Release of final tax bill details

Must depend on the state. In TX, property taxes are billed in October, and you have until Jan 31 to pay without penalty. So you “pay ahead” simply by paying before Dec 31, or you bunch deductions by paying in Jan for prior year and Dec of current year. More like paying late for prior years taxes.

Is anyone really prepaying 2018 taxes?!?

I guess that I should clarify my earlier comment... our 2017 tax bill for our Florida condo isn't due until 03/31/2018.... but if you pay it early you get a discount of about 1% for each month paid early up to 4%... so being the cheapskate that I am I think of it as being due on 12/1/2017.

For our home, the 2017 real estate taxes are billed in August an due in November... no discount but a steep penalty if you don't pay.
 
I don't know if other states do this, but mine (New York) uses a lot of what you enter on your federal return as a starting point for your state return. This includes you main income sources on Form 1040/1040A/1040EZ and any itemized deductions you show on Schedule A. This means you can't itemize on your state return if you didn't itemize on your federal return. For me, it was always far more difficult to itemize on my state return for 2 reasons: (1) New York's standard deduction was always higher than the federal one, and starting a few years ago they began indexing it (finally!) so it would remain higher, and (2) you have to exclude your state income taxes, of course, from your federal return's "taxes you paid" amount. Taken together, I would have a far lower state itemized deduction to compare to a higher standard deduction.


But with the federal standard deduction rising to $12k, it will be higher than the state's standard deduction, making it quite possible that one could take the SD on the federal return while wanting to itemize on the state return, something now not permitted. The (NY) state legislature would have to change its tax law to remove this requirement, or else a taxpayer would have to pay higher taxes on one return to save money on the other return.


I agree with an earlier poster about the reduction in tax brackets being the straw man of simplification. The 1986 Tax Reform consolidated brackets to eliminate a phenomenon called "bracket creep," where someone's income would rise due to the higher inflation 1970s and early 1980s and get pushed into a higher marginal tax bracket. The tax brackets, and there were many of them, were quite narrow, and were not indexed, either another problem with the tax code back then.


In what will probably be the last year of itemizing my deductions (2017), I am glad to see that the medical expense threshold returns to 7.5% of AGI. This will enable me to recover most of the lost ACA subsidy due to going over the ACA cliff.
 
As reported in the NYT the plan will not allow prepayment of 2018 property taxes in order to get a full deduction in 2017. Which I guess also means no bunching taxes every other year specifically to get over the new higher standard deduction.
This is a bit confusing because we can’t pay 2018 taxes this yea4, but we could have paid 2016 and 2017 taxes this year. We paid 2017, but I don’t consider that prepayment.
 
Must depend on the state. In TX, property taxes are billed in October, and you have until Jan 31 to pay without penalty. So you “pay ahead” simply by paying before Dec 31, or you bunch deductions by paying in Jan for prior year and Dec of current year. More like paying late for prior years taxes.

Is anyone really prepaying 2018 taxes?!?

Depends on what you mean.

We were considering it for my Dad, who will probably owe several thousand in state income taxes for 2017 that he would have normally paid this coming April 2018. But if they weren't going to be deductible, he was going to prepay them this month to at least deduct them this tax year.

Now that the bill seems pretty final and there is a $10K deduction, he may skip it and just deduct next year. OTOH, it looks like he may be dropping from a 28% federal bracket to 24% next year, so it may still make sense.

I need to look at this more.
 
I don't think that section 11042 pertains to prepayment of property taxes in 2017. The section text, and the amendment discussion at the bottom of the pdf indicates "state and local income" taxes.
 
Tax Plan / Salt

Like I said b4:
Tax Plan \ SALT
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-debate-update

Partially preserved: SALT + Property Tax maxes out at 10k. Definitely helps average Californian who's income tax > property tax but combo lower than many other blue states (won't help new home buyers but moving that line helps almost everyone I personally know .... yeah I get the NIMBY). This is what worried me the most .... I'm not impacted either way but DS would be as he bought last year + pays income tax + itemizes
 
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I'm not sure where we will net out on this. Limiting SALT to $10K is a big bummer for us. Property taxes alone are over $14K. On the other hand, AMT changes may help so we'll have to see where it all nets out.
 
I saw this on another site regarding the $10k limit on state and local taxes:



Page 88 of Tax Bill…



“(b) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendment made by this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2016.”


I haven't read the rest of the thread yet so this question may already have been answered, but does this mean that if I were to prepay RE taxes for 2018 in 2017, they would not be deductible on my 2017 return? I suspect it does😟. Our accountant had told me that one can pay up to a year in advance and deduct them. For example the second half of our 2017 tax bill is not due until next May. Our accountant told us that we could pay those this year and deduct. He also said that we could prepay the first half of 2018's taxes which are due next November. I think the provision quoted above makes that no longer allowable.


