What does it mean to be a professional?

[ShokWaveRider]

Let me throw a spanner in the worx. Is a professional considered the same as an executive? They tend to both be upper middle class, maybe being upper middle class is a better description.

Bottom line we all have our own perceptions (perceptions is key) of what is what and where we fit. At the end of the day as long as one is happy where they fit, does it really matter?

People do not like putting a "class" name to anything as it does imply certain things. Unfortunately, I cannot think of a better designation.

Someone who lives in a $20m home, has a $100m yacht etc. etc. that are FULLY paid for, and are easy for them to maintain, given their current regular income, are in a far better "class" than I. That is OK. Call it what you like.

At the same time, those who live in a $400k neighborhood and those who live in a $800k neighborhood are also at a different level in our pre-determined society. Whether $400k is Middle Class and $700k is Upper Middle is subject to perception again. Same criterion applies, that are FULLY paid for and are easy for them to maintain. Those who live beyond their means to "appear" to be of a certain ilk need not apply. Whether one is an Uber Driver or a Doctor is somewhat moot.

Coming into money that is unearned (Lottery) or rich Daddy IMHO has a totally different classification.

 

[PatrickA5]

According to my first employer (Fortune 50 oil company), I wasn't a professional and therefore couldn't have arms on my chair or sit closer than 20 feet to the window. After 7 years of night school, I finally finished my degree and became a "professional". Nevermind the fact that my actual job (accounting) didn't change at all.

Still bitter 40 years later, LOL!

 

[skyking1]

contrary to some other definitions above, in the trades you called someone a professional who was very good at whatever job he was doing. It was a paid compliment of the highest order.
It was not about a piece of paper. I've seen some miserably inadequate paper-holders.

 

[F.I.R.E User]

I feel I like I am not a professional but just a learner.

 

[Telly]

I have been an engineer for over 15 years doing similar type of work. To me that is my career, as It has earned me the lions share of my income throughout my life. But some still debate whether I am even actually an engineer by definition.

If you have graduated from an accredited Engineering School, then you are an Engineer, a Professional.

However, if you went to a school that did not award a true Engineering degree, such as a BSMET for example (Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering Technology), then you would not be a real Engineer, just a glorified technician. The classes, the outlook, the rigor, are totally different. "Technology" teaches a particular, well, technology! And "technologies" come and go. "Engineering" teaches the underlying principles which can be applied to any technology that comes along.

A story -- Many years ago, I was nearing the end of Jr. College, to get an Associates degree in an Engineering Technology curriculum. My plan was to go on to a four year school that awarded BSxET degrees. But as part of one of my classes, I went on a field trip to visit a well-known very large Megacorp, one of the mothers of all megacorps. There, an Engineer who was conducting the nittty-gritty details tour talked with me at the end. I had asked the most intelligent questions, and could figure out a lot of what I was seeing was for, and how some bits of it worked. He wanted to know what I was doing next. I told him my plan. He said he wouldn't do that, that I would never be hired as, or become, an Engineer via that path. Engineers are not "created" by promotion. I would just be a glorified technician, a second-class citizen shut out of the real Engineering world.

I then checked into it on my own, asking many people, and asked people to help me find out. It was true. And it remained true my entire Engineering career. "Engineering career", because I took his advice then to heart. It was a tough road. I had to literally start all over again. Only my English requirement and some other liberal arts class transferred for credit at the big U I then went to, rated #2 in the nation for my field. It was tough, money was tight, and I was competing with the best of the best. But it was a key that opened a big door, and I made the right decision. Never regretted it. Our kids are Engineers, and are doing very well. They grew up in a Science and Engineering household. They themselves expected to go on to a University and do something worthwhile, from an early age. No pushing or prodding on our part!

 

[1242Vintage]

Just a few weeks after I graduated Civil Engr school I got a job in construction engineering. I thought I was done with studying until my supervisor handed me a couple of very thick test prep review books for the Professional Engineers exam. He was a very large man with a booming voice. Still remember his advice … son you’ll never go anywhere in this profession until you pass your f##king PE exam.

He was right!

Throughout my career being a Professional meant that others had confidence in my work and trusted me to exercise good judgement and decision making on projects under my responsible charge.

