Understanding Brexit

[imoldernu]

With Brexit heading much of the "news", decided to finally get around to understanding the United Kingdom Political structure. (have put this off for years, preferring to believe is was similar to our's.)

Maybe just a bit different... anyway, here are just a few of the words and terms that I came up with while browsing the latest news and commentary on Brexit.

Chequers
defenestration
Eurosceptic
Tory/Tories
Labour
Westminster consensus
mansion tax
Whigs
House of commons
Lower Chamber
Upper Chamber
Royalists
UK a Democracy?
Uk a monarchy?
Royalists
MP's
House of Lords
Leader of Her Majesty's opposition
Prime Minister
Centrist Liberal Democrats
Westminster
Scotland Wales Northern Ireland
hung parliiament
What/who is the cabinet?
ministerial departments
non-Ministerial departments
non-departmental public parties
Advisory NDBP's
Tribunal NDBP's
Acts of Parliament
devolved administrations
Acts of Union
DUP
Ukip
.............for starters.

...And, just for fun, "Google" British political system diagram.

 

[audreyh1]

The British Monarchy is known as a constitutional monarchy. This means that, while The Sovereign is Head of State, the ability to make and pass legislation resides with an elected Parliament.

From https://www.royal.uk/role-monarchy

 

[jim584672]

I have been looking at the British system for two years and have barely wrapped my head around it.

May came out with a softish Brexit plan and the hard liners are jumping ship saying it is worse than staying in the EU. So there may be a leadership challenge or not. The whole thing is a giant mess and no one knows how it ends.

 

[audreyh1]

Defenestration is the act of throwing someone or something out of a window. The term was coined around the time of an incident in Prague Castle in the year 1618, which became the spark that started the Thirty Years' War. This was done in "good Bohemian style" and referred to the defenestration which had occurred in Prague's City Hall almost 200 years earlier (July 1419), which also at that occasion led to war, the Hussite war.
........
Historically, the word defenestration referred to an act of political dissent. - from Wikipedia.

It has nothing specifically to do with the UK.

BTW the three men thrown out of the high window in 1618 survived! They fell on something soft.

 

[F4mandolin]

I'm hunkered down here in England for the long haul now (3+ years back). Brexit is a sore point with a lot of people. I just wish they would either make a "hard" Brexit of just stay in....one way or the other. There is another forum I was posting on that I gave up on.....most posters are younger and really really hate the idea of Brexit even though nobody really knows what will happen.....and they will bite your head off if it is even mentioned that it might turn out ok. My wife voted to Leave.....and still thinks it is the right thing. Like myself she doesn't want other people to tell her what to do....it's bad enough when the people she voted for tells her what to do but she can live with that.

 

[Denverite]

I'm hunkered down here in England for the long haul now (3+ years back). Brexit is a sore point with a lot of people. I just wish they would either make a "hard" Brexit of just stay in....one way or the other. There is another forum I was posting on that I gave up on.....most posters are younger and really really hate the idea of Brexit even though nobody really knows what will happen.....and they will bite your head off if it is even mentioned that it might turn out ok. My wife voted to Leave.....and still thinks it is the right thing. Like myself she doesn't want other people to tell her what to do....it's bad enough when the people she voted for tells her what to do but she can live with that.

Interesting. I do think there was an age distinction within the voting population for that issue. Think I heard the older Brits (40+) had a stronger tendency to vote for Brexit.

Shortly before the vote, the BBC had a feature on a 55 year old man who planned to vote for Brexit. In the piece, they went with him to the neighborhood of his childhood. He said "this was all British when I grew up. Now the neighborhood is completely middle easterners. Looking at the residents of this area, you would never know you were in England."

 

[F4mandolin]

Interesting. I do think there was an age distinction within the voting population for that issue. Think I heard the older Brits (40+) had a stronger tendency to vote for Brexit.

Shortly before the vote, the BBC had a feature on a 55 year old man who planned to vote for Brexit. In the piece, they went with him to the neighborhood of his childhood. He said "this was all British when I grew up. Now the neighborhood is completely middle easterners. Looking at the residents of this area, you would never know you were in England."

True...older folks are less inclined to change quickly. That is what I think the EU has wrong. I love the idea of the EU, I just think they aren't being smart in how they go about business. The complaint about Brexit (ifffff it even happens) that most annoyed me.....and usually came from younger people.....when asked why they were against Brexit the most common answer that I heard was "Because it might make it harder to go on vacation". Really? Not about the economy....or jobs....but that it might take a few extra minutes to go on vacation. Now....you have to understand the UK attitude on going on holiday. It is a bit.....uh....... ardent. They will go into debt to head to Spain and drink so much they can't remember what they did (not totally fair, but still....). If you don't go on holiday, it's a bit of a "diss". You MUST go on holiday. Must.

 

[jim584672]

True...older folks are less inclined to change quickly. That is what I think the EU has wrong. I love the idea of the EU, I just think they aren't being smart in how they go about business. The complaint about Brexit (ifffff it even happens) that most annoyed me.....and usually came from younger people.....when asked why they were against Brexit the most common answer that I heard was "Because it might make it harder to go on vacation". Really? Not about the economy....or jobs....but that it might take a few extra minutes to go on vacation. Now....you have to understand the UK attitude on going on holiday. It is a bit.....uh....... ardent. They will go into debt to head to Spain and drink so much they can't remember what they did (not totally fair, but still....). If you don't go on holiday, it's a bit of a "diss". You MUST go on holiday. Must.

The loss of freedom of movement closes off a lot of opportunities in Europe for the young. Also the ability to retire in the EU is lost without FoM.

 

[Pellice]

The loss of freedom of movement closes off a lot of opportunities in Europe for the young. Also the ability to retire in the EU is lost without FoM.

Yes, there is an important reciprocal freedom to attend universities all around the continent. And, I agree, the freedom of movement in and of itself is important physically and psychologically. Those two doors through which arrivees go through at the airport "Europeans" and "Other" - that's a psychological blow for someone accustomed to just strolling through. And the EU does so much good in the world. I was in remotest Guyana l(formerly British) last year, and saw a small sign that the basic cassava processing station at a household had been supplied by the European Union. Although I'm American, I was still proud that our allies were working to improve lives in this hemisphere, and, to be British, and look at that, and think you are no longer part of it, that would be sad.

 

[F4mandolin]

The loss of freedom of movement closes off a lot of opportunities in Europe for the young. Also the ability to retire in the EU is lost without FoM.

Loss of opportunities to work abroad I suspect are pretty small....the vast majority of people I know it just doesn't effect at all. Traveling will still be pretty easy....just not quite as easy.



The ability to retire to the EU is still there....maybe not as easy, but still there. Gets blown out of proportion like everything in the news either way.


I'm still not convinced Brexit will even happen. I can see another vote coming....but then that brings up other issues. If they had a vote(which they did, although some are of the mind that it wasn't binding so....).....and the results are not good enough.....so they have another vote to get the results that they want (whoever "they" is).....don't you then need to at least have yet another vote to make it best of 3? What if the next vote for PM is really really close?.....do they then have another vote? and another? until the difference is big enough? My view.....if you have a vote....live with the result or else it makes a mockery of the system.



I can live with it going either way....although at the moment I am moving my US retirement savings this way over the next few years.....so Brexit has been in my best interest so far. The future of the EU is on a bit shaky grounds these days with a few members maybe leaving....

 

[Oz investor]

the question was in real terms .... do you stay with the rotting hulk ( 'the good ship ' EU ) or do you try to swim for shore ( independent control of your destiny )

Warren Buffet has a quote for that

i think it was a brave move by Britain ( the vote ) however the implementation was hi-jacked by weak-willed politicians ( including May who was against Brexit in the beginning ) and the Brexit might still lead to national doom

 

[Mdlerth]

Rule Brittania

With Brexit heading much of the "news", decided to finally get around to understanding the United Kingdom Political structure. (have put this off for years, preferring to believe is was similar to our's.)

Maybe just a bit different...

A delightful place to begin is by watching a 1980s British comedy program called "Yes, Minister". It was said to be Margaret Thatcher's favorite program (although she would have spelled it "favourite").

Britain calls itself a "constitutional monarchy" but they don't have a written Constitution the way the USA does. In practice, they are a democratic republic featuring elected representatives (MPs) in a national legislature called Parliament.

Legislation passed by Parliament becomes law only after it is approved by the monarch (currently Elizabeth II), but the last monarch to withhold approval of an Act of Parliament was Queen Anne in the early 16th century.

A fascinating difference between the USA and the UK is that in parliamentary governments the executive and legislative functions are combined. The Prime Minister and the Cabinet Ministers, who represent the executive functions, are selected by the Parliament of which they remain members. (In a strict legal sense, just like in the above paragraph, the Prime Minister doesn't become PM until the monarch gives assent, but it's become a formality after three centuries of Parliamentary supremacy.) The USA holds separate elections for its executive and legislative functions.

The consequence is that the party of the UK's chief executive (the PM) typically already commands a majority in the legislature, so if the PM wants to issue orders which might require alterations to law, he/she can generally count on it being passed. OTOH, in the USA, it's common for the White House and the Congress to be controlled by opposing parties.

There have been exceptions, when "backbenchers" (members of the party who have not been selected for Cabinet posts) rebel against a policy of the PM. Winston Churchill famously "crossed the aisle" on occasion. The major political parties in the UK try to control their backbenchers via a system of "whips" (party bigshots who enforce discipline within their ranks).

This presents another fascinating difference between US and UK politics. In the UK, the party whips choose who will stand (i.e., "run") for election in each voting district. They don't hold primaries. If you want to remain your party's candidate for the seat you hold, you better toe the party line or the whips will pick someone else. MPs are typically elected or defeated based on the popularity of their party, not their own personal popularity.

I could go on for hours on this topic; as I've noted on this forum before I should never have gone into engineering. Had I followed my heart, I'd have been such a rabidly energetic professor of history and civics, that I would never want to retire! Of course, then I wouldn't be here on the forum, would I?