Edit: I've now read the entire thread and see the discussion regarding this issue. So yes I was going to prepay half of 2018's taxes, the half that will come due in November of 2018. I spoke with the town and they indicated it would sit as a credit on my account until the 2018 taxes are assessed. I had planned to prepay the same amount as this year adjusted upward by 3.5%. I had confirmed with my accountant that the current code allowed it. Now with this language I will not do that. But I will prepay the remaining 2017 tax that are not technically due until next May.


Edit again: Post #56 above if correct throws me back to plan A🙄. Any other thoughts on this topic?


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I appreciate you posting the text info. Thank you.



.


But as I understand it the "additional standard deduction for age or blindness" has been eliminated, as other posters have pointed out. Am I correct?


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As reported in the NYT the plan will not allow prepayment of 2018 property taxes in order to get a full deduction in 2017. Which I guess also means no bunching taxes every other year specifically to get over the new higher standard deduction.

OK the pre-payment language is about state and local income taxes, not property taxes which they list separately in this section from page 81 of that second half (page 604 of the PDF)*:
The conference agreement also provides that, in the case of an amount paid in a taxable year beginning before January 1, 2018, with respect to a State or local income tax imposed for a taxable year beginning after December 31, 2017, the payment shall be treated as paid on the last day of the taxable year for which such tax is so imposed for purposes of applying the provision limiting the dollar amount of the deduction. Thus, under the provision, an individual may not claim an itemized deduction in 2017 on a pre-payment of income tax for a future taxable year in order to avoid the dollar limitation applicable for taxable years beginning after 2017.
I haven’t been billed for 2018 property taxes, so I haven’t prepaid them. I’m glad my already paid property tax bill says 2017 even though I can wait until Jan 31 2018 to pay it without penalty.

*The entire section:
The conference agreement provides that in the case of an individual,171 as a general matter, State, local, and foreign property taxes and State and local sales taxes are allowed as a deduction only when paid or accrued in carrying on a trade or business, or an activity described in section 212 (relating to expenses for the production of income).172 Thus, the provision allows only those deductions for State, local, and foreign property taxes, and sales taxes, that are presently deductible in computing income on an individual’s Schedule C, Schedule E, or Schedule F on such individual’s tax return. Thus, for instance, in the case of property taxes, an individual may deduct such items only if these taxes were imposed on business assets (such as residential rental property).

Under the provision, in the case of an individual, State and local income, war profits, and excess profits taxes are not allowable as a deduction.

The provision contains an exception to the above-stated rule. Under the provision a taxpayer may claim an itemized deduction of up to $10,000 ($5,000 for married taxpayer filing a separate return) for the aggregate of (i) State and local property taxes not paid or accrued in carrying on a trade or business, or an activity described in section 212, and (ii) State and local income, war profits, and excess profits taxes (or sales taxes in lieu of income, etc. taxes) paid or accrued in the taxable year. Foreign real property taxes may not be deducted under this exception.

The above rules apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2017, and beginning before January 1, 2026.

The conference agreement also provides that, in the case of an amount paid in a taxable year beginning before January 1, 2018, with respect to a State or local income tax imposed for a taxable year beginning after December 31, 2017, the payment shall be treated as paid on the last day of the taxable year for which such tax is so imposed for purposes of applying the provision limiting the dollar amount of the deduction. Thus, under the provision, an individual may not claim an itemized deduction in 2017 on a pre-payment of income tax for a future taxable year in order to avoid the dollar limitation applicable for taxable years beginning after 2017.

Effective date.−The provision is effective for taxable years beginning after December 31, 2016.
 
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I was literally planning to send in my property tax payment tomorrow. City confirmed they would accept payment now, amount due was made available Dec 1. Not my plan anymore...

And that was actually for 2018? They tell you on Dec 1 of 2017 what your 2018 property taxes will be?
 
I don't understand the pre-paid tax thing.

We get a property tax bill in July, which can be paid in 2 installments (the second one in December). We literally cannot get the bill before July 1st of the year payable (I've tried).

In Florida, the bill arrives in November and can be paid through May the following year (with installment charges added). Still, that is not the same as "pre-paying" the next year's taxes.
 
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Many thanks for the info :)


ETA:

Now I have found conflicting info.

That it did eliminate the over age 65 and/or blind extra standard deduction.

" Increases the standard deduction to $12,000 for single filers, $18,000 for heads of household, and $24,000 for joint filers, while eliminating the additional standard deduction and the personal exemption. Provisions sunset at the end of 2025.

https://taxfoundation.org/conference-report-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act/


If this is correct, single seniors who don't itemize have lost $250 right out of the gate.


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not if the marginal tax rate they pay goes down.
 
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet so this question may already have been answered, but does this mean that if I were to prepay RE taxes for 2018 in 2017, they would not be deductible on my 2017 return? I suspect it does😟. Our accountant had told me that one can pay up to a year in advance and deduct them. For example the second half of our 2017 tax bill is not due until next May. Our accountant told us that we could pay those this year and deduct. He also said that we could prepay the first half of 2018's taxes which are due next November. I think the provision quoted above makes that no longer allowable.


Edit: I've now read the entire thread and see the discussion regarding this issue. So yes I was going to prepay half of 2018's taxes, the half that will come due in November of 2018. I spoke with the town and they indicated it would sit as a credit on my account until the 2018 taxes are assessed. I had planned to prepay the same amount as this year adjusted upward by 3.5%. I had confirmed with my accountant that the current code allowed it. Now with this language I will not do that. But I will prepay the 2017 taxes that are not technically due until next May.

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The property tax "year" in California is the fiscal year, July 1 through June 30. Taxes become a lien on the property, although they are not then known, on January 1. Taxes are due in two installments, and are delinquent on December 10 and April 10. Based on the "tax years beginning after December 31, 2016," it will not be possible to pay the second installment of the 2017 property taxes in 2017 and deduct it in 2017. It sounds to me that if you did prepay the second installment in 2017, you may not get to deduct the amount at all. It was paid in 2017, not 2018, so it's not deductible in 2018. Am I missing something here?
 
Audrey; The conference language you quoted appears to apply to income tax only then and not RE taxes. Thus the NYT language is incorrect. Is that your interpretation?


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I am a bit confused on the changes to ROTH IRAs, if any. I have seen mentioned about recharactsrizations, but I am assuming this is different than ROTH conversions. Will backdoor ROTH and ROTH conversions still be allowed under the new plan?
 
The property tax "year" in California is the fiscal year, July 1 through June 30. Taxes become a lien on the property, although they are not then known, on January 1. Taxes are due in two installments, and are delinquent on December 10 and April 10. Based on the "tax years beginning after December 31, 2016," it will not be possible to pay the second installment of the 2017 property taxes in 2017 and deduct it in 2017. It sounds to me that if you did prepay the second installment in 2017, you may not get to deduct the amount at all. It was paid in 2017, not 2018, so it's not deductible in 2018. Am I missing something here?


I honestly don't know at this point. Fortunately I have not yet executed on this bunching plan of mine to pay either the 2017 taxes due next May or the 2018 portion due next November. I'll ask my accountant to interpret for me.

But further upstream others are pointing out that the 12/31/16 language applies to state and local income only and not real estate.

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I don't know if other states do this, but mine (New York) uses a lot of what you enter on your federal return as a starting point for your state return. This includes you main income sources on Form 1040/1040A/1040EZ and any itemized deductions you show on Schedule A. This means you can't itemize on your state return if you didn't itemize on your federal return. For me, it was always far more difficult to itemize on my state return for 2 reasons: (1) New York's standard deduction was always higher than the federal one, and starting a few years ago they began indexing it (finally!) so it would remain higher, and (2) you have to exclude your state income taxes, of course, from your federal return's "taxes you paid" amount. Taken together, I would have a far lower state itemized deduction to compare to a higher standard deduction.
THIS is going to get interesting. State legislatures are going to be busy this early year, maybe even some special sessions get called.

NC has their own standard deduction allowance, and before they reworked the taxes recently, they used to remove the inflation indexed allowance from the feds and keep it at mid-90s number. However, they changed some of this a few years ago. I'm trying to parse it, but I still think they have their own deduction amount that differs from the Feds. Maybe it won't apply, but I still smell a special session coming to adjust state taxes.
 
According to Forbes, the over 65/blindness deduction has been eliminated:

[Current Law] Additional Standard Deduction & Personal Exemptions. Currently, you can claim a $4,050 personal exemption for yourself, your spouse, and each of your dependents. Additionally, if you are over age 65, blind or disabled, you can tack on $1,300 to your standard deduction ($1,600 for unmarried taxpayers).

[New Law] Under all versions of the plan, including the conference bill, these will be "consolidated into this larger standard deduction" - meaning they disappear.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyp...eres-whats-in-the-final-version/#7bcb37514d63
 
I saw one question upstream on the $500 per filer credit that was in the original Senate version. Has that provision been retained or eliminated?
 
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I don't understand the pre-paid tax thing.

We get a property tax bill in July, which can be paid in 2 installments (the second one in December). We literally cannot get the bill before July 1st of the year payable (I've tried).

In Florida, the bill arrives in November and can be paid through May the following year (with installment charges added). Still, that is not the same as "pre-paying" the next year's taxes.

If the bill says it’s your 2017 property taxes, then you are not prepaying. If it said 2018 taxes then maybe there would be a problem.
 

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