take things to the extreme and specify within the code for the web page that the content be rendered with 12 point New Times Roman, and there would still be room for variations, as for example between the TrueType font layout meta programming within different versions of New Times Roman as shipped for different devices. (Yes, most typefaces include not just glyphs and their layout information, but also include a sort of program that is run by text layout code to determine just which glyphs should be used, and how those glyphs should be permuted.)

To get the desired behavior for whitespace the user content will have to be specified to appear as a fixed width font with no layout options, forcing one glyph per encoded character with no permutations or layout options possible.

If the intent of the HTML generated for the site is to support presentation on multiple devices, with varying layout and no guarantees of what specific font implementations are present, I'd have to say that folks trying to do page layout with varying whitespace character counts are not going to be particularly successful. This just might be part of why the HTML "table" tag was developed.

HTML Tables

Yes, I just find it odd that if I go to the trouble of specifying a mono-spaced font (which is not the default, so I'm taking a specific action), and it is in a posting text box (not general page layout stuff) that it doesn't also preserve the spaces.

Tables are fine, but they take a little extra work to get the "|" char in there.

Some numbers: 100,000 10,000 1,000
Other #'s: 99,999 9,999 999

Code:

Some numbers: |100,000 |10,000 |1,000
Other #'s: |99,999 |9,999 |999

-ERD50

GregLee 10-22-2011 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 (Post 1123589)
Yes, I just find it odd that if I go to the trouble of specifying a mono-spaced font (which is not the default, so I'm taking a specific action), and it is in a posting text box (not general page layout stuff) that it doesn't also preserve the spaces.

I agree with you here.. Since mono-spaced fonts are ugly, there's a good chance that when a user specifies Courier New, he's doing that because of an alignment issue.. So the browser ought not to sabotage his efforts by making alignment essentially impossible for ordinary paragraphed text.

East Texas 10-22-2011 07:27 PM

Sigh... it was all so much easier in 9th grade typing class. "Put one and only one space after the punctuation ending a sentence 'cause I said so..." and that was that.:horse:

M Paquette 10-22-2011 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123599)
I agree with you here.. Since mono-spaced fonts are ugly, there's a good chance that when a user specifies Courier New, he's doing that because of an alignment issue.. So the browser ought not to sabotage his efforts by making alignment essentially impossible for ordinary paragraphed text.

It's an interesting point. The HTML specification leaves the interpretation of sequences of white space separating "words", or "sequences of non-white space characters" to the user agent (such as the browser) to identify such words and lay them out according to the conventions of the particular written language (script) and target medium.

The layout operation may include putting space between words, although conventions for inter-word spacing vary from script to script. The HTML 4 specification, Section 9, specifically calls for user agents to collapse input white space sequences when producing output inter-word space, except when within a PRE HTML element, used for preformatted text.

If you wish to have all agents preserve input white space sequences when a fixed pitch font is selected, in effect declaring all uses of fixed pitch fonts to be PRE elements, you'll want to lobby the HTML Working Group. Note that what you are requesting is the codification of an implicit behavior, currently obtained by explicit means, the PRE tag. Given that HTML tightly adheres to an explicit ontology I would suggest that you may have some work ahead of you.

There's a friend of mine that used to be on one of the W3C committees lurking here. Perhaps he'll chime in...

As an alternative, you might lobby for the phpBB folks to modify the software so as to force all fixed point content to always be bracketed with the PRE tag. The CODE metatag does something like this, selecting both a fixed point representation and adding the pre-formatted markup.

GregLee 10-22-2011 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Paquette (Post 1123650)
If you wish to have all agents preserve input white space sequences when a fixed pitch font is selected, in effect declaring all uses of fixed pitch fonts to be PRE elements, ...

As I understand the proposal, for portions of text in a monospace font, not all white space would be preserved, only space characters, and word wrap would not be disabled.. We might ask ERD50 what he'd like to do about TAB characters.

Nords 10-23-2011 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah in SC (Post 1122897)
I have had a keen interest in the one space or two debate that winger referenced, as I learned to type on a typewriter (old fart) and thus put 2 spaces between sentences. The youngsters, okay anyone under 40, learned the 1 space that is the convention now. I'll never get the hang of it, I suspect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Achiever51 (Post 1122941)
:rofl::rofl::rofl: Bahahahahaha!
And put me down as another oldie who learned how to type on a MANUAL typewriter. I will never adjust to the one space after a period...muscle memory is permanently fused to add a double space on every device I use.

I think the good news is that we can type any content we want (I'm a two-space dinosaur too) and let the software worry about the formatting.

It's also probably safe now for me to throw out the spare Pica and Elite balls that go with my IBM Selectric...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TromboneAl (Post 1123260)
Now I'm worried that people on other forums are going to find out what we discuss all day, and make fun of us.

I'd rather get teased for shaving a space after a period!

ERD50 10-23-2011 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregLee (Post 1123667)
We might ask ERD50 what he'd like to do about TAB characters.

Now that's another can of worms!

I've always somewhat disliked tabs. The problem seems to be, unless the 'ruler' that was used when the tabs were generated is carried with the text, the output is an unknown. So I would not even want to use tabs in a post, unless it included the ruler (if that's the right term for the tab spacing thingee).

One of the links MP provided seems to agree with me:

Quote:

We strongly discourage using horizontal tabs in preformatted text since it is common practice, when editing, to set the tab-spacing to other values, leading to misaligned documents
.

If the original author set the tab to 12 spaces, how can the output know that? I think some text export functions convert the tabs to their equivalent spaces, so the original intent is preserved, but I'd need to test that.

-ERD50

Meadbh 10-23-2011 11:59 AM

Get a life, people!

:horse: :banghead: :2funny:

Sarah in SC 10-23-2011 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords

I think the good news is that we can type any content we want (I'm a two-space dinosaur too) and let the software worry about the formatting.

It's also probably safe now for me to throw out the spare Pica and Elite balls that go with my IBM Selectric...

I'd rather get teased for shaving a space after a period!

Yes it is safe to throw out your pica balls. And the elite balls, though I'd check
with DW first. :)

TromboneAl 10-23-2011 06:54 PM

Organism?

GregLee 10-23-2011 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kombat (Post 1123523)
... The forum administrators would do this by specifying particular CSS properties to override the browser default. ... The spacing you're asking for would probably look fine in your browser, on your computer, with your particular monitor resolution. But how would it look on an iPod? A Kindle? A PS3?

I ran across a reference which may have some relevance to these issues.. It is a description of two methods for using Knuth-Plass justification on the Kindle, and (I gather) could be used for some browsers.. From the article by Kevin Lynagh, Kindle typography:

https://www.dirigibleflightcraft.com/...ordspacing.png
Quote:

Figure 2: Knuth & Plass justified text, rendered by setting the CSS word-spacing property for each line. Note that the right margin is very slightly ragged; this is because WebKit ignores subpixel word-spacing values. Text from The Frog Prince, by the Brothers Grimm.
I suppose you'll be wondering what justification has to do with spacing between sentences.. Here is the relevance.. Knuth describes text as boxes (letters, words, and so on) stuck together with glue (white space) with associated penalties.. At the end of the sentence, the glue can be stretched out more, with a lower penalty, than the glue between words, with the consequence that, typically, the glue (white space) between sentences will come out wider than the glue between words.. This will be true even if paragraphs are not fully right justified.. So, if you can justify using Knuth-Plass, you can also turn off full justification if you want, but still get extra space between sentences in most cases.

haha 10-23-2011 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadbh (Post 1123770)
Get a life, people!

:horse: :banghead: :2funny:

It must be that time sometimes weighs heavily.

ERD50 10-24-2011 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha (Post 1123916)
It must be that time sometimes weighs heavily.

To each their own, but if some people were not interested in what seem to others like obscure details, we wouldn't have things like the internet, web browsers, or automobiles (Henry, why are you wasting your time in the garage again with that smelly gasoline stuff?).

-ERD50

freebird5825 10-24-2011 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo (Post 1123280)
Grammar policeman and now space cop...

I love a good slow pitch...:coolsmiley:

https://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn....me%2f2hqr.jpg

courtesy : www.quickmeme.com

target2019 10-24-2011 03:49 PM

One space after a period. In the past, with IBM Selectric, etc., it was 2 spaces.

Have been editing and writing to many style guides over the past 40 years. I can't force you to type once space, and I can't force the browser to display multiple spaces either.

Actually had a professor last month who insisted we type 2 spaces in all papers.

GregLee 10-24-2011 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by target2019 (Post 1124094)
One space after a period. In the past, with IBM Selectric, etc., it was 2 spaces.

Have been editing and writing to many style guides over the past 40 years.

The IBM Selectric being relevant because it's a typewriter? Or because it has balls?

I don't understand why some people regard style guides as authoritative, except of course in case it's a condition of their jobs that they are required to conform to some style guide.. If a rule gets into a style guide, is there a reason for it, or is the author just making it up as he goes?. Maybe I am insufficiently respectful of authority.


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