Newbie needing advice

[UserRequested]

WADR jags, your post is a perceptive glimpse of the obvious. Sassy seems to be a pretty sharp cookie and would intuitively know all of that. Besides, all of what you say could be applied to equally to financial and investment advice unless all of us are qualified finance and investment pros. What we are doing is no different from what a friend might do for a friend going through a personal crisis.

From my experience on this site I haven't seen any inkling of the "not well intentioned" thing and if it did occur, I think other participants would jump on a poorly intentioned post real quick. Not many wallflowers around here.

Really? An internet " friend" she's known all of 45 posts and one who does not know her or her dear husband from a bar of soap.
Let's not get a disproportionate sense of one's own importance here.
OP's been through he'll in the last few days/weeks/months. The last thing she needs is an Internet Dr.Phil /Oprah giving relationship advice

 

[REWahoo]

But...giving advice on everything from what type of investments you should make, what brand of soap you should use and how to deal with a misbehaving spouse is what we do here.

Would you have us shut the board down entirely?

From the Community Rules:

Do your own due diligence!
People who are professionals in a variety of fields post on this forum and share their general knowledge. Many of them are brilliant. Some are doofi.
Information obtained from professionals (or from anyone for that matter) who are participants in this forum should be not be relied on when making important life decisions.

 

[Milton]

While I agree with jags that professional and fully-informed advice is called for, I also agree with pb4uski's retort. The source of advice and support need not be 'either / or'.

[T]he ball game has definitely changed ... he is removed from any decision that involves a $.

Assuming that you wish to stay married - a choice that only you will be able to make - I suggest that all major financial decisions will need to be made jointly. Cutting your husband entirely out of such decisions would be no different than him cutting you out ... and you know how that has made you feel.

If upon due reflection you feel that you are no longer able to accept your husband as an equal partner, IMO you'd be better off divorcing rather than switching to a pretend marriage in which you and he assume the role of parent and child, respectively.

I will be going back to work

That makes sense, regardless of how this relationship crisis resolves.

 

[pb4uski]

Really? An internet " friend" she's known all of 45 posts and one who does not know her or her dear husband from a bar of soap.
Let's not get a disproportionate sense of one's own importance here.
OP's been through he'll in the last few days/weeks/months. The last thing she needs is an Internet Dr.Phil /Oprah giving relationship advice

I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Any advice offered on this forum would have attributes of your posts - we're all adults and realize that awe need to take any and all advice with a grain of salt and make our own decisions.

 

[Milton]

Movie Recommendation

Lost in America (1985)

 

[Texas Proud]

Sassy...

A couple of suggestions.... take a look at the detail pages of cap gains on your tax return... this should have all the info to let you know if all losses were reported.... if you do not see the $600K in losses, something is up... have him get you the old stmts so you can see if you can do amended returns to get the losses recognized.... you only have days left for 2009 unless you extended... do not listen to "I can not get them".... all brokers will have them and you can get them....


I think you said you would, but make sure that there is not some money he is trying to hide... I am not saying this is the case, but I have heard of a spouse hiding money in anticipation of a divorce.... you are talking about $600K.... so it is not a small sum... if you do see the amount on the tax returns, then he might not be.... but if there is nothing... I would be suspicious...

I would also put him on a strict budget right now... no spending for anything until you get your finances under control, meaning you know WHAT you have and WHERE it is located...

Do take the advice of counseling.... you will get advice from all your friends and relatives about what to do... and they will be swayed by if they like him or not... if they did not like him, they will tell you you need to leave him... however, you are the one that needs to make this decision based on what you can live with and what you cannot.... but now is not the time to make it... you are going through the stages... and it does take time...

 

[Bestwifeever]

Wow, this was a fast moving thread, like a movie!

Did you really lose $600k of money you had put into the nonretirement account or was that the paper value at the peak (the loss might be more palatable if you consider only the real dollars that went into it).

Oddly perhaps, I suggest your DH have an account of his own from this point forward of maybe 5 percent of the total that he can invest or lose however he likes, once things shake out. I don't get much of an "our" vibe from the OP, to be honest, and I sort of feel sorry for the guy. There's not a lot of "we" in this very fast decision-making, for example:

Well, he finally fessed up tonight. Turns out he lost everything in the 2008 crash because he was highly leveraged. He had dabbled with that a bit in his 20s then we agreed jointly that it wasn't good to do anymore, but he started back up. So, I guess you can see he's a bit like a gambler with an addiction. Anyway, he's been hiding it for 5 years, making up numbers, telling me lies, hoping to make it back. So, yes, I'm out probably about $600K and 15 years of squirreling away and living below my means, not to mention all the emotional crap that now comes with this. Fortunately, we had been putting things in cash for the last 5 years, so that is saved along with the retirement accounts. Things are not absolutely dire, but the ball game has definitely changed.

Here is my immediate plan:
1. He is to get a list of accounts/passwords everything with a $$amount on it to me and sit down with me and go through it so we know exactly where we stand.
2. Passwords will be changed and he is removed from any decision that involves a $.
3. I'm heading to my parents for advice on future investments and where I should be.

If you have anything to add for advice I should be doing for right now or down the road, throw it my way.

I will be going back to work but I need to figure out what to do. Being out of the workforce for 10 years and an English degree really aren't strengths. Really kicking myself on that liberal arts degree right now. Probably time for a new career, so I should add career counseling discussions to the list.

Thanks for all the input. You will probably be hearing more from me as I navigate this path with plenty of questions.

 

[gauss]

Sassy...

A couple of suggestions.... take a look at the detail pages of cap gains on your tax return... this should have all the info to let you know if all losses were reported.... if you do not see the $600K in losses, something is up... have him get you the old stmts so you can see if you can do amended returns to get the losses recognized.... you only have days left for 2009 unless you extended... do not listen to "I can not get them".... all brokers will have them and you can get them....

+1

If you have access to your 2011 Federal Tax return, I would do a couple of quick checks specifically as follows:

Form 1040 - Line 13 Capital gain or (loss). Should be -3,000 for every year since the losses were first recognized.


and even more importantly:

Schedule D
line 7 Net short-term capital gain or (loss). AND
line 15 Net long-term capital gain or (loss).

These should be two numbers that when combined should give a large negative number representing your total actual loss. Note that this might not be the full 600k if there was asset appreciation prior to the loss, but rather it should represent all of your contributions that were lost.

If you don't see these numbers here then that might be a warning sign that some of the other scenarios that Texas Proud alluded to might be increasingly likely.

If no Schedule D is present in the 2011 return then I would look for one in previous returns until you find a Schedule D that recognizes the loss as described above.

-gauss

 

[Texas Proud]

+1
/snip/

If no Schedule D is present in the 2011 return then I would look for one in previous returns until you find a Schedule D that recognizes the loss as described above.

-gauss

If there is not a sch D, then there is no $3K loss on the front AND no carry forward of the past losses... you cannot skip years...

 

[Sassy]

First off, folks, I appreciate all the comments. I've lurked on this board for years and have a pretty good judgement of who I consider level-headed and who doesn't necessarily jive with my goals/concerns. These are opinions that all of us can take and leave without any hard feelings. Don't turn this thread into a petty argument about what should/shouldn't be offered for advice. I'm completely capable of sifting through the info and taking what I need for advice and dumping the rest. So please stop the bickering and get back to helping ME.

Gauss/Texas Proud: I found the 2009 & 2010 tax returns. The -$3,000 loss is on there along with a big carry forward loss on Line 6 of Schedule D. That looks consistent and is accurate with what he told me last night when I asked him.

From what I can see, this is limited to this one taxable account. There is not a cc debt history problem and his cards are online with mine and I track them and pay the bills each month so nothing is out of sorts there. In fact, he hardly uses them. I also track the bank account and monthly expenses and he's basically kept with standard gas and maybe a few other charges here and there, but certainly not big amounts or to places that would raise red flags. So, all in all, this part seems ok, which is also in part why I trusted him with the investments.

Best Wife, the lost amount was the paper value and also the ballpark estimate of the 5 years lost in all this lying. Perhaps it would make it easier to go by the real dollar amount lost, which is still pretty significant, but seeing how I budgeted, planned, and made decisions based on the "imaginary" account, that's where I am mentally right now. I'm not ready to say "Well, it was ONLY $XXand not $XXX of that imaginary account."

