Aging parents - What to do?

Thanks again one and all. My Dad won't go anywhere,
even for a free meal. He will not even go out to
family gatherings any more. They (Mom and Dad)
have given me info (verbally) about what they want
and don't want, where the keys are to everything,
various records, who should get what "stuff" etc.
That's about it.

Re. the Zipper and Cut-Throat remarks, yes I can see the
irony also, except my father is just stubborn and
hassle averse, whereas I truly believe I am smarter
than just about everyone else. This is a critical difference
In my case, galloping egomania, in his just old age
and intransigence.

A brief segue into Zipper's earlier comment about
my "Ayn Rand crap" coming home to roost. I saw on
the nightly news quite a few "blue state" folks are
moving to Canada or at least considering it. I am happy
to see them go and hope they are happy with their new homes. Here is the key for Zipper and others who
like to point out the People's Repuiblic of Canada advantages in health care
and social services. For someone with my politics,
living in Canada would be unthinkable. Bottom line:
in spite of the terrible tumult and trouble which may lie ahead, I would rather deal with it myself right here than live
under a government like Canada's. Sometimes I can barely stand it here. Canada would be impossible. Why, the gun laws alone would rule it out for me.

JG

under a government like Canada's. Sometimes I can barely stand it here. Canada would be impossible. Why, the gun laws alone would rule it out for me.

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But the fishing alone would be worth it! I caught my Biggest Steelhead in British Columbia!

I don't hunt anymore, but there are more animals running around in Canada than anywhere else on the Planet!

Humm... Remember when we were kids and the parents didn't really want to talk about the birds and bees? They left interesting books where they know we would see and read them.

Consider the same approach. Go to a book store and see what you can find. Then 'accidentally' leave it behind when you visit.

Another approach is to defer to his life experiance, engage your Father in a discussion of your own estate (aka, end of life) planning. Show him what you are considering and why. You can easily do that because you want him to know what arrangements you have made just in case the unexpected happens. This is where you can introduce the book, ask him if there are details in the book you may have overlooked. One clause that will light up their face is a provision that if you and your kids are killed in a common disaster that a trust is formed to provide for the parents.

I've tried leaving reading material behind. However,
discussing my own planning is a really good idea.
It may not move them to action, but it can't hurt
and is non-threatening as we are talking about what
I've done and not what they should do. The timing
for this good also as I am going in next week to have
a real attorney work on my will/trust stuff. I've been
doing my own will for years but I keep discovering things
that aren't adequately covered. My spouse is pushing this and I agree with her that I should spend some
money and get it right.

Thanks for the idea Brat.

JG

Perhaps you have seen the new redrawn North American map John.
It was a cartoon showing the "blue states" and Canada as The United States of Canada.

The red states are called "Jesus Land".

Hi Zipper! Had not seen the "redistricting".
Works for me

JG

To the poster who asked about the state that sued a child to support a parent: Oregon, about 20 years ago. I had a manager who was (forgive my Yiddish) a "handler". He complained that the State sued him for support of his mother who was on welfare and would not consider his church tithe as an "expense". The good Christians we are/were told him that charity began at home- no sympathy there.

What may have happened is that the mother & son tried a do-it-yourself Medicaid two-step (my boss was not the most forthcomming). OTOH the State may have concluded that the son had plenty of income and that the taxpayers should not let him neglect his mother.

In either case, it is a good example of the fact that an Elder Law Attorney's advise is valuable.

To the poster who asked about the state that sued a child to support a parent: Oregon

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Thank you.

In either case, it is a good example of the fact that an Elder Law Attorney's advise is valuable.

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Sounds like good advice. Medical costs today can quickly drive almost anyone into bankruptcy.

Even if you can't get your parents to want to meet with a lawyer, I was glad I contacted one who specialized in elder care by myself. Then, when there was a crisis, and I needed to get durable power of atty, I called the lawyer and between the two of us persuaded my mother to sign it. Then you're not showing up out of the blue looking like some child looking to get your hands on their money.

