Fat Fire Question

[mz44]

I agree, fat fire is a step up from your working expenditures. You define the percent above, 10, 20 percent?

It is relative to your spending while working.

Say your last year of w*rk you spent $120k.

Fat FIRE would imply spending $120k-$150k+. You spend the same or more than when w*rking.

One More Year is real. One less year taking from your portfolio, paying for health insurance. One year closer to Medicare/SS.

 

[HI Bill]

I have also seen over 100k spending as Fat fire, but I would think it probably is higher than that number.

Well, you could live in a HCOL area, have a house and 2 kids, and that $100K wouldn't go far, and you wouldn't be eating caviar or drinking Dom.

 

[USGrant1962]

Well, you could live in a HCOL area, have a house and 2 kids, and that $100K wouldn't go far, and you wouldn't be eating caviar or drinking Dom.

The census says the median household income (presumably higher than spending) in the US is ~$66K. Living in HCOL a choice on how you spend your fatness...

FWIW, Cali median income (not spending) is ~$80K and the top ~40% make over $100K. So even there, spending >$100K (not income) is above average.

https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/2019-median-household-income.html

 

[Jerry1]

I have also seen over 100k spending as Fat fire, but I would think it probably is higher than that number.

I agree. My budget is $100K and I certainly don’t feel like I’m living Fat. I see Fat FIRE as having things like two residences (snow birding) one them on a lake or close, if not on the beach. Upper Middle Class for sure. I don’t know where the line is, but I think over 100K and probably closer to $200K.

However, I like the definition based on your working status. If I was living on $X while working and I live on more than that in retirement, that’s Fat. By that standard, I guess I’m lean. I was living on much more as I was working. But, when I realized that I could live very well on less, I was happy to do so and call myself retired. Heck, I’m so effing grateful for what I have and the life it gives me. Fat or not, $100K provides a very comfortable life. All I need to do is not screw it up.

 

[USGrant1962]

I agree. My budget is $100K and I certainly don’t feel like I’m living Fat. I see Fat FIRE as having things like two residences (snow birding) one them on a lake or close, if not on the beach. Upper Middle Class for sure. I don’t know where the line is, but I think over 100K and probably closer to $200K.

However, I like the definition based on your working status. If I was living on $X while working and I live on more than that in retirement, that’s Fat. By that standard, I guess I’m lean. I was living on much more as I was working. But, when I realized that I could live very well on less, I was happy to do so and call myself retired. Heck, I’m so effing grateful for what I have and the life it gives me. Fat or not, $100K provides a very comfortable life. All I need to do is not screw it up.

Fat FIRE and "upper middle class FIRE" are probably the same thing.

Fat and lean FIRE are regularly used terms in certain other forums. The definition you describe, comparing it to your work spending (I think, or was that work income?) was apparently just made up by Bloom2708. If not I would like to see references.

EDIT - and FWIW, the younger folks that use those terms on reddit would consider most of the members on ER.org to be fatFIRE.

 

[Winemaker]

DW and I didn't w*rk most of my life to live my retirement on a budget less than what we made when we were working. Wasn't going to happen. When all is said and done, looks like we could have retired earlier, but there was so many variables 2009-2010, and we never even thought about retiring. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Still no regrets.

 

[Gumby]

My goal was always that our standard of living would stay the same or improve after we retired. So far, that has been the case. A label will not change things.

 

[Koolau]

My goal was always that our standard of living would stay the same or improve after we retired. So far, that has been the case. A label will not change things.

True, but "Fat Fire" just sounds so cool. I don't seem to spend a lot, but I could, so I'll claim "Fat Fire" status if only for the Cool of it.

 

[flintnational]

My goal was always that our standard of living would stay the same or improve after we retired. So far, that has been the case. A label will not change things.

+1 Well said.

 

[Dtail]

Well, you could live in a HCOL area, have a house and 2 kids, and that $100K wouldn't go far, and you wouldn't be eating caviar or drinking Dom.

Agree and thus my comment. I used to live in a HCOL while working and 100k spending would have never cut it for us.

 

[Dtail]

My goal was always that our standard of living would stay the same or improve after we retired. So far, that has been the case. A label will not change things.

Interesting.
As for us, there was no way we were going to retire with the same spending as when we were working. It was close to 200k.
We changed our spending habits one year before retiring quite a bit and lessened it more upon retirement and don't feel like we are missing anything.
The work lifestyle just wouldn't fit us now anyways.
As one simple example, we never cooked and had a 40k food budget. It is still 14k yearly, but works great for us cooking 4x weekly.

 

[Dtail]

I agree. My budget is $100K and I certainly don’t feel like I’m living Fat. I see Fat FIRE as having things like two residences (snow birding) one them on a lake or close, if not on the beach. Upper Middle Class for sure. I don’t know where the line is, but I think over 100K and probably closer to $200K.

However, I like the definition based on your working status. If I was living on $X while working and I live on more than that in retirement, that’s Fat. By that standard, I guess I’m lean. I was living on much more as I was working. But, when I realized that I could live very well on less, I was happy to do so and call myself retired. Heck, I’m so effing grateful for what I have and the life it gives me. Fat or not, $100K provides a very comfortable life. All I need to do is not screw it up.

Agree 100%. See my relative post #36.

 

[Big_Hitter]

I fat fired but then I lost 40 pounds in 2020

 

[nap470]

Fire status is based on BMI (Body Mass Index).

Lean Fire - BMI under 25
Moderate Fire - BMI from 26-29
Fat Fire - BMI over 30

It's a joke. It's just a joke.

Currently in Fat Fire, working hard to get to Moderate Fire with a dream of Lean Fire someday!

 

[Christine]

I believe Fat Fire goes well with a Low Carb diet.

While some level of Fat Fire spending might not feel that extravagant for people living in HCOL areas I would still argue that it is a Fat Fire. Since if their spending were cut down then they would not have been able to live in a HCOL area at all. And they still have the option of moving somewhere with a lower COL and spend a lot on ie travel or other hobbies.

 

[Big_Hitter]

"Fat FIRE allows you to:
* Live in the most expensive cities in the world, which all have wonderful culture, food, nightlife, entertainment, schools, and arts

* Live in a comfortable house with at least three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a yard if you have one or more kids, or a luxury two bedroom or greater condo if you are a childless couple or individual

* Save or have enough to pay for all your children’s college education

* Travel for 8 or more weeks a year while living in 4 or 5 star hotels

* Drive a safe and reliable car that’s not older than five years

* Eat and drink the finest foods

* Afford excellent healthcare

* Take care of all your parents financial needs since they sacrificed so much to raise you

* Have no need for either partner or spouse to work every again

Fat FIRE is at the opposite end from Lean FIRE, where individuals cut their expenses to the bare bones in order to survive."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-is-fat-fire-best-way-to-retire-early/

 

[ncbill]

"Fat FIRE allows you to:
* Live in the most expensive cities in the world, which all have wonderful culture, food, nightlife, entertainment, schools, and arts

* Live in a comfortable house with at least three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a yard if you have one or more kids, or a luxury two bedroom or greater condo if you are a childless couple or individual

* Save or have enough to pay for all your children’s college education

* Travel for 8 or more weeks a year while living in 4 or 5 star hotels

* Drive a safe and reliable car that’s not older than five years

* Eat and drink the finest foods

* Afford excellent healthcare

* Take care of all your parents financial needs since they sacrificed so much to raise you

* Have no need for either partner or spouse to work every again

Fat FIRE is at the opposite end from Lean FIRE, where individuals cut their expenses to the bare bones in order to survive."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-is-fat-fire-best-way-to-retire-early/

He could actually FatFIRE if he moved out of San Francisco instead of whining about how his $250,000/year income (which he could continue to make from anywhere in the world) isn't sufficient to live there.

Though his complaining does point out the disadvantages of remaining in a HCOL area after retirement.

 

[ivinsfan]

"Fat FIRE allows you to:
* Live in the most expensive cities in the world, which all have wonderful culture, food, nightlife, entertainment, schools, and arts

* Live in a comfortable house with at least three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a yard if you have one or more kids, or a luxury two bedroom or greater condo if you are a childless couple or individual

* Save or have enough to pay for all your children’s college education

* Travel for 8 or more weeks a year while living in 4 or 5 star hotels

* Drive a safe and reliable car that’s not older than five years

* Eat and drink the finest foods

* Afford excellent healthcare

* Take care of all your parents financial needs since they sacrificed so much to raise you

* Have no need for either partner or spouse to work every again

Fat FIRE is at the opposite end from Lean FIRE, where individuals cut their expenses to the bare bones in order to survive."

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-is-fat-fire-best-way-to-retire-early/

Bare bones, well guess that's in the eye of the beholder, and my eye tells me this is pretty arrogant. You couldn't pay me enough to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

Fart Fire. It might stink, but it's better than going back to the cubicle.

 

[MarieIG]

I guess 6 figures in a number is the annual spending in fatFIRE. If you make $1M a year, you can fatFIRE with many less years.

I was also thinking that OP meant a budget of at least 100k.

 

[grayv]

snob alert!

from that blog's leanfire list......

" Living in a low cost area of the country where it’s more homogenous".

 

[DrRoy]

First year base was = to last year of w*rk. Went 20% over to replace two old cars with one new car, and travel.
2nd year 125% of base, travel.
3rd year 160% of base, travel and remodeling
4th year 175% of base, travel and remodeling
This year expect 190% of base for same.
Each year, the rising market contributed to our willingness to BTD. This year's WR was 3%.

 

[YVRRocketSurgery]

First year base was = to last year of w*rk. Went 20% over to replace two old cars with one new car, and travel.
2nd year 125% of base, travel.
3rd year 160% of base, travel and remodeling
4th year 175% of base, travel and remodeling
This year expect 190% of base for same.
Each year, the rising market contributed to our willingness to BTD. This year's WR was 3%.

It seems like instead of a fixed withdrawal rate, you're taking a more flexible approach (which I'm hoping to do too). I'm assuming that when returns are good, you're willing to spend more on discretionary items and cut them when the portfolio has a poor year? Are you setting any upper limit guardrails for the maximum WR you are willing to have in year? Are you using the previous year's returns to guide for your spend in the current year or just adjusting as needed in the current year?

 

[DrRoy]

It seems like instead of a fixed withdrawal rate, you're taking a more flexible approach (which I'm hoping to do too). I'm assuming that when returns are good, you're willing to spend more on discretionary items and cut them when the portfolio has a poor year? Are you setting any upper limit guardrails for the maximum WR you are willing to have in year? Are you using the previous year's returns to guide for your spend in the current year or just adjusting as needed in the current year?

Flexible, yes. 1st year was a ridiculously overcautious 1.6% WR. We definitely spent more following a good year. The only weak year in the lot was 2018, where I was down 3.5%, but we still spend more in 2019, perhaps because the rebound was already happening. 3% is my max WR. This year is the end of the anticipated remodeling, so next year's spending will fall almost no matter what. Even if we replaced the car in 2022 (a 2018 model), we would spend less than this year.

 

[Retire52]

like a lot of things, the answer is relative. to someone living in a poor country, fat fire maybe having a warm, dry place to sleep and enough food to last several days. fat fire to me is a comparison of what my life style and spending at peak earnings during my *ork years to what the last four years of retirement have been.

looking back, after subtracting for savings, I am spending 50% more, so I'd say I was living fat. Ironically, I dont believe the money has really changed my day to day standard of living much-- incremental improvements overall in housing, food. the increase spend though really impacted my travel with about 2x travel at slightly better accommodations and roughly 2.5x's the Free time ( I figured with weekends and 30 days off a year when *working). all the free time has been the main driver to my increased stand of living in my opinion, which I am most grateful for and which we can all bask in.