Also, he is perfectly free to set up his own trading account if he wishes--though I'm entirely opposed to that, and he won't do it. He's entirely gun shy at this point and is willing to hand everything over to me to deal with. There is a lot of "our" in these decisions, it's simply not coming through on typing because I recognize that this is now my responsibility. But we've talked, are in agreement with how things need to be, and are proceeding. I still have the trust that our checking account is fine, based on his history with that, and the other accounts are. This is really boiling down to just one big stupid mistake that's changed everything and now we have to pick up the pieces and go on.

We talked this morning before he left for work and I know he is hurting, too. I know he is wondering if we are all better off if he isn't in the picture. I said no to that as I can't take anymore being sprung on me and I need stability for the kids. It's a rash idea with nothing good to come of it. I also said if he is feeling way down and having darker thoughts that he needs to get some help. I don't want him going down that road--and while I don't think he will--I told him that I can't deal with a suicidal person on top of all this. So, he needs to get his head in the game and get help if he needs it. I think he'll get his head in the game after he gets done beating himself up. The last thing I told him was, "Go on and kiss the kids goodbye (for the morning, which he does everyday before he leaves work) and make a vow to do what's right from here on out for them and this family." I need that commitment and he needs it too so that he feels he's once again moving in the right direction.

 

[REWahoo]

Sassy, sounds to me like you have a good handle on things and the right attitude to move forward. Hang in there.

 

[MichaelB]

I know someone who discovered something similar. They were able to reconcile, put it behind them, and start financial rebuilding, and a decade later, are in very good financial shape (and also have a strong relationship).

There are many who faced major setbacks and built their financial independence later in life. The proper key is attitude, and like REWahoo said, yours seems to be helping. Stay focused and good luck.

 

[Texas Proud]

Sassy...

One of the best comments I heard for someone to think about who wants to end their life...

"Suicide is a long term solution for a short term problem."


You have a short term problem that you will work out... right now nobody knows the outcome as it will play out over time... but taking drastic steps right now is not the way to go.... by you or him....

 

[NanoSour]

I wonder if you can recall your marriage vows and how they may apply to your current life situation. From my distant viewpoint, this is about money and a husband who is obviously sick. Addiction can be a very nasty decease, whether gambling or drugs, and I for one will be there for my spouse if, or when I ever find out she has one of these type sicknesses.

Pardon me for getting philosophical, but life's just a journey. There are summers and winters (clearly this is a winter situation). But this too shall pass. From what I gather from previous posts, he is a good provider; I assume he has decent/stable employment, a good father, and outside of his sickness, a loving husband.

Whenever I'm bothered by some problem in my life, I'm inevitably reminded that it's not like I was just told one of my children has terminal cancer and only has weeks/months to live. That always puts my problems in perspective.

I'm not a counselor or anything like that, but I do subscribe to the theorem that Love is not a feeling, but rather a decision to be loving to another individual. Your husband needs your Love now more than he may ever have before. I wish all the best for you and your family and I hope nothing I've written is offensive to anyone.

 

[Meadbh]

Your husband needs your Love now more than he may ever have before. I wish all the best for you and your family and I hope nothing I've written is offensive to anyone.

He may need love....but where was his love (and accountability) for the past five years, when Sassy needed it?

I agree with you that punishment is not the issue. Mercy would be more like it.

Accountability is good too.

 

[NanoSour]

He may need love....but where was his love (and accountability) for the past five years, when Sassy needed it?

I agree with you that punishment is not the issue. Mercy would be more like it.

Accountability is good too.

Can't disagree Mead. He clearly fell short on his part of the bargain.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Sassy, sounds to me like you have a good handle on things and the right attitude to move forward. Hang in there.

Yes, I think so too. Our mantra has always been "it's 'only' money" and fortunately for us and hopefully for the Sassy family there will be enough to offset this loss. Mr Sassy is probably relieved to have this finally in the open and the task of managing the mistake off his shoulders, so I hope the two of you can take a deep breath and move on together. Sassy, you said so many complimentary things abour Mr S early in this thread and he probably needs to hear them from you more than ever as he is still that person.

