Nuclear Investing?

[Gumby]

I think green proponents know the above. They just did not anticipate the plummet of hydro power due to the drought, or plan for lack of wind power on calm days, etc...

The whole problem with renewable energy is that we do not have sufficient storage, e.g. reservoirs for stored hydro power, or batteries to store power on bountiful days, and use it on low-wind overcast days.

Until people understand the above, they will keep demanding the unreasonable.

I guess zealots do not make good engineers..

 

[NW-Bound]

What you call a lifestyle change, many (most?) would call a lower standard of living.

It was an intended euphemism.

Well, I believe in going "green". However, this endeavor is similar to one when one tries to become trim and fit. It takes work and discipline. It takes exercising, and controlling your diet. You cannot expect to take a few pills to burn off your fat, while eating Cheetos and spending all evening watching TV.

Similarly, going green will require some efforts, and also expenses. Anybody who says differently is lying.

 

[NW-Bound]

The electric company killed solar in Hawaii by lobbying for eliminating net metering. Prior to that solar was growing like crazy.

Similarly, we have the volcano here on the big island that is even better than nuclear for heating water to steam yet we only have one tiny geothermal plant. We could be producing enough electricy for the entire state.

And we have reliable winds in the form of trade winds yet very little wind generators.

Matson also makes a lot of money hauling the fuel for the FF generators from the mainland.

It's politics not technology holding us back.

I don't know about the consistency of wind in Hawaii, but other places have had problems with variability of wind and solar power. We have talked about that often on this forum.

 

[Turbo29]

Similarly, burning natural gas in your furnace and using the heat directly to heat your home is substantially more energy efficient than burning natural gas at a powerplant, turning the heat into electricity, transmitting the electricity to your home and using resistive electric heating to heat your home. I fail to see how fewer greenhouse gases will be generated by banning the use of natural gas in homes.

I think the plan is for electric heat pumps, which may be more efficient than burning the natural gas directly depending on the climate, the heat pump, and the efficiency of the natural gas generating plant.



https://www.aceee.org/sites/default/files/publications/researchreports/a1602.pdf

 

[aja8888]

I think the plan is for electric heat pumps, which may be more efficient than burning the natural gas directly depending on the climate, the heat pump, and the efficiency of the natural gas generating plant.



https://www.aceee.org/sites/default/files/publications/researchreports/a1602.pdf

Yeas, those can work well in warm states, but not in colder northern ones.

 

[mpeirce]

Yeas, those can work well in warm states, but not in colder northern ones.

There are some newer, surprisingly efficient in cold weather heat pumps available these days. Our upstairs area is heated by a Mitsubishi high-efficiency heat pump (mini-split). It was putting out plenty of heat last winter when we had a couple of sub-zero days.

Of course heat pumps have their own issues. Our downstairs system is a more traditional ducted system with a heat pump and propane backup. I don’t really love the heat from the HP - it’s not as warm as the heat when it’s running on propane. This means the system runs the fan longer when using the heat pump and the air coming out of the air vents is not as warm.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I don't know about the consistency of wind in Hawaii, but other places have had problems with variability of wind and solar power. We have talked about that often on this forum.

Yeah, there is an (abandoned?) set of windmills on the south end of the Big Island near South Point. My understanding from an engineer that used to work on them is that they just cost too much to maintain.

The geography of the Big Island is that the saddle between the two tallest volcanic peaks, Manua Kea and Mauna Loa, funnels the trade winds into a certain area and there is a small wind farm there.

They ar etalking about puting in offshore wind farms but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime. There are not even interconnect cables between the islands as far as I know.

We also have strong ocean currents between some islands that are not exploited with wave energy systems.

I'm actually not a strong advocate for these alternative energy systems. I'm just observing that there are lots of alternatives here in Hawaii that are no being pursued. I think they would be if they could be profitable.

 

[Gumby]

Yeah, there is an (abandoned?) set of windmills on the south end of the Big Island near South Point. My understanding from an engineer that used to work on them is that they just cost too much to maintain.

The geography of the Big Island is that the saddle between the two tallest volcanic peaks, Manua Kea and Mauna Loa, funnels the trade winds into a certain area and there is a small wind farm there.

They ar etalking about puting in offshore wind farms but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime. There are not even interconnect cables between the islands as far as I know.

We also have strong ocean currents between some islands that are not exploited with wave energy systems.

I'm actually not a strong advocate for these alternative energy systems. I'm just observing that there are lots of alternatives here in Hawaii that are no being pursued. I think they would be if they could be profitable.

I think one of the problems with offshore wind in Hawaii is the lack of a continental shelf on which to locate the towers. The seafloor simply plunges to the abyss almost within spitting distance of the islands.