It really comes to a point when your name, engineer seal, and signature is the only name on a set of plan sheets. It’s your product and it better be a good one!

 

[jollystomper]

contrary to some other definitions above, in the trades you called someone a professional who was very good at whatever job he was doing. It was a paid compliment of the highest order.
It was not about a piece of paper. I've seen some miserably inadequate paper-holders.

It can also be about ones ability to see beyond their work/task into the bigger picture. Like the story about seeing 2 brick layers at work, and asking them what they are doing.

Person #1: "I'm just putting brick down".

Person #2: "I'm building a cathedral".

 

[Koolau]

My Megacorp had two types of workers: "Professionals" and "hourly." Most typically, "professionals" had at minimum a 4-year university degree. I was considered professional which meant that I received a salary and was NOT paid overtime. The other term used for "professional" was "exempt" meaning one was exempt from many of the provisions of the fair labor standards act - for instance OT pay.

I speak often of my buddy who is half a mil in debt at 77. We worked together and he was hourly while I was exempt. Near as I can calculate, we made just about the same most years. He put in some OT (and got paid for it). I put in a lot of OT and just got my salary. SO, "professional" or "exempt" or whatever you call it became somewhat of a euphemism for "chump" at Megacorp - especially in later years. But, I'm not bitter. YMMV

 

[ShokWaveRider]

I speak often of my buddy who is half a mil in debt at 77. We worked together and he was hourly while I was exempt. Near as I can calculate, we made just about the same most years. He put in some OT (and got paid for it). I put in a lot of OT and just got my salary. SO, "professional" or "exempt" or whatever you call it became somewhat of a euphemism for "chump" at Megacorp - especially in later years. But, I'm not bitter. YMMV

I would say the Chump is the one that is in debt. MMDV

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

OK, since this question has been answered to the satisfaction of all; how about we figure out what "retired" is...

 

[Koolau]

I would say the Chump is the one that is in debt. MMDV

I actually only mentioned him to illustrate the difference (very little was my point) between hourly and "professional."

But, since you bring it up...

You know, I probably called my buddy a Chump even 5 years ago. But then the "Chump" legally defaulted on most of his credit cards (took a hit on his credit score but was back in CC heaven within a couple of years.) He leases 2 cars and has a Vette project (upwards of 800HP last I asked). He lives in a lovely new house. He "lives" on close to $80K/year (his and hers SS plus his/hers pensions.)

As we laugh about each time we speak of these things: I'll die with the most money and the "Chump" will die with the most toys. His question: "So, who is the real 'Chump' in this scenario?" Only you can decide as YMMV.

 

[2177V]

+1 like lawyers, doctors, accountants, architects, engineers, etc. and they are typically licensed by the government or accredited by a professional organization.

from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia has the best definition. I am an Engineer who had a PE license in both Mechanical Engineering and Civil Engineering plus I was a Board Certified Environmental Engineer or BCEE. To get my professional engineering licenses, I had to pass an 8 hours open book written examination for each discipline to demonstrate my qualification. To prepare myself for that 8 hour examination, I spent 400 hours of studying time for that 8 hours examination and only 35% to 50% of the engineers would pass that PE examination.

My BCEE goes a few steps further: A PE is just a preliminary requirement for a BCEE and there is both a written and oral examination by a board. The examinations were closed book and I ended up memorizing 200 formulas in order to pass the BCEE test.

Generally if you do any engineering work that is necessary to protect the public like designing a bridge or a building, then the engineer must be a licensed Structural Engineer with a PE or a licensed Civil Engineer. A Bridge or a building can represent a danger to the public if the Bridge or building is designed by a less qualified engineer.

 

[aja8888]

Wikipedia has the best definition. I am an Engineer who had a PE license in both Mechanical Engineering and Civil Engineering plus I was a Board Certified Environmental Engineer or BCEE. To get my professional engineering licenses, I had to pass an 8 hours open book written examination for each discipline to demonstrate my qualification. To prepare myself for that 8 hour examination, I spent 400 hours of studying time for that 8 hours examination and only 35% to 50% of the engineers would pass that PE examination.