I think there comes a point when you just have to take over certain things because they need the help. You can't always get agreement, but if it is the right thing to do, you have to judge which is more important: not to offend or to fix a problem.

The whole situation has been an incentive to me to get all my affairs in order. I'm just about to do the last piece - getting a POA - I can understand the discomfort of letting go. I just keep telling myself, I picked the person because I trusted her, so there is no need to fear. Actually, since it isn't family, I think it is easier (I sympathize with all the people who have siblings to deal with).

As I posted previously, I think I will have to wait for a crisis before getting a POA, or taking similar steps.
I am "somewhat" educated by my previous
consultations, etc. Hopefully my estranged brother
will not be a problem. He can be a PITA but I still
love him.

As far as getting my affairs in order, in 2 days I am
rewriting my will for the umpteenth time. I am doing it mainly to make my spouse as secure as possible and
to avoid hassle for my children. Can't afford to spend a
lot so it will be a test for the attorney I've selected.
Beyond that, doubt I will get a lot more organized than
I am. It was my New Year's resolution for 20 years
and I never got it done.

JG

Was catching up on my reading.. came across an article in Forbes that discussed many of the issues mentioned in this thread. The subject was trusts in estate planning. The pub was less than 30 days old. Highly recommended.

C'mon, Brat, quit teasing & give us a clue.

Was catching up on my reading.. came across an article in Forbes that discussed many of the issues mentioned in this thread.  The subject was trusts in estate planning.  The pub was less than 30 days old.  Highly recommended.

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If it's so highly recommended, then how 'bout an article title or an author or the date of the issue. There's plenty on Forbes' website and it's not that easy to separate the wheat from the chaff...

As  far as getting my affairs in order, in 2 days I am
rewriting my will for the umpteenth time.  I am doing it mainly to make my spouse as secure as possible and
to avoid hassle for my children.  Can't afford to spend a
lot so it will be a test for the attorney I've selected.
Beyond that, doubt I will get a lot more organized than
I am.   It was my New Year's resolution for 20 years
and I never got it done.  

JG

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Ok John,
Maybe you can't change the situation for your parents but you CAN change yours. I think it sucks to know you will be putting people you love through great difficulty at a time in their lives that is already painful. Everything should be spelled out and also should be talked about before the fact. Remember no one knows how they are going to go or when. If you're lucky you'll be hit by a bus and within minutes be walking thru the Pearly Gates (oh yeah, this is JG, well some kind of gates ) but that doesn't happen often. Your family needs to know your wishes. Get a durable POA when update your will. And then after the first of the year, talk to all your children and your wife.

Also, if you're a paper pack rat(my Mom had receipts going back years for things like utility bills) clear out the crap.

Judy

Forbes article

OK gang here is where I found the article: Forbes 2005 Investment Guide. It has no pub date but it does say in fine print on the bottom right $4.99, "Display until March 14, 2005". Starting on page 230 in the section Taxes & Estates is an article "Trust, But Verify".

The section headings are:
Talk to your kids-and parents
Watch those living trusts
Pick your trustee carefully
Include a removal clause
Comparison shop
Require mediation

Because this is a current article Forbes may charge a couple dollars to read it off their website. If you are really thrifty, it may be available at your local library.

Thanks, Brat. Here it is online; Forbes' annoying "free" registration is required but it doesn't cost money.

http://www.forbes.com/investmentguide/forbes/2004/1213/230.html

This is for Judy and anyone else who is interested.
Yes, I am a paper pack rat. Have been for decades.
And, I do not want to put my spouse or children
through any unnecessary angst upon my demise.
However, it is a big project to get everything squared
away, for 2 reasons. (1) I have neglected it for years
and (2) I am lazy and would rather do other stuff.
I am hopeful that a clever attorney can draft something
which will grease the process for those left behind
and, at the same time, save me from having to
organize all that stuff in the twilight of my years.

JG

save me from having to organize all that stuff in the twilight of my years

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Save money ask the attorney you choose for a list of the information s/he will need to prepare your documents which should include at least:
checking and investment accounts - their value on some convenient date. Make a copy of the survivor info on these accounts;
realestate - names on titles and how held;
life insurance - amounts , type and ben. info;
any personal property of value (jewlery, boat, car).

If you are employed make a copy of the survivor info on your 401(k) or similar account.

If you are retired and receiving a pension make a copy of it's survivor's provisions.

Others should add to this list...

Others should add to this list...

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Here's a synopsis of a letter of instruction we prepared for our kids. We update it annually:

LETTER OF INSTRUCTION IN THE EVENT OF OUR DEATHS OR INCAPACITATION - UPDATED JANUARY 2004

-- Make sure that the medical insurance premium is paid. Currently we have the premium withdrawn automatically from our checking account. Here is all the info you'll need to locate this checking account: _____ . It is crucial that you either make new arrangements, or make sure there is enough in the account. The withdrawal occurs on the first day of each month in the amount of $ _____ . This is our health insurance and contact information: _____ . The benefits booklet is located here: ______ .

-- Our wills are located here : ____ .

-- Life insurance for both of us is in place in the amount of $ _____ each. The policy is located here: _____ .

-- Pension information, name, address, phone, and details

-- We have assets in various taxable & retirement accounts and investments. All of our assets are detailed in Quicken which is on the computer next to the bed and is updated monthly. Check this to get a complete list of our assets as well as names and addresses, etc. Someone who understands Quicken and computers should check this. Backups are located here: ______ . As of 12/31/03 our assets totaled about $ _____ . Paper statements are located here: ______ .

-- We have nursing home insurance. We paid a one time payment for nursing home coverage for both of us. The benefits include ____ . The policy is located ____ . All contact information is included with the policy.

-- We own the house free and clear. The Abstract and deed are located here ____ . You will need to pay the property taxes and house insurance. Insurance is with _____ . The policy is located here: ______ . Here is all contact information: _______. The premium is due each July 10 and must be paid. Property taxes are due before 10/1 and 4/1.

-- We have no other debts whatsoever other than just regular monthly bills and possibly a few medical bills that we are waiting to hear from on the insurance. Our regular monthly bills include: ______ .

-- ____ is in college and we have agreed to pay $ ______ . Take that from our assets and apply it to her college bills. Divide the rest according to the will.

-- All of our social security cards and numbers are in a manila envelope entitled "Social Security Cards" in the fire-proof box located here ____ .

-- We do NOT have a safe deposit box. Everything you need is in the house.

-- All of our mail is delivered to our home. There is no post office box.

-- All of our birth and baptismal certificates are in the fire-proof file box located here: _____ .

-- We have the following credit and debit cards: _____ . All credit cards are in my billfold or Mom's billfold in her purse. We have NO credit card annual fees. We do NOT carry a balance. We pay off each month. The credit card bill is located here: _____ . (include pay-off instructions).

-- No one owes any debts to us except medical insurance may owe us some medical things. We keep a log of anything they owe to us and it is kept here: ______.

-- We have two cars, a 1994 ______ and a 2000 ______. Legal papers (titles, etc.) in regard to those cars are in the firebox located here: ______ . Registrations are in the glove compartments of each car. No money is owed on either car.

-- Our income tax returns from all past years are located here: ______ .

-- All personal property that we own is either in the house or garage or on our property. There are negatives of some of the ancestors' photographs located here: _______ . We will want those to be passed down from generation to generation, so we'd appreciate it if you'd give them to whichever of our kids is most likely to take an interest in that.

-- We have no cemetery plots or funeral arrangements, so I guess you will need to take care of that. Keep it very, very simple and cheap. You can get cheap caskets at the monastery located here: _______ . We'd prefer you not spend much on a funeral. We'd rather you use the money to make your lives easier.

-- We have car and house insurance with _______ . All documents are located here: _____ . Here is contact information: ____ The premiums are due in August 25 each year.

-- Receipts, manuals and warranties for all the stuff we own (computers, appliances, etc.) are located here: ____ (for what its worth).

-- We do not have private disability insurance.

-- Car maintenance records & car owners manuals are located here: _____________ .

-- All of the keys that we use are either on my key chain or on Mom's key chain in her purse. My key chain is either with me or here: _______ . On my key chain is a key to (car1), a key to (car2), one key for the back door of the house, and a key to the garage. Mom has the same keys on her key chain that I have.

-- Apply for a one-time Social Security death benefit (this is a few hundred dollars). You can make arrangements for it through the funeral director and have it applied directly to his bill.

-- Mom's sister, ____ would be the first to contact in her family. She will contact others. Her contact information: _____

-- My parents will contact others on my side, and will come and help you with whatever you need.

All excellent advice. My wife and I have been dealing with these issues with her dad and mom. Issues of control, dementia, finances POA agreements and dealing with bills and assets and NH placement.
With all the above, the worst of it was my wifes brother who lives 7 hours away. NO HELP- NO GOING OUT OF HIS WAY< yet when the house was sold after we did all the cleaning, repairs ect, ect. He was on the phone wanting to know "How much am I going to get and when, send me the papers"
I have learned alot, and I will deal with my sister in a different way. Siblings can be wonderful or a problem

Please don't misunderstand. I love my parents and even my dopey brother. But, the more people that are
involved the more messy things get. For example, my
parents have talked as if they will both go at the same time. Not likely. It will be much easier for me to deal with one of them than both, no matter who dies or
becomes incapacitated first. As for my brother, he can just stay home, or if we get lucky a crisis might bring us closer. Either way (with him involved or not) I will
handle it and he will get what's coming to him
If I was guessing, I expect he will be more of a problem than working on this with my folks, and that's saying
a lot. So far, he has been willing to stay on the sidelines
and let me deal with whatever comes up.

JG

For example, my
parents have talked as if they will both go at the same time. Not likely. It will be much easier for me to deal with one of them than both, no matter who dies or
becomes incapacitated first.

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That is certainly my wife's and I's dream. But you're right that it is unlikely. But if you think about it it would be much easier if they did go at the same time. Less people to argue with you.

I am sitting in my hotel room in La Crosse Wisconsin right now. Where exactly did you say we are wrestling tomorrow?

Well JG, it's tough but all things will eventually be worked out, one way or the other. We have a saying in my line of business: All bleeding stops eventually.

Bob Smith, I've said it before, you are my hero! Things would have been so much easier had my parents done this. Can I use you format?

Judy

Judy, what a nice thing to say! Thank you! I hope you find it useful. I can recall reading several books years ago that had various lists of things to be included in a letter of instruction. I pulled the things that applied to our situation and added a few that were based on experiences we had with my wife's parents' deaths.

Hey Cut-Throat. It's like this...............First I had to
find the mud (you said BYOM, right?) Anyway, once I loaded my big manly Dodge Ram pick up full to the brim,
all 4 tires went flat. I called the LaCrosse Civic Center
(they weren't happy)
and am hopeful that everyone can get a refund on their
tickets. I have not given up though. It's a great idea
and maybe we could make it an annual event.

Best,

John

Bob Smith, I've said it before, you are my hero!  Things would have been so much easier had my parents done this.  Can I use you format?

Judy

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Bob,
Second the nominaton. I just reviewed the letter of instruction and was blown away by how you got the bases covered.
Just read an article in new Inc about a guy who died 51 after diagnosis of terminal cancer when 49. His wife still got a bunch of surprises because she did not where to find all the parts of his business activities.
One comment she made, we all might want to include is direction where to find the passwords to our computer and files. This wife said it took her some time to get the right ones guessed-- a lot of what she needed was in the laptop.
Thanks again for sharing.
nwsteve