 

[NW-Bound]

I'm actually not a strong advocate for these alternative energy systems. I'm just observing that there are lots of alternatives here in Hawaii that are no being pursued. I think they would be if they could be profitable.

Hawaii is one of the best places for solar. The sky is not often as cloudy as it is in other places. The weather is also mild, so that you don't have extreme variations in energy usage like other places that have to run the AC 24/7 in the summer, nor like places that have to burn natural gas for heating in the winter.

According to data from NREL.org, a solar panel of 330W rating that I can buy for $150 here in the mainland will produce 548 kWh/year at the Honolulu location, worth $191 at the local electric rate. A panel generates its cost in electricity in less than 1 year!

Of course, the problem with any RE source is the variability, and there's a need for energy storage. But given that electricity costs $0.35/kWh in Hawaii, it should be the first place where lithium storage makes economic sense, before anywhere else. Then, why has it not happened?

Having a DIY off-grid system to play with, I have learned a lot more about power production variation than people who only read or fantasize about these systems. At this time of year, when I need neither cooling nor heating, my system produces more than enough for my usage. My 32-kWh lithium battery holds more than enough to last through the night. Having a good start in the morning, it is usually full at about 1PM, and all my solar charge controllers go to sleep. I have a lot of potential power that I cannot harvest, because there's no place for it to go.

And then, two days ago, I saw that the battery did not get full even at 4PM when the sun angle already got low and it was past prime production time. What happened? I had two consecutive slightly cloudy days in a row. That was enough to make a difference. It was a high cloudiness that I would not notice, if it weren't for the state of the battery that caught my attention.

Managing RE is not an easy job. Imagine if you have to depend totally on rainwater catchment for your domestic water use. How large a reservoir do you need for your household, so that you will have water year round? And I am talking about places where it rains, say, in Seattle or Oregon.

We have reservoirs and lakes for water storage. We don't have anything like these for electricity. The commercial battery installations that companies are building now are really puny, in the big scheme of things. Drops in the buckets. It's the same as you trying to store rainwater in a couple of 55-gal drums. It's better than nothing, but if that's all you have, you will need a lifestyle change.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I think one of the problems with offshore wind in Hawaii is the lack of a continental shelf on which to locate the towers. The seafloor simply plunges to the abyss almost within spitting distance of the islands.

That's not entirely true. Most of the area between Maui, Lanai, Molokai, and Oahu is not that deep. I have hear talk of building offshore wind farms but it takes so long to do anything here that I will never see it.

It also does not seem unreasonable to have floating, water ballasted towers.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Managing RE is not an easy job. Imagine if you have to depend totally on rainwater catchment for your domestic water use. How large a reservoir do you need for your household, so that you will have water year round? And I am talking about places where it rains, say, in Seattle or Oregon.

I actually do depend totally on rainwater catchment!

Solar is great in Hawaii. Those who got in early can put the power they generate back into the grid at the same price they buy power from the electric company. It's called "net metering" and was costing the power company dearly so they lobbied the legislature to get rid of it. So now if you get a system it is not that lucrative. I've gotten quotes for solar that show a payback period of over 30 years! I use almost all my power at night so that includes a storage system. It just doesn't pay for itself in my case, partly because I also don't use a lot of power.

 

[NW-Bound]

Solar is great in Hawaii. Those who got in early can put the power they generate back into the grid at the same price they buy power from the electric company. It's called "net metering" and was costing the power company dearly so they lobbied the legislature to get rid of it. So now if you get a system it is not that lucrative...

The net metering was allowed back when few people had solar. Now, if everyone generates a lot of power early in the day where generation was good but nobody uses it, what does the utility company do with it? And then, in the evening when the sun is down but everybody is home from work cooking for dinner and the AC is still cranking, where does that power come from?

I often quoted the LA Times article that said how California, when it had too much solar power but no place to put it, was paying Arizona to use some of the surplus power. Yes, we were paid to help use up some of that power. It happened when there was so much power pumped into the grid in early spring when ACs were not needed and in midday when solar was peaking. The utilities were required to accept that power, but there was no storage for it.

All around the world, net metering is out. This practice does not make sense, and of course cannot continue.

If we allow driving power into the grid at all, the price should be at the market spot price. This means that Californians who pumped power into the grid when AZ was paid to use free power should be charged for creating that surplus, which cost all Californians money. And then in the evening, they draw power from the grid, which is imported at high prices from generating plants in AZ. No wonder electricity is so expensive in CA.

When there is a surplus of solar power, you cannot sell it at the same price as when power is scarce. The law of supply and demand rules supreme. You cannot sell a gallon of water during a flood at the same price it commands when there is a drought.

 

[NW-Bound]

Back on how the world will need something reliable to back up wind and solar energy, here's another chart showing how renewable energy is a fickle lot, despite being so abundant and cheap at times.