My BCEE goes a few steps further: A PE is just a preliminary requirement for a BCEE and there is both a written and oral examination by a board. The examinations were closed book and I ended up memorizing 200 formulas in order to pass the BCEE test.

Generally if you do any engineering work that is necessary to protect the public like designing a bridge or a building, then the engineer must be a licensed Structural Engineer with a PE or a licensed Civil Engineer. A Bridge or a building can represent a danger to the public if the Bridge or building is designed by a less qualified engineer.

That all sounds real good and great that you are a PE like many if us here....but do you have a BUSINESS CARD (that's the real ID of a professional)?

 

[2177V]

That all sounds real good and great that you are a PE like many if us here....but do you have a BUSINESS CARD (that's the real ID of a professional)?

A Business Card can easily be faked.

A PE ink stamp can be copied.

I have two embossed seal stamps (Mechanical & Civil) which means my plans has a raised impression of my certification. Extremely difficult to duplicate a raised embossed seal of a PE certification. A Custom made embossing Stamp is under $50 according to....

https://www.simplystamps.com/logo-embosser-seal-with-text

IMO...Having a Embosser for your PE stamp is the Real ID of a professional.

There are not very many PE with three certifications. There are a few with two but three is rare. One PE is very common. As a result, I was unemployed for only one week out of my 44 years long career. I was deployed to Afghanistan because it was easier to send me than 3 PE into a combat zone. Unfortunately I did not get 3 times my pay.

 

[aja8888]

A Business Card can easily be faked.

A PE ink stamp can be copied.

I have two embossed seal stamps (Mechanical & Civil) which means my plans has a raised impression of my certification. Extremely difficult to duplicate a raised embossed seal of a PE certification. A Custom made embossing Stamp is under $50 according to....

https://www.simplystamps.com/logo-embosser-seal-with-text

IMO...Having a Embosser for your PE stamp is the Real ID of a professional.

There are not very many PE with three certifications. There are a few with two but three is rare. One PE is very common. As a result, I was unemployed for only one week out of my 44 years long career. I was deployed to Afghanistan because it was easier to send me than 3 PE into a combat zone. Unfortunately I did not get 3 times my pay.

I was just joking....

 

[kingkarmann]

Professional…..
It applies to those who have previously been in an occupation that most laypeople can participate in. Those laypeople who excel become professional through extreme recognition of peers and/or monetary compensation of sponsors who can exploit a gifted individual or group.
I performed exemplary in my previous career, expertly executing my tasks of assembling and inspecting human conveyances. I did this in a highly professional manner. However, because there is no “extreme recognition” it is difficult to consider common labor as “professional”
Interesting……..

 

[eyenitnoy]

It's just a label.
The less you think about labels, the better.

 

[Miarocks]

Charging a fixed and agreed upon fee for a service or product. I would consider a physician who charges $5000 to do a procedure a professional…she cuts you open and spending on what she finds, it may take her 2 hours or 10 hours to address the issue. But regardless, they charge the same fee…$5000. I would NOT consider a CFP who charges a fee based on AUM or an attorney who charges by the hour not to be professionals. It does not mean they don’t do important and/or meaningful work, but their fee is not fixed.

I taught in public schools for many years, and I always regarded myself and my colleagues as professionals. (Well, some of them more so than others *wink*) I didn’t charge a fee, but rather I earned a salary. So I wouldn’t necessarily fit your definition of professional.

What about performance artists like musicians, dancers, visual artists? Are they professionals? I’d say yes. Same with athletes on a professional level.

 

[Bullwinkle]

What I was thinking of when I asked the question was sparked by comments like "want to live in a gated community with other professionals" or "seeking male professional for sex and long walks on the beach."

If that's what the question was, I think you can just answer the ad, suggest a beach, and see how things go. If they go well perhaps you are a professional!

 

[pb4uski]

I taught in public schools for many years, and I always regarded myself and my colleagues as professionals. (Well, some of them more so than others *wink*) I didn’t charge a fee, but rather I earned a salary. So I wouldn’t necessarily fit your definition of professional.

What about performance artists like musicians, dancers, visual artists? Are they professionals? I’d say yes. Same with athletes on a professional level.

I guess that I was thinking of this thread as referring to people engaged in a "profession" as being "professional".

Artists, musicians, dancers, athletes, etc technically are professionals if they are being paid to play... but I would not consider those to be a "profession".

Is teaching a profession? Perhaps, but not as widely recognized as a profession as doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, etc. I'm not sure how many people would think of teaching as a profession... I can see it either way.

Does it all make any difference... I think not.

 

[2177V]

I guess that I was thinking of this thread as referring to people engaged in a "profession" as being "professional".

Artists, musicians, dancers, athletes, etc technically are professionals if they are being paid to play... but I would not consider those to be a "profession".

Is teaching a profession? Perhaps, but not as widely recognized as a profession as doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, etc. I'm not sure how many people would think of teaching as a profession... I can see it either way.

Does it all make any difference... I think not.

It makes a difference if the discipline has consequences for incompetency: an incompetent doctor can cause death in a patient. An incompetent engineer can cause a building to collapse. An incompetent accountant can cause a business to lose money and force layoffs. Generally there a professional organization to screen out less qualified professionals by administrating a program to test the competency of that professional and issue a license. For an attorney it is a bar exam, for an engineer it is a PE exam, for a doctor it is 10 years of med school plus internship. Teaching is a grey area because the teacher has to follow the teaching plan. However how they teach is critical and the screening can only be done by an audit. That is, a school administrator sits in the class with the students and conducts an evaluation.

The evaluation can be subjective and biased whether there is a teaching shortage or not.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Most professionals live in nice homes, take care of them and do not have old washers and sofas in their front yards. Ok., we do like our neighborhood to be and stay presentable. We do pay for that privilege (HOA etc.).

When one refers to a Neighborhood or area that is populated with mostly professionals, that is what one means, generally looked after and presentable. Regardless of whether the folks that live there actually "Professionals". A chap that owns 2 car dealerships is not necessarily a professional by definition but could be an executive. A Retired Judge can be described as a professional, a Lawyer, Dentists, Doctors, Airline Pilots, Real Estate agent, Part Owner of a local distillery, Electronics Engineer, Retired CEO, Retired Radiologist, Retired furniture store owner, Retired Government Contractor, Bankruptcy Lawyer, Sales Director and a Bond Trader, Executives or Professionals? The chap I particularly like and whose company we enjoy is Rear Admiral Hutson who spoke at the 2016 DNC., is he an executive or a professional?

Are they Professionals or executives, you judge? They all live in our area. I am sure there are a lot of others as there are 600 homes in our HOA and we do not know all of them. Not that it matters at all really. I think using the description "Professional" is purely a figure of speech, and many here fall into the category.

Another of note is former resident and presidential candidate George Mcgovern (RIP).

Real estate agents tend to advertise the homes as being an "Executive Home" as opposed to a professional one.

 

[schellem]

When I was in the Army some 30+ years ago as a satellite ground station equipment repairman. We would occasionally get letters of commendation typically for nothing special, just doing our jobs, but I was amazed at how many times professional was used in these letters.
I didn't associate professional with so many of the folks I worked with in the Army especially when I had to call idiots 'sir'. I remember looking up the definition back then and it just meant you got paid to do what you do.

 

[friar1610]

I remember reading a long time ago that the only true professions were medicine (I suppose that would include dentistry), the law, teaching, the military and the ministry. My memory is somewhat fuzzy about the details but it had something to do with the fact these fields were more a way of life/a total commitment than just a job. Not saying I agree with this, just throwing out another viewpoint I ran across.

 

[ProGolferWannabe]

I taught in public schools for many years, and I always regarded myself and my colleagues as professionals. (Well, some of them more so than others *wink*) I didn’t charge a fee, but rather I earned a salary. So I wouldn’t necessarily fit your definition of professional.

What about performance artists like musicians, dancers, visual artists? Are they professionals? I’d say yes. Same with athletes on a professional level.

I’m sure there are shades of gray, but basically, yeah, if you are on salary, then I would consider that person a professional. If you made $70,000 per year regardless of the amount of time you taught, graded papers, tutored kids after class, that would meