The Electric Vehicle Thread

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Chuckanut said:
GM has jumped on the Tesla charger bandwagon.

Mr. Musk’s decision to build a first class charging network strikes again. More money for the world’s richest man. Cha-Ching!
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Yeah already posted above.

Tesla supercharger stations were a loss for a while - I hope that has turned around already.
 
Well if one company dominates the charging network, that may not be so good for consumers.
 
audreyh1 said:
There are going to be lots of factors for a while - availability, number of chargers at a given location, reliability, how much power can be provided (speed of charging), location.

For a Tesla car, the car navigation shows you the rate and occupancy and availability at each charger in real-time on the map. Easy to view. The app shows you the same for nearby chargers. For a non-Tesla car they need the Tesla app to charge their car anyway so I assume they see the same Tesla charger information.

That type of information is quite limited for non-Tesla chargers. These days users use third party apps like PlugShare.com which rely on customer reports, so not in real time and maybe missing rates, but it’s a good way to find out about alternate chargers in an area and get some idea of their state. I don’t know whether Chargepoint or Electrify America show this type of information in an app - or availability status.
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Thanks. My son had told me a little about the app, but I had forgotten. Knowing the price at each location would be very handy.
 
explanade said:
Well if one company dominates the charging network, that may not be so good for consumers.
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Except that the one dominating the charging network also wants to sell cars, ha ha.

Tesla has said they aren’t going to charge other cars more.

And most EVs only use the charging network on longer road trips. They can deal directly with their electricity provider at home.
 
Koolau said:
Thanks. My son had told me a little about the app, but I had forgotten. Knowing the price at each location would be very handy.
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Honestly at this point just knowing the locations is what matters so you can plan your trip. There aren’t enough for price comparison. And in a given region they are going to be similar because it often depends on the local electricity provider, not the hosting retailer or facility depending on the state.
 
Texas Proud said:
Interesting... if it now becoming the standard I do not see that Tesla can be the only one with charging ports for Tesla (not sure if they were anyhow).... but I can see all the others using Tesla connectors as it will now be the standard... so price of charging will now be part of the equation of where to stop... like the cost of a gallon of gas...
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For most people that charge at home regularly and only charge at public stations on occasional road trips, I suspect location convenience would trump price-hunting...

explanade said:
Well if one company dominates the charging network, that may not be so good for consumers.
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Tesla opened up the connector awhile back and made it an open standard that anyone can use. Although this move may have some not-so-obvious benefits for Tesla, there are many obvious benefits for other manufacturers and their customers. Others can now use the connector in their own charging network as well. This is a generous move by Tesla and I don't see why anyone would spin it negatively.


Koolau said:
Speaking of price to charge, are the prices for charging listed on the netw*rks that you can access by phone/app showing where charging stations are located? Such info would give you some flexibility about where you buy your electricity, assuming you're not just about "out."
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In a Tesla, you see live charger availability and pricing, along with max power, tiered pricing, historical business, any outages, and amenities. Below is what an older version of the Supercharger Pop-up looks like on the car's display. I'm on FSD, so I'm always on an older version of the FW base. My dad is not on FSD so has more up-to-date FW base and he tells me he sees photos of the Supercharger site in his car.
 

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ken830 said:
I don't think anyone, EV owner or not, will tell you to just "do this or that" or "use this adapter." No one likes adapters especially not for such large connectors carrying so much power. Problem with NACS is that it can never be the world standard because in Europe (and other parts of the world?) residential "Level 2" charging requires 3 phase and the Tesla connector only has 2 conductors for power.
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Is that a requirement for commercial chargers?

In Europe a Level 2 home charger can use both 230VAC single-phase & 400VAC 3-phase if the latter is available at the residence.
 
ken830 said:
For most people that charge at home regularly and only charge at public stations on occasional road trips, I suspect location convenience would trump price-hunting...



Tesla opened up the connector awhile back and made it an open standard that anyone can use. Although this move may have some not-so-obvious benefits for Tesla, there are many obvious benefits for other manufacturers and their customers. Others can now use the connector in their own charging network as well. This is a generous move by Tesla and I don't see why anyone would spin it negatively.




In a Tesla, you see live charger availability and pricing, along with max power, tiered pricing, historical business, any outages, and amenities. Below is what an older version of the Supercharger Pop-up looks like on the car's display. I'm on FSD, so I'm always on an older version of the FW base. My dad is not on FSD so has more up-to-date FW base and he tells me he sees photos of the Supercharger site in his car.
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That is just so cool. Someday, I've got to get "connected."

I need to spend more time in my son's Mod 3. I can tell he's pretty proud of it. Last we talked about it, he had 72K on it. Heh, heh, his car has been further than most as it's been sent to Hawaii (Island) and back to (I think) Long beach. He then did a slow trip back to the midwest (back home for him) but brought his SO and baby (for us to spoil.)
 
ncbill said:
Is that a requirement for commercial chargers?

In Europe a Level 2 home charger can use both 230VAC single-phase & 400VAC 3-phase if the latter is available at the residence.
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Sorry if I was unclear. I didn't intend to use the word, "require," in reference to some sort of regulation. I have no idea what regulation, if any, requires but I assume there are some limitations on single-phase charging that pushed EVs to support 3-phase charging. I simply meant that the connector would need to support 3-phases -- if only because it's expected by consumers and would probably be less competitive without that capability.
 
My electric panel in the garage is full. No more room for another circuit.

Has anybody had a switch installed that allows power to be switched from a 240v electric dryer outlet to an EV power power supply in the garage? That would be my only option other than getting a new panel put in. Since my dryer runs maybe 5 hours a week, and never at night, it would make sense for me to be able to switch the power from the dryer to the EV charging unit.
 
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Chuckanut said:
My electric panel in the garage is full. No more room for another circuit.

Has anybody had a switch installed that allows power to be switched from a 240v electric dryer outlet to an EV power power supply in the garage? That would be my only option other than getting a new panel put in. Since my dryer runs maybe 5 hours a week, and never at night, it would make sense for me to be able to switch the power from the dryer to the EV charging unit.
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They make them: https://www.amazon.com/Splitvolt-Amp-Splitter-Switch-Thousands/dp/B0B5FCHDBX

But I don't have any experience with them.
 
The problem with something like that is that the dryer outlet was not designed for continuous load and might have issues with components melting. If in addition you are running a long wire to the garage that would further complicated issues.
 
joesxm3 said:
The problem with something like that is that the dryer outlet was not designed for continuous load and might have issues with components melting. If in addition you are running a long wire to the garage that would further complicated issues.
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Not sure what you mean... I think all outlets are rated for continuous load (80% of peak) and peak loads. So, for example, a NEMA14-50 on a 50A breaker/circuit will be 50A peak and 40A continuous.

Tesla vehicles also monitor voltage sag and the car will determine if there is high impedance on the wall/wiring side and reduce power draw or stop charging completely.
 
ken830 said:
Not sure what you mean... I think all outlets are rated for continuous load (80% of peak) and peak loads. So, for example, a NEMA14-50 on a 50A breaker/circuit will be 50A peak and 40A continuous.

Tesla vehicles also monitor voltage sag and the car will determine if there is high impedance on the wall/wiring side and reduce power draw or stop charging completely.
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Ken, there's book stuff and real world stuff. You should dig into this a little. The problem with ratings is that it doesn't factor in installer issues like making too long of a run, or perhaps not torquing a screw correctly.

There's lots of info on the problem of continuous loads out there, and the resulting aftermath.

When I get my EV, I'm going to have my charging outlet over-engineered.
 
I don't have the energy to go into detail. It was heavily discussed in another thread.

Short story, after doing extensive investigation I decided to buy the Tesla Wall Connector and install it per building code. That meant a 60 amp circuit, 6 gauge THNN(?) Wire inside a metal conduit. To be safe, I configured the wall connector to be as if it were on a 40 amp circuit and I charge at 32 amps. I probably should charge higher since the circuit most likely can handle it, but I run a lot of AC and dehumidifier and never did the calculation of whether I might overload the 200 amp circuit coming into the house.

Sure it might be overly cautious but that is what experts like Sandy Mundo and Tesla recommend.
 
joesxm3 said:
The problem with something like that is that the dryer outlet was not designed for continuous load and might have issues with components melting. If in addition you are running a long wire to the garage that would further complicated issues.
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He was not proposing using his dryer outlet to charge an EV, he said he wanted to be able to use the same circuit for his dryer out with a switch to another outlet in the garage.

Most dryer outlets are 20A or 30A, so he would want to change that to 50A or 60A most likely (and charge at 32A or 40A for safety).
 
JoeWras said:
Ken, there's book stuff and real world stuff. You should dig into this a little. The problem with ratings is that it doesn't factor in installer issues like making too long of a run, or perhaps not torquing a screw correctly.

There's lots of info on the problem of continuous loads out there, and the resulting aftermath.