Look how solar and wind power generation in Germany both die out at night. Also, note the huge variation within a couple of days. The energy storage required to buffer this variation is huge and extremely costly.

 

[Gumby]

Back on how the world will need something reliable to back up wind and solar energy, here's another chart showing how renewable energy is a fickle lot, despite being so abundant and cheap at times.

Look how solar and wind power generation in Germany both die out at night. Also, note the huge variation within a couple of days. The energy storage required to buffer this variation is huge and extremely costly.

Pumped hydro storage could be a solution. An interesting factoid - the first pumped hydro storage facility in the US was the 29 MW Rocky River Pumped Hydro Storage Station, built in New Milford, Connecticut in 1929. It is still in operation.

 

[NW-Bound]

Here in Arizona, the SRP (Salt River Project) hydro storage has been in operation also since the early 1900s.

Pumped hydro storage is nothing new. However, the world ran out of locations suitable for reservoirs long ago.

For the entire US, we would need something the scale of the Great Lakes! Imagine the ecological damage when the lake levels go up and down tens of feet when we pump water back and forth.

 

[NW-Bound]

The world's largest pumped hydro storage is here in the US.

The Bath County Pumped Storage Station is a pumped storage hydroelectric power plant, which is described as the "largest battery in the world", with a maximum generation capacity of 3,003 MW, an average of 2,772 MW, and a total storage capacity of 24,000 MWh. The station is located in the northern corner of Bath County, Virginia, on the southeast side of the Eastern Continental Divide, which forms this section of the border between Virginia and West Virginia. The station consists of two reservoirs separated by about 1,260 feet (380 m) in elevation. It is the largest pumped-storage power station in the world.

The storage capacity of 24,000 MWh is impressive. But how to put it in context?

Let's look at the power used by LA County. It's 65,650 million kWh in 2020. That works out to a daily average of 180,000 MWh/day.

The above Bath County Pumped Storage can supply LA County for 3.2 hours.

PS. The world's largest lithium battery storage being built, the Vistra's Moss Landing Power Plant in Monterey County, is 1,200 MWh. That's what LA County burns in 10 minutes.

 

[ERD50]

The world's largest pumped hydro storage is here in the US.



The storage capacity of 24,000 MWh is impressive. But how to put it in context?

Let's look at the power used by LA County. It's 65,650 million kWh in 2020. That works out to a daily average of 180,000 MWh/day.

The above Bath County Pumped Storage can supply LA County for 3.2 hours.

PS. The world's largest lithium battery storage being built, the Vistra's Moss Landing Power Plant in Monterey County, is 1,200 MWh. That's what LA County burns in 10 minutes.

And there is no place for one near LA anyhow. The geology of the Bath site is what made it possible.

But even if there were a place near LA, the environmentalists wouldn't allow it to be built (and probably justifiably so, not just an anti-everything reaction). There are all sorts of issues with those, plus, the water evaporates (especially in hot/dry LA) and has to be topped off regularly. Where's that water going to come from?

There was a much smaller one proposed In CA, the "SMUD" district IIRC (San Mateo?), it would only provided minutes I think - just filling gaps as gas turbines came up/down. And that one got shelved.


-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

That's not entirely true. Most of the area between Maui, Lanai, Molokai, and Oahu is not that deep. I have hear talk of building offshore wind farms but it takes so long to do anything here that I will never see it.

It also does not seem unreasonable to have floating, water ballasted towers.

Big initial expense to build. High ongoing maintenance. Ask the Brits how their offshore wind generators are doing.

 

[Gumby]

Pumped hydro storage is only one form of battery. I have other ideas, most of which I think can be more distributed and not require so much land or environmental impact. To wit;

1. The momentum battery - a large array of motor generators attached to the largest flywheels you can build. You spin them up with solar generated electricity during the day and then they generate at night. They could be centrally located in a large "power station" or spread around the grid.

2. The heat battery - pick a phase change material that has a relatively high melting point and a large latent heat of fusion (probably a salt hydrate). Use excess solar generated electricity to melt it during the day and recapture the heat at night as it re-solidifies, either directly or by using it to generate electricity similar to an RTG. I see this as a very distributed technology, maybe on a house-by-house basis.

 

[Turbo29]

PS. The world's largest lithium battery storage being built, the Vistra's Moss Landing Power Plant in Monterey County, is 1,200 MWh. That's what LA County burns in 10 minutes.

And about what Palo Verde in Arizona (largest nuke station in the US) produces in 20min when all three reactors are running.

 

[SecondAttempt]

The net metering was allowed back when few people had solar. Now, if everyone generates a lot of power early in the day where generation was good but nobody uses it, what does the utility company do with it? And then, in the evening when the sun is down but everybody is home from work cooking for dinner and the AC is still cranking, where does that power come from?