I pointed out the paper and projected vs the actual value of what went into the account just for perspective, not that you should feel better about it (but it would make me feel a little better, honestly--nobody's paper gains have been guaranteed in the volatile climate of the past five years).

I know many here might agree that while this is hard on you and a shock, it is not near the top ten of the worst things that could happen. Hang in there.

 

[FinanceDude]

Ok, so we can agree that OP's husband committed "financial adultery", but is that the same as REAL adultery? Some on here are like sharks circling. If Sassy's husband would have continued to lie about the finances, etc, it would be another matter.

He has come clean and told her everything. Maybe he was embarassed about it, and thought the market would bail him out, I am not sure. But Sassy says he is a good husband and a good provider. I am not sure divorce will solve all her problems, he seems open to getting counseling as there is still an underlying lack of trust issue, as it seems.

I for one am not going to judge, as I have not walked a mile in Sassy or her husbands shoes........

 

[Letj]

I saw tax returns and they had minimum losses (around $3,000). He says there's a certain amount you can deduct each year that we have a huge tax loss to carry forward. I had the tax accountant do taxes for 4 of those years because we were overseas, but he did them this year. And now that brings up another realization--that's another thing I need to take control over and remove from him. F&&ck anyway. Sorry.

And, yes, I am in shock, which explains why I'm so calm. I'll probably blow up in a couple of days when the magnitude of this hits home. I assume this is a bit like grieving a death and there are 5 or so stages to go through.

I don't have an answer for the marriage because mentally I'm just not ready to think about it. My first priority is my kids and getting on my feet so I'm independent. Can we stay married? Perhaps, I'm sure others have gone through worse and survived. Will we? I really don't know. I can't imagine breaking up the family, but I can't live like this either. I realize the ball is entirely in my court. He's said he'll do whatever I want, including granting a divorce and alimony or stay together for the sake of the kids w/o the "marriage" bit or marriage counseling. I don't know. I'm just not at any stage to discuss it yet and would rather plug the holes in the ship before I look at +/- of selling it off or keeping it.

All I know is that a lot of tears have been shed tonight from both of us and we will probably have more days like this. He has been willing to answer my questions--it's a matter of whether or not I believe him and is this over yet?? Or will I be blindsided with something else I have that feeling where I don't know if I'm going to get hit with a bat again or if it's over.

And we are far from the hugging stage, pb4uski, and I'm not thanking him for his courage. I feel that I've been pretty fair and civilized so far--though that may change as this sinks in more--I haven't verbally beaten him up but I have made my feelings/fears/concerns clear. And there has been a lot of why? how could you let it go this far? etc? etc? He is doing a good job beating himself up. He told me one of the things he considered to get out of it was buying a big insurance policy and killing himself. I don't know how much thought he gave to that or if it was a go-easy-on-me ploy. I told him 1. that wouldn't work because insurance companies have timeframes from issuance to death and it would invalidate it and 2. Don't even think about leaving me with more emotional $hit and baggage for two young kids to carry their entire lives. Maybe my response comes off harsh, but that's where I was at the moment. I think he is over that hurdle and has realized he wants to be here to see the kids grow up.

My god, how a day changes a life. Wish these were somebody else's shoes I was wearing.

I have been with my husband for 27 years and like you have young children. Not telling you what to do but I would not divorce an otherwise good man over this. People make mistake and those of us who've lived long enough know that something unpleasant is bound to happen but there's redemption, survival and forgiveness. Sometimes marriage get even stronger after something like this happens. Don't take his threat of suicide lightly. He feels bad and knows he's let down his family. Both of you need support right now. I wouldn't push him too hard; believe me, he feels bad enough especially considering that's he's been an upstanding husband except for this.

 

[Letj]

Sassy,

Would you feel better if your husband took the $600k and started a business and it went belly-up? I know this is somewhat different but you are still young and this is a temporary set back. You and your husband can definitely come back from this.

 

[FinanceDude]

i have been with my husband for 27 years and like you have young children. Not telling you what to do but i would not divorce an otherwise good man over this. People make mistake and those of us who've lived long enough know that something unpleasant is bound to happen but there's redemption, survival and forgiveness. Sometimes marriage get even stronger after something like this happens. Don't take his threat of suicide lightly. He feels bad and knows he's let down his family. Both of you need support right now. I wouldn't push him too hard; believe me, he feels bad enough especially considering that's he's been an upstanding husband except for this.

+1000000000000

 

[Texas Proud]

Ok, so we can agree that OP's husband committed "financial adultery", but is that the same as REAL adultery? Some on here are like sharks circling. If Sassy's husband would have continued to lie about the finances, etc, it would be another matter.

He has come clean and told her everything. Maybe he was embarassed about it, and thought the market would bail him out, I am not sure. But Sassy says he is a good husband and a good provider. I am not sure divorce will solve all her problems, he seems open to getting counseling as there is still an underlying lack of trust issue, as it seems.

I for one am not going to judge, as I have not walked a mile in Sassy or her husbands shoes........

I agree on your post in part... but disagree on part...

How could he think that the market would bail him out if he lost everything He had nothing left to grow... also, you would think that Ms. Sassy would wonder why they could not retire if she sees the market going up and she does a back of the envelope calc and think they have $1.5 mill or more... and he maybe had brought things back to $250K.... (still, if everything is gone I do not see how he could even do this)...


I also think there is a difference in something bad happening and spouse fessing up to it in a reasonable time and a spouse hiding it for 5 years... and only fessing up when pushed to prove a point... remember, she said that he kept telling her things were OK and that she just did not understand.... kind of putting her down IMO (she might feel different)...

I do agree that if everything else were going great... and Ms Sassy can let it go over time... it probably is not a deal breaker... but many people get divorced when one of them ruins the finances of both of them... say one is running a business and goes into BK... taking the other in for the ride...

 

[Gatordoc50]

Sounds like you received the horrors of the market collapse in just a few days. That had to be shocking. Using leverage was a mistake on the way down but could have been tremendous on the way up. Either way, not prudent in my opinion. Try for a moment to put yourself in his shoes during the collapse that took many months and the mental turmoil that he shouldered by himself. You were unaware, meaning he didn't let the stress effect his relationship with you or your children. You should kiss the poor bastard. After taking control of the finances, of course.

 

[Meadbh]

I apologize for coming across as judgmental, but this really shocked me. Sassy, I hope you can get the ship back on course financially and personally. You will have to be the leader and CEO of your family from now on.

I am truly glad to be single......

 

[Sassy]

Letj,

I understand what you're saying about the relationship. Yes, I'm looking at this quite differently than I would have if I was in my 20s and a DINK. But now I have little lives to think about as well as reflecting on our married years together, what I want, and where I want to be in the future, and who's in it with me. I always reminded myself during the typical rough patches in the marriage that in the end I wanted him sitting next to me at our daughter's wedding and we worked things out. But, you know, right now I'm just really tired of that reminder.

Texas Proud,
You are quite right. The idea of recouping losses was just absurd and irrational. I just can not comprehend how he thinks he was going to do that. And, yes, fessing up earlier would have been much easier. I factored in our "imaginary" account in many things based on our supposedly financial health...most significantly our house purchased last year and vehicles during those 5 years. And simply put, had I known all this back then, I would have cut back on some budget things so that we could re-establish and get our feet under us quicker. I just can't believe he played along in so many major decisions we had to make and acted like nothing was wrong. I simply can not wrap my head around it.

And for those who say it's only money. It's not. It's the emotions that go with it, the sacrifices made for it, the dream possibilities, the flexibility it offers, the opportunities it creates, the worse-case fears of having something wiped out, and a multitude of other emotions. I've never believed in the "it's only money" saying. It is so much more than a piece of printed paper.

Gator, I was there during it, standing by him and asking how things were. I was told everything went down but we were ok. Keep in mind, over the course of this, he also showed me comparisons of us v. stock funds, net worth, % increases, etc. I just never saw the actual online account, but I always had numbers in front of me and graphs, etc. It's like I had my own personal Bernie Madoff, with the exception that he didn't run off with everything and it's hidden safely away somewhere.