$2.27 million to feel wealthy - 3% withdrawal rate

I suppose it all comes down to where you live. $4-5mm NW might be a large sum in some areas, but may not be quite as reassuring in others.

It is not just where you live that matters (HCOL/LCOL areas), but also how each of us define comfort. Being single, my threshold for feeling "comfortable" is around $30K per year in a fairly high COL area (while owning my home free and clear). That includes lumpy expenses like home and car repairs, car and appliance replacement, etc... My basic spending is about $15K. But I have a very simple lifestyle, by design. I value free time above all else, so I keep my life as unencumbered as possible. I realize that it is not for everyone.

"Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants." - Epictetus
 
Oops. The $500K price for that yacht appears to be for the hull only. A complete boat is going to be a few mils, depending on customization. :facepalm:
Darn! I was all ready to order one! Cheaper than buying a house in Hawaii!
 
Exactly!

What's most important here (from my point of view), is not that those in HCOL areas could spend less for the same lifestyle in an LCOL area. We all know that can be done. But many people have very good reasons to live in HCOL locations, such as family, friends, surroundings that they enjoy, and many other reasons.

What I am trying to say is that I regard HCOL location as being a purchase and the important thing for all of us to realize what we are purchasing and for how much. For example, if someone lives in an area that costs them $20K/year more than another area, are they getting sufficient value for their money out of that $20K/year purchase? If so, great! Often it is. If not, relocating is always an option.

By discussions like the present one, we can figure out how much we are paying for location and figure out if it is worth it for us.

Yes, this. Our HCOL area (Coastal S. California) affords/allows the ability to be outdoors year-round pursuing a wide range of free activities, plus access to a tremendous amount of free entertainment due to living alongside several popular beach towns. If a series of negative market turns were to occur, we could cut our spend back to just essentials and still enjoy an amazing-to-us lifestyle. Just the scenic beauty alone of where we are leaves me feeling wealthy, no additional spend necessary. Of course YMMV here, but we do work hard to remain aware of, and get appropriate value from, the financial cost we paid to settle here, and not to take it for granted.
 
Exactly! It surprises me when I see people post that they can live on $18K (HOW? - are they REALLY tracking every last penny of expense? I'm doubtful, and suspect these are more broad-brush estimates than numbers from Quicken or a similar app. Our property taxes and utilities alone are $18K+). Our "core" (food, clothing, cars, property taxes, utilities, charities / gifts [not excessive by any means], etc) expenses are $60K+. Add HC ($20K+), Fed and State taxes and maybe one nice two-week vacation out of country (flying coach and using FF miles) and you're at $90-100K+ quickly. And we consider ourselves middle (definitely not upper) class - and as I've said before, that includes buying our clothes at Kohls (never Nieman Marcus or similar), driving Chrysler cars (not even BMWs let alone anything fancier) and clipping coupons..

Every time I see the $18-25K numbers,its usually 1 of 3 things.
1. They are getting a lot of subsidies/employee benefits/etc.
2. They are not accounting for everything and exclude the one-offs which aren't really one-offs as your water heater needing to be replaced should be planned as part of reserves, as next year it will be the stove, and then the A/C, and then ..
3. There is a stockpile going into retirement so the money is already pre-spent. So if you buy a new car, replace the roof/siding, etc just as you enter retirement, you have a long time before you need to spend money. That also includes the stockpile of bedding, small appliances, clothes, furniture that people often have. I mean if you have 25 sets of new towels sitting in your closet, you likely don't need to buy anymore (and I know a lot of people that do.. ie what I call Kohls cash syndrome.. ie I have Kohls cash, I need to spend it on something. ok another set of towels, another coffeemaker, etc).
 
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Darn! I was all ready to order one! Cheaper than buying a house in Hawaii!

Sorry for the mistake. I was dreaming there for a while too. :)

That shows how much I know about yachts. :LOL:
 
Ah, there's still some hope. How 'bout a hand-me-down yacht for 385K euros (US$432K)?

It's 92' long, and built in 1987 and refurbished in 2010. It's docked in Greece now, ready for you to fly over to inspect.

There's room for 12 passengers, plus a crew of 5.

PS. Ugh! Price has been recently reduced from 485K euros to 385K euros. Time on the market: 5 years!

I dunno. I don't know much about buying a used car, let alone a used yacht. How about you?


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I think a lot of it has to do with your recurring (not even major, one-off) housing costs and where you live. It'd be great if we could get our property taxes down from the $8K+ we pay now, but unless we move to the hinterlands or out of state, that's not happening..and with DW having a big family here, there's zero chance she'll want to move out of state or even "up north" (I've already tried..). Then there are the utilities..nearly $8K also, and we don't have anything 'fancy' - just basic cable & internet (nearly $2K/year - and that's with no "premium" channels), cell service (cheapest "over 50" plan we could find), gas, water and electric. Hard to fathom it's that much, but is what it is, also..prior to ER, I went through our budget aggressively and with a fine tooth comb and took out everything I could possibly take out. It's about as bare-bones as you can get and even limited to 2X/month eating out - usually at Chilis or similar..(albeit, that's a discretionary expense but an example of just how tight we made things)..with a smaller house (ours is pretty 'average') and living in a lower COL area, I could MAYBE drive $10K+ off our total housing cost. But we'd still easily be at $40K+ before taxes, HC and vacation..and that'd be being super, super frugal also..


Do you renegotiate your cable bill every year? We have 3 providers to compare prices from, or else we switch off which one of us has the service in our name so every year we have the new customer pricing.
 
Do you renegotiate your cable bill every year? We have 3 providers to compare prices from, or else we switch off which one of us has the service in our name so every year we have the new customer pricing.

Good point. Didn't think of the name switching aspect.
 
Ah, there's still some hope. How 'bout a hand-me-down yacht for 385K euros (US$432K)?

It's 92' long, and built in 1987 and refurbished in 2010. It's docked in Greece now, ready for you to fly over to inspect.

There's room for 12 passengers, plus a crew of 5.

PS. Ugh! Price has been recently reduced from 485K euros to 385K euros. Time on the market: 5 years!

I dunno. I don't know much about buying a used car, let alone a used yacht. How about you?

It's 30+ year old boat. From the photos the interior is dated. I wonder what was 'refurbished'.
For that (low) price I'd be leery...might still need a lot of engine/infrastructure work (water, electrical, etc.)

They may had a hard time getting rid of it. Just like housing, those who can spend $500K might decide to spend $250K more and get a newer more comfortable boat.

By today's standards, it's kind of in the middle between a cheap large boat and an expensive small-ish boat.

OTOH, back in the 60's we had a woman nearby who bought an old 82 foot, engine-less, rubber-bottomed tub and had no intention of taking it to sea. She put it on a mooring in the harbor and made it her summer home.
 
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Yes, I suspect that not all is well for the thing to be on the market for 5 years.

Much better to spend that $500K for a little condo in Hawaii.
 
Oops. The $500K price for that yacht appears to be for the hull only. A complete boat is going to be a few mils, depending on customization. :facepalm:



I was wondering about that.
 
Yes, this. Our HCOL area (Coastal S. California) affords/allows the ability to be outdoors year-round pursuing a wide range of free activities, plus access to a tremendous amount of free entertainment due to living alongside several popular beach towns. If a series of negative market turns were to occur, we could cut our spend back to just essentials and still enjoy an amazing-to-us lifestyle. Just the scenic beauty alone of where we are leaves me feeling wealthy, no additional spend necessary. Of course YMMV here, but we do work hard to remain aware of, and get appropriate value from, the financial cost we paid to settle here, and not to take it for granted.



This is what has kept us in So CA also. However we also highly value nice beaches with warm water and great viz for diving. So CA falls short on this. We are trying to find another place we could live that would meet our diving/warm beaches need while also offering at least some of the other benefits So CA offers. Haven’t found it yet, but still looking.
 
Appreciate the insight, but still hard to fathom..."all" of your spend is from one single account? ATM withdrawals? Checks? Credit Card payments, etc?

You don't move "any" money from one account to another?

Your food budget is actually higher than ours ($350/mo). But our car expenses alone are > $10K and that's for two mid-range Chrysler products..Property taxes are near $10K..

It'd be great to hear from those tracking "every" penny in Quicken what their real expenses are. I spend a few hours a week tracking, so it's hard for me to comprehend a scenario where there's "one" account that pays everything as we have many accounts that money moves from/between..

That all said, guess it depends on what part of the country you live in also..but you can't live "middle class" where we live ("average" neighborhood in a MCOL area) for south of $90K/yr and that's being super anal about every single dollar spent including clipping coupons and eating leftovers several nights a week..I suspect many that live near/around us are probably 20-50% higher than we spend..

I don't understand why you can't fathom that I can look at one account, add up all the debits related to all online bill pay transactions, and the super rare check, and determine our annual spending. No hours of tracking expenses each month needed. I don't track categories. I compute the amount spent each year for the prior year in less than a half hour, and input it into my spreadsheet for forecasting purposes.

We use one checking account for all bill paying, using online bill pay. We use cash back credit cards for everything that doesn't involve a surcharge. Regular in-store shopping, occasional online shopping, utility bills, insurance, etc. The credit card bills then get paid in full via online bill pay. Cash mainly gathers dust in my wallet. No discount for using cash, so why would I?

I keep ATM cards valid by using them as a debit card before the expiration date, so they keep issuing new ones. Not even necessary every year. I set a calendar reminder for this. No regular ATM withdrawals needed.

We paid cash for our house in 1996, so we have no mortgage payment. My $38K figure from last year does include car payments for one vehicle.

We have multiple accounts (2 checking, 2 brokerage, 2 Roth IRAs, 2 HSAs, 1 401k) and do move money between them, but those aren't expenses. It's done for investment purposes. Roth IRA contributions. Surplus money not needed to cover bills is regularly transferred from checking to brokerage. Money is transferred from an HSA to checking as reimbursement for medical expenses that were originally paid via credit card. Those transfers are no more "income" as an "expense", and I'm familiar with double-entry accounting (former accounting student and accounting clerk).

My husband is still employed and makes over 6 times what he made when we first married, yet we wisely don't spend 6 times as much. Last year's spending was about half of his net pay, 35% if you count the value of 401k/HSA contributions that we don't have unrestricted access to at this time.

I've given up searching for and clipping most coupons as a major waste of my time that's much better spent in making sure I'm regularly investing surplus money. Much more profitable and efficient. But I do love leftovers and cook most meals from scratch. :D
 
I too have no plans to leave CA anytime soon. I'll gladly pay the premium for the amenities.

Gonna get a boat soon too. But not a yacht, just a little runabout to cruise and fish the delta. But I will park it at a marina, no trailers por moi por favor.
 
HW, 90k would be great in Nevada. The median income for a family of 4 is 47k. We have seen some horrendous poverty in our travels. In Europe the places that we have visited most families don’t live in more than 1000 sq ft, have one bathroom and no dryer or dishwasher. Many can’t afford to travel. The problem with retiring to a country with a LCOL is that you might find yourself stuck there.
 
I don't understand why you can't fathom that I can look at one account, add up all the debits related to all online bill pay transactions, and the super rare check, and determine our annual spending. No hours of tracking expenses each month needed. I don't track categories.

I agree and I'm going to do this myself. All my online pays are from checking and so are the checks, as well as the atm hits. Cool idea and easy! Thanks - :)
 
We have seen some horrendous poverty in our travels. In Europe the places that we have visited most families don’t live in more than 1000 sq ft, have one bathroom and no dryer or dishwasher. Many can’t afford to travel.

Having lived in Europe I'm curious what areas you're referencing. Not even close to our experiences.

Frankly, we find the overall quality of life in Europe to be slightly better than the US. A better work/life balance.

Unless you're talking certain places in Eastern Europe...or the areas where the recent immigrants congregate.
 
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Haha, I wish. I just happen to live in a HCOL area, where property tax starts at ~$10k for a small fixer upper and easily runs to $20k for an average home. Our HC premium is $25k with a $11k deductible for a family of four. That does not include any dental expenses, or orthodontist treatment for children. Adding food, utilities, cars/gas, insurance, etc., it would be quite heroic for a family of four to maintain a normal living on $38k/year (or even $75k/year) budget in the area, without receiving something (food, housing, health care, etc) that is heavily subsidized.

Now, that is just basic living. To achieve a middle class living, there are additional expenses such as entertainment, travel, kids EC activities (sports, music, summer camps, etc.). That could be easily $20-30k. Those may not be absolute necessities, but we all incur those expenses.

I suppose it all comes down to where you live.

Our area is becoming a higher COL area. It's quite likely that we'll be moving in a few years. My research shows that we'll have to pay at least $300K for a comparably sized home. Property taxes are over $4 to $5K in those areas. I realize that might sound cheap to many here, if you're in a HCOL area now.

Family health care coverage through my husband's employer at $163.54 every 2 weeks. HDHP. $1800 company contribution to an HSA. $4,000 family deductible. Dental coverage, including ortho, free of charge, vision coverage, also free of charge. We know full well we've got it pretty good right now and costs will be going up if/when he retires before Medicare age.

We've never spent anything close to $20K to $30K on extracurricular for our 2 kids. They weren't interested in sports or summer camp. We took family vacations most years when they got older. Our daughter was in music in school and took school trips. I don't think we spent $1K for her each year to participate in these things. Costs just weren't that high.
 
I DO think it has a lot to do with where you live- where I live 75K a year without a mortgage is a LOT of money. (Not enough to buy an NFL team or a Yacht, but those both sound like a headache to me).

As to your other point, I know couples (around here) who make $200K per year and spend every nickel, accuse the other of wasting money, and don't have anything to spare for retirement. I know couples who make 70K, who are saving 12K per year for retirement- they also have kids who are in sports and take vacations. I don't doubt that financial Samurai says it can't be done, but I also don't doubt that someone who has the will to do it, has found a way to do it. "Necessities" can be relative to your situation.

+1

Isn't there a saying...It's not what you make, but what you keep. :cool:
 
Do you renegotiate your cable bill every year? We have 3 providers to compare prices from, or else we switch off which one of us has the service in our name so every year we have the new customer pricing.

Yep - our city is "supposed" to have 2 main cable providers, and does in many parts. Problem is - the second provider only built out in Phase One of our sub, and for whatever reason never built out in the other phases (including ours).

I've actually gone to the city on this as it does irk me that we have one (and only one) choice, and they have us over a barrel - at least if we want cable internet..city manager guy was very helpful, and I even got the lead engineer from the second cable provider on the phone so the 3 of us could talk it through. Engineer said they will "evaluate" (the profitability) of building the rest out, but net is that we have NO choice whatsoever in providers at present, so no ability to negotiate with the provider we do have (ugh). I'd assume if they do decide to go ahead and build out the rest (doubtful), it'd be 2-3 years until we could actually buy it by the time they get permits approved, do the digging and cable install, etc..and we hope to be gone and downsized by then, if we can ever find our lower cost ER home..
 
I hit the bank site and added up the last 12 months. Two hundred and thirty five grand!

Woo-Hoo, Blow That Dough!
 
RobbieB if I had your money I would throw mine away. LOL Have fun and I would die on the spot if I spent that much in one year. Lol
 
Every time I see the $18-25K numbers,its usually 1 of 3 things.
1. They are getting a lot of subsidies/employee benefits/etc.
2. They are not accounting for everything and exclude the one-offs which aren't really one-offs as your water heater needing to be replaced should be planned as part of reserves, as next year it will be the stove, and then the A/C, and then ..
3. There is a stockpile going into retirement so the money is already pre-spent. So if you buy a new car, replace the roof/siding, etc just as you enter retirement, you have a long time before you need to spend money. That also includes the stockpile of bedding, small appliances, clothes, furniture that people often have. I mean if you have 25 sets of new towels sitting in your closet, you likely don't need to buy anymore (and I know a lot of people that do.. ie what I call Kohls cash syndrome.. ie I have Kohls cash, I need to spend it on something. ok another set of towels, another coffeemaker, etc).

1. Define subsidies. Our health insurance is reasonable from my husband's employer. They self-insure. See my post #144.

2. See my post #139. I account for everything. This year will be a new roof, contracted for $7,600. I'll have to write out a check for that to avoid the CC surcharge. That will, of course, easily show up as a debit in the checking account that I use to tally the total for our annual spending this year at the start of next January. It would be pretty hard to miss. :facepalm:

3. :confused: But I do need some new towels. Some of ours are over 27 years old, for a fact. :LOL:

Not specifically addressing anyone in particular, but it seems there's some disbelief here that families (or individuals) can live on what is perceived as so little. Either we're not accounting for everything we're spending, or we're getting subsidies (does this mean government handouts), or something else that I can't quite figure out.

Why is spending these modest amounts of money to live any more unbelievable than the disbelief some have posted getting from co-workers when announcing their early retirements? Same thing, IMO.

A case in point. A gallon of milk in our area has been selling for $1.49 recently. Regular price. Not on sale. No coupons. At 2 different stores. What do you pay for a gallon of milk? A gallon of gas? $2.41 lately here. Multiply those differences by other common mutual expenses we might share.

We could spend much more than we are, but why? We're happy and all our needs and wants are met at this time.
 
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