Article: The ‘Radical Saving’ Trend Is Based on Fantasy

[marko]

No wonder once you're accustomed to a certain lifestyle, it's very difficult to go back. I feel for Mrs. Madoff, you know, Bernie's wife. It must be so hard for her. LOL

Having flown First Class for 4 million miles over 30 years DW and I only fly our 8 or 10 flights a year up-front.

When I first RE'd we did try a flight to Europe in coach. Let's just say it didn't work out.

 

[braumeister]

When I first RE'd we did try a flight to Europe in coach. Let's just say it didn't work out.

Back in the day I used to fly back and forth across the pond quite a lot on Pan Am 747s, and it was far better back in coach than up front.

Why? Because in those days the planes were half empty and you could take four seats abreast (they were 3-4-3 across) and stretch out with a blanket over you and sleep all the way across the ocean.

 

[marko]

Back in the day I used to fly back and forth across the pond quite a lot on Pan Am 747s, and it was far better back in coach than up front.

Why? Because in those days the planes were half empty and you could take four seats abreast (they were 3-4-3 across) and stretch out with a blanket over you and sleep all the way across the ocean.

But you missed out on the upstairs bar/lounge with the electric piano!

But they eventually replaced the lounge with seats; usually flew to Japan with 8 seats upstairs. Two rows of two on a side.

But if you really want luxury: First on Singapore Air. The only thing better is having your own private jet. Wine list in leather bound book, "Dom" for mimosas before take off.

 

[Svensk Anga]

My suspicion is that enough big shot business owners are getting worried about the rising visibility of the FIRE movement that they have given orders to their minions in the media to try to undermine it with lots of negative commentary. If this FIRE stuff catches on, consumerism declines, sales fall, profits crater, and eventually there will not be enough working stiffs to man the salt mines. They have to nip this trend in the bud. The "journalists" involved are likely wage slaves and so they have no choice but to follow orders.

 

[SnowBound]

Sounds like we need a new poll: How many here can fly first class but do not?

Going to be more interesting than the exit polls tomorrow!

 

[braumeister]

But you missed out on the upstairs bar/lounge with the electric piano!

But they eventually replaced the lounge with seats; usually flew to Japan with 8 seats upstairs. Two rows of two on a side.

Yes, I also flew a lot on Pan Am between US and South America. The upstairs was dedicated to Business class with no movies or other distractions so people could either work or sleep. That was always my first choice.

But every now and then they insisted on upgrading me to First Class, which was just absolutely awesome. Prime beef steaks and all the other trimmings.

Come to think of it, this stuff is probably a significant part of the reason there is no Pan Am anymore.

 

[Amethyst]

The "FIRE Movement," as it's being called, is just the latest novelty - which is also why the focus is on the few who manage to achieve extremely early FIRE, or who achieve it by very strenuous frugality.

In addition, the topic of FIRE is highly provoking to younger readers, who have been fed a steady social-media diet of how awful their retirement prospects will be, compared with earlier generations. Provoked people generate more clicks!

 

[revhappy]

What do you guys think of his statement that saving 50% of salary is radical. To me it is normal to save 50% of salary. Saving like 80% is radical.

 

[Gumby]

...I guess if you can't have it, then find a reason to knock it - nobody should be able to do it or be happy doing it.

I seem to recall that Aesop had a fable for this situation - something about a fox and some grapes.

 

[jazz4cash]

I am happy that many others think it is fantasy. Let them continue working and paying into SS. These stupid arrivals put too much emphasis on RE not enough on FI.

 

[donheff]

It was a very shallow article. Just some young guy defending his own outlook and not trying to understand alternative outlooks. There is nothing wrong with enjoying your work and saving so you can live well later. In fact, that is what many of us FIRE folks did. It is just that most of us in that boat considered FIRE to be a bit earlier than normal, like mid 50s or early 60s. The retire in your 30s radicals he dismisses are largely not interested in a life of consumption but elect a frugal life divorced from the obligation to work. Just a different choice. Most of those radical FIRE'ees don't attack people who choose a different lifestyle they simply point out their's is achievable.

 

[DatumPoint5]

I seem to recall that Aesop had a fable for this situation - something about a fox and some grapes.

Aesop's Fable numbered 15 in the Perry Index
The_Fox_and_the_Grapes
The narration is concise and subsequent retellings have often been equally so. The story concerns a fox that tries to eat grapes from a vine but cannot reach them. Rather than admit defeat, he states they are undesirable. The expression "sour grapes" originated from this fable.

 

[Amethyst]

That fable is also highly apropos whenever people condemn one or another luxury as decadent or evil. Diamonds, fur coats, large houses, etc. You can't afford it, and nobody is ever going to buy one for you, so find a moral argument against it, and work it like there's no tomorrow.

Aesop's Fable numbered 15 in the Perry Index
The_Fox_and_the_Grapes
The narration is concise and subsequent retellings have often been equally so. The story concerns a fox that tries to eat grapes from a vine but cannot reach them. Rather than admit defeat, he states they are undesirable. The expression "sour grapes" originated from this fable.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Some info about the author—sort of interesting imo. He’s early 40s and worked at Lehman Bros. His book about Lehman might be interesting.


From Bloomberg: Jared Dillian is the editor and publisher of The Daily Dirtnap, investment strategist at Mauldin Economics, and the author of "Street Freak" and "All the Evil of This World." He may have a stake in the areas he writes about.