 

[F4mandolin]

the question was in real terms .... do you stay with the rotting hulk ( 'the good ship ' EU ) or do you try to swim for shore ( independent control of your destiny )

Warren Buffet has a quote for that

i think it was a brave move by Britain ( the vote ) however the implementation was hi-jacked by weak-willed politicians ( including May who was against Brexit in the beginning ) and the Brexit might still lead to national doom

Yep...I get it. The thing that always get me.....and it's true in the finance world as well (and probably everywhere else).....is that there about half of the people who are convinced that they are right.....and everybody else is wrong. And of course...the other half are believing the same. Neither side even seems to consider that they might be wrong. I'm used to it now....but I'm personally never convinced that my opinion is the only right answer. Yet....I constantly see others (for and against Brexit) who are convinced that they are right....and there is no other way to even proceed. I don't really get it.....sometimes you are wrong......

 

[Mdlerth]

Fortunately, I'm the exception!

Yep...I get it. The thing that always get me.....and it's true in the finance world as well (and probably everywhere else).....is that there about half of the people who are convinced that they are right.....and everybody else is wrong. And of course...the other half are believing the same. Neither side even seems to consider that they might be wrong. I'm used to it now....but I'm personally never convinced that my opinion is the only right answer. Yet....I constantly see others (for and against Brexit) who are convinced that they are right....and there is no other way to even proceed. I don't really get it.....sometimes you are wrong......

Also, a lot of time both "sides" are wrong, and the real answer lies somewhere entirely off the line that separates them.

 

[Oz investor]

some wiser friends ( than me ) consider Britain a complete mess ( to be polite )

however the EU is a sinking ship full of desperate rats ( somehow kept together by
Ms Merkel )

which is easier to sort out a devastated house or a totally ravaged city plagued by looters , OOPS i mean investment bankers .

i don't see the EU working together as a team to attempt the remediation

but i am happy to be proven wrong on that , i have a couple of EU focused investments

 

[jim584672]

My worthless guess on Brexit:
60% chance for a "no deal Brexit" - Talks break down.

40% chance for a very soft Brexit
0% chance for a remain outcome

Another referendum will not be held on any question.

 

[braumeister]

Also, a lot of time both "sides" are wrong, and the real answer lies somewhere entirely off the line that separates them.

Seriously? Where did you get that idea from? That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. Why, anyone can plainly see that one side is not only right, but completely virtuous as well, while the other side is not just wrong but downright evil.

Where do these people come from?

 

[F4mandolin]

Seriously? Where did you get that idea from? That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. Why, anyone can plainly see that one side is not only right, but completely virtuous as well, while the other side is not just wrong but downright evil.

Where do these people come from?

I was thinking it was maybe a reference to Star Wars or something. Something Yoda-like. Or.....as I have been known to do....bring up a reference to the great movie Buckaroo Bonzai..... No matter where you go....there you are.

 

[Mdlerth]

The old noggin is a phrenologist's dream!

Also, a lot of time both "sides" are wrong, and the real answer lies somewhere entirely off the line that separates them.

Seriously? Where did you get that idea from? That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. Why, anyone can plainly see that one side is not only right, but completely virtuous as well, while the other side is not just wrong but downright evil.

Where do these people come from?

As an infant I might have been dropped on my head once or twice. But I don't remember; I was pretty young then.

 

[MichaelB]

while the other side is not just wrong but downright evil.

My daughters, when talking with each other, would add "and you're also ugly"

I was thinking it was maybe a reference to Star Wars or something. Something Yoda-like. Or.....as I have been known to do....bring up a reference to the great movie Buckaroo Bonzai..... No matter where you go....there you are.

Love that film and that line.

 

[F4mandolin]

Love that film and that line.

And yet.....oh, so true.

 

[Nemo2]

. They will go into debt to head to Spain and drink so much they can't remember what they did

They also, apparently, don't want to miss the opportunity to 'plunge' (as their newspapers regularly say), to their deaths from Spanish hotel/apartment balconies......something they appear to do with alarming frequency.

 

[F4mandolin]

They also, apparently, don't want to miss the opportunity to 'plunge' (as their newspapers regularly say), to their deaths from hotel/apartment balconies......something they appear to do with alarming frequency.

Granted.....I am coming from a view of a boring person. Since we moved back to the UK 3+ years ago I haven't been more than 100 miles or so of Harrogate. I go to the golf course....I walk a lot....I can drink a lot of beer here, I don't need to go to Spain to do that.

 

[Popeye]

I was thinking it was maybe a reference to Star Wars or something. Something Yoda-like. Or.....as I have been known to do....bring up a reference to the great movie Buckaroo Bonzai..... No matter where you go....there you are.

Haha! I haven’t watched Buckaroo in a while. I have that DVD here somewhere...

 

[F4mandolin]

Haha! I haven’t watched Buckaroo in a while. I have that DVD here somewhere...

What I don't understand....of all the crap movies on repeat on my Sky subscription.....why don't they have movies like this? Huh?