Yes, I understand the problem. I suspect Oahu could soak up most overgeneration if hey had undersea tranmission lines between the islands. Excess power can also be used to generate hydrogen which can be burned to generate cleanly at night. (I know, Hindenburg... But there is a demonstration level project here to do that). Water could be pumped uphill then released to generate at night. There are many options.

While eliminating fossil fuel use would be good for the environment in general, here in Hawaii there is a more immediate payoff - lower electric rates.

 

[NW-Bound]

The world's largest pumped hydro storage is here in the US.

The storage capacity of 24,000 MWh is impressive. But how to put it in context?

Let's look at the power used by LA County. It's 65,650 million kWh in 2020. That works out to a daily average of 180,000 MWh/day.

The above Bath County Pumped Storage can supply LA County for 3.2 hours.

And there is no place for one near LA anyhow. The geology of the Bath site is what made it possible.

But even if there were a place near LA, the environmentalists wouldn't allow it to be built (and probably justifiably so, not just an anti-everything reaction). There are all sorts of issues with those, plus, the water evaporates (especially in hot/dry LA) and has to be topped off regularly. Where's that water going to come from?

There was a much smaller one proposed In CA, the "SMUD" district IIRC (San Mateo?), it would only provided minutes I think - just filling gaps as gas turbines came up/down. And that one got shelved.

-ERD50

Of course, the topography of the Bath Reservoir is very unique for it to be the "world's largest pump storage", and to remain at the top.

I was just comparing its capacity to the usage of LA County for a scale, in order to demonstrate the problem we are up against with energy storage in order to be 100% green. It's mind boggling.

PS. I was curious, and found an aerial view of the upper and lower Bath reservoirs. Very interesting.

 

[NW-Bound]

Pumped hydro storage is only one form of battery. I have other ideas, most of which I think can be more distributed and not require so much land or environmental impact. To wit;

1. The momentum battery - a large array of motor generators attached to the largest flywheels you can build. You spin them up with solar generated electricity during the day and then they generate at night. They could be centrally located in a large "power station" or spread around the grid.

2. The heat battery - pick a phase change material that has a relatively high melting point and a large latent heat of fusion (probably a salt hydrate). Use excess solar generated electricity to melt it during the day and recapture the heat at night as it re-solidifies, either directly or by using it to generate electricity similar to an RTG. I see this as a very distributed technology, maybe on a house-by-house basis.

Pumped hydro storage is still the only massive-scale energy storage today. Nothing else even comes close.

The flywheel energy storage systems (FESS) are typically small-scale, and practical systems store a mere 6kWh with a lot of complications.

See: https://energystorage.org/why-energy-storage/technologies/flywheel-energy-storage-systems-fess/

Heat storage has been used for solar thermal plants, where molten salt stores the heat to generate steam to drive turbines for a few hours of operation after sunset. There are a few such plants in operation in Spain. A Spanish company built the Solana plant in Gila Bend, AZ. Thermal storage capacity of the Solana plant is 1500 MWh. Solana plant is about 60 mi south from where I live.

Thermal solar plants like the Solana are not cheap to operate. APS has a contract to buy power from Solana at a price of 14c/kWh, in order the meet the RE mandate. This price is high, compared to the usual 4c to 7c/kWh for wholesale electricity.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solana_Generating_Station

 

[NW-Bound]

And about what Palo Verde in Arizona (largest nuke station in the US) produces in 20min when all three reactors are running.

I had to double check your number. Yes, it's correct. The Palo Verde plant output is 3.3 GW on the average.

Your point brings up another observation. That is, if the Palo Verde takes 20 min to produce what LA County uses in 10 min, then it means that the capacity of the largest nuclear plant in the US is only 1/2 of what LA County uses. In other words, it takes 2 Palo Verde plants to supply LA County.

Again, it's mind boggling how much energy the US uses.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, I understand the problem. I suspect Oahu could soak up most overgeneration if hey had undersea tranmission lines between the islands. Excess power can also be used to generate hydrogen which can be burned to generate cleanly at night. (I know, Hindenburg... But there is a demonstration level project here to do that). Water could be pumped uphill then released to generate at night. There are many options.

While eliminating fossil fuel use would be good for the environment in general, here in Hawaii there is a more immediate payoff - lower electric rates.

If I were in Hawaii, my DIY solar+ battery storage system would be 3x more cost effective than it is here in AZ. It's because my average rate is 12c/kWh, compared to Hawaii's 35c/kWh.

Why haven't more Hawaiians do this? Perhaps not too many people have a single-family home with a large enough roof. Or maybe they do not use much electricity due to mild climate, hence do not care.