From dailydirtnap.com, his website about his newsletter ($795/year, started in 2008):

Jared Dillian is the editor of The Daily Dirtnap, a daily market newsletter for investment professionals, continuously published since 2008. He graduated from the United States Coast Guard Academy in 1996 with a B.S. in Mathematics and Computer Science, and from the University of San Francisco in 2001 with a Masters in Business Administration, concentration in Finance. Jared worked for a small floor market maker on the Pacific Options Exchange from 1999-2000, and was a trader for Lehman Brothers from 2001 to 2008, specializing in index arbitrage and ETF trading. He is also the author of STREET FREAK: Money And Madness At Lehman Brothers, which was named Businessweek’s #1 general business book of 2011, and the novel ALL THE EVIL OF THIS WORLD, published in 2016. Additionally, Jared is a teaching associate in the graduate business program at Coastal Carolina University. Jared is also a regular contributor at Forbes and Mauldin Economics, and a columnist at Bloomberg View. His media appearances include MSNBC, Bloomberg TV, BNN, The New York Times, LA Times, Business Insider and dozens of local and syndicated radio programs.

 

[HFWR]

 

[ncbill]

Some info about the author—sort of interesting imo. He’s early 40s and worked at Lehman Bros. His book about Lehman might be interesting.


From Bloomberg: Jared Dillian is the editor and publisher of The Daily Dirtnap, investment strategist at Mauldin Economics, and the author of "Street Freak" and "All the Evil of This World." He may have a stake in the areas he writes about.

From dailydirtnap.com, his website about his newsletter ($795/year, started in 2008):...He graduated from the United States Coast Guard Academy in 1996 with a B.S. in Mathematics and Computer Science, and from the University of San Francisco in 2001 with a Masters in Business Administration, concentration in Finance. Jared worked for a small floor market maker on the Pacific Options Exchange from 1999-2000

Normally one owes 5 years active duty after graduating from a service academy...was he separated before fulfilling his contract?

If so, that usually means he'd have to pay back the entire cost of his education, assessed in the low 6 figures.

No wonder he's a proponent of continuing to work...

 

[Bestwifeever]

His bio here About — Jared Dillian says he served out his five-year commitment “mostly on the West Coast.” (I always snoop into the puff piece authors’ backgrounds—not saying he’s right or wrong or supporting his POV, just for background). I think a lot of young people who found themselves unemployed in 2008, and there were so many of them, might be skittish about never having a source of income again, though.

 

[lhamo]

When I first started working at my post-PhD non-profit job, they let us fly business class on long-haul flights. So on a flight back from Asia we got bumped up to first class on our BKK-NRT-SEA flight. Which was great until about mid-way through the first leg, which was when the food poisoning from the shrimp cocktail they had served as an appetizer on the first meal kicked in.

I ended up missing the opportunity to walk in my Ph.D. graduation ceremony a few days later.


I haven't really missed first class since, though the few times I got bumped to business were sure more comfortable than economy. I don't eat shrimp cocktail on long haul flights anymore, though.

 

[maestro]

i think it's accurate - it doesn't imply that one should fly first class, just that one could if one chose to

No, it implies you've done something 'wrong' if you don't, the way I read it. JMHO.

 

[Arizona1]

What’s up with the connection to a tiny home. Too high price per square foot on those. I think most people here just don’t see the value in consuming just to consume. Nothing worse than a mundane structured life revolving around working, paying taxes, spending it plus tax, then working again.
Retired at 34 18 years ago, just came back Sunday from 7 week vacation to Europe because We had the time, and you guessed it- flew first class.

 

[revhappy]

What’s up with the connection to a tiny home. Too high price per square foot on those. I think most people here just don’t see the value in consuming just to consume. Nothing worse than a mundane structured life revolving around working, paying taxes, spending it plus tax, then working again.
Retired at 34 18 years ago, just came back Sunday from 7 week vacation to Europe because We had the time, and you guessed it- flew first class.

That is amazing that you were able to do it. But I don't think it is possible anymore. Saving, that much of your salary and generating good investment returns on top of it is a tall order in today's conditions. I would consider myself lucky if I could FIRE at 50 and I don't include flying business class even, in my plans.

 

[Lagniappe]

That is amazing that you were able to do it. But I don't think it is possible anymore. Saving, that much of your salary and generating good investment returns on top of it is a tall order in today's conditions. I would consider myself lucky if I could FIRE at 50 and I don't include flying business class even, in my plans.

People like Justin (RootOfGood), Sam Dogen and countless others who don't have blogs are doing it in today's environment at around the same age. It is certainly a challenge, but it is achievable.

 

[Amethyst]

Not sure about "today's conditions" - economic conditions are actually better than some "todays" in my memory bank. But it certainly is a challenge for a modest income. The temptation, for some, would be to overreach on risk, and lose it all. In fact, I know someone who did just that. He had to marry a woman who owned her own home, to make up for it

For 50-and-earliers, "Freedom" rather than "Business class air" may be the prime motivator

That is amazing that you were able to do it. But I don't think it is possible anymore. Saving, that much of your salary and generating good investment returns on top of it is a tall order in today's conditions. I would consider myself lucky if I could FIRE at 50 and I don't include flying business class even, in my plans.

 

[revhappy]

In my opinion, and I may be completely wrong, people who are high achievers and earn well, often enjoy their work and are not the types that RE. Those that don't like working (that's me) and in it only for the money, are highly motivated to RE. So we were never high achievers or made a lot of money to begin with. Hence, my perception of FIRE guys are often frugal and not the types who take business class for travel.

But reading this thread and some others makes me realize, that there are people who were high achievers and still decided to retire early.

 

[Bestwifeever]

People like Justin (RootOfGood), Sam Dogen and countless others who don't have blogs are doing it in today's environment at around the same age. It is certainly a challenge, but it is achievable.

Some are quite open that they had a working spouse to help pad the nest egg for a few years after they lost their jobs and sone developed “side hustles”—some did both.