When I get my EV, I'm going to have my charging outlet over-engineered.
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Obviously, if something isn't done properly, it's going to be a problem, but why would that be the default assumption? Circuits & outlets are designed for continuous load at 80% of their peak load rating. That's the 20% safety factor. If you are going to just assume a fastener isn't torqued properly, you won't want to pull ANY power through any circuit.

For extra safety, a Tesla vehicle will monitor voltage and detect high impedance somewhere in the line. They introduced this in a FW update sometime in 2013, if my memory serves me, and it was so sensitive that it complained about my wiring a few times even though my wiring was done by me and my dad (licensed electrician) and the run is ~6 inches, since the outlet sits next to the breaker box. They've reduced the sensitivity since -- I don't see these warnings anymore for the last 8 or so years.
 
joesxm3 said:
Getting a light dose of the smoke from Canada today.

Glad my Model Y has a nice HEPA filter. If it gets really bad I can turn on "biowarfare defense mode" which also pressurizes the cabin to keep bad stuff out.

Getting used to Auto Pilot and very happy with it. Use it quite a bit of the time. I bought a month of FSD so I can stop at lights and stop signs, do auto lane change and do navigate on auto pilot which pretty much handles everything once you are on a limited access highway. Still waiting to be offered FSD Beta with auto steer on city streets. Have not had any firmware updates since before I ordered FSD on 6/1.
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My Model 3 just got an update to 2023.7.15 a few minutes ago so fingers crossed you'll get your FSD soon.
 
Koolau said:
BUT when he drove 1500 miles or so, it took 3 days instead of 2 directly because of charging. He pulled a very small sleeping trailer which caused more fuel stops. Half the time, he had to disconnect the trailer to be able to use a charging stall. The point being, long trips CAN be problematic and take longer due to fueling, depending upon the situation.
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Pulling a trailer with a EV makes a massive difference as it considerably reduces range because it destroys the airflow efficiency, not just the extra weight, as well as running into problems at many charging stations. You can’t take a 1500 mile trip pulling a trailer with a Tesla and equate it with a long road trip with no trailer. I know people do pull trailers, not common as they also know that it’s going to be challenging and have to plan accordingly.
 
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audreyh1 said:
Pulling a trailer with a EV makes a massive difference as it considerably reduces range because it destroys the airflow efficiency, not just the extra weight, as well as running into problems at many charging stations. You can’t take a 1500 mile trip pulling a trailer with a Tesla and equate it with a long road trip with no trailer. I know people do pull trailers, not common as they also know that it’s going to be challenging and have to plan accordingly.
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Actually there's no difference between ICE and EV in pulling a trailer regarding the energy requirements. Both are affected by wind resistance. It's just that an EV has a very efficient motor but a small energy supply. Stressing the motor drains the battery a lot faster. Stressing an inefficient ICE uses more fuel, but not proportionately since it's already operating inefficiently. But the big difference, time wise is in fueling. ICE is 5 minutes even with a trailer. EV can be significantly more - especially if the trailer must be detached.

If you want to talk "energy" used, the ICE uses WAY more energy than the EV.

It's not "good" or "bad", it's just different and should be recognized. My son knew going in that it would take extra time - and that's not worth owning an ICE just to make such trips. He might do that trip once every other year. For that, an ICE sitting outside would be foolish. IOW, he only wants an EV but he recognizes its different than an ICE.
 
EVs are particularly streamlined to minimize airflow resistance. ICE vehicles less so. Pulling a trailer disrupts that streamlined airflow.

But I also have to say driving 1500 miles in 2 days - wow! We are thankfully well past that kind of driving.
 
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audreyh1 said:
EVs are particularly streamlined to minimize airflow resistance. ICE vehicles less so. Pulling a trailer disrupts that streamlined airflow.

But I also have to say driving 1500 miles in 2 days - wow! We are thankfully well past that kind of driving.
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Heh, heh, thank goodness, so am I. I used to limit myself to 1000 miles per day. Now, it's more like 400. I did 1000 miles one day back when I was 65 and it wasn't too bad. Today, 11 years later, no way. I love getting old, but I hate being old.
 
Midpack said:
He was not proposing using his dryer outlet to charge an EV, he said he wanted to be able to use the same circuit for his dryer out with a switch to another outlet in the garage.

Most dryer outlets are 20A or 30A, so he would want to change that to 50A or 60A most likely (and charge at 32A or 40A for safety).
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I thought the point was not to have to pull new wire?

I'd like to do the same if possible on my 30A dryer circuit but would probably buy a much less expensive 16A max charger.

No worries about overload there even with charging overnight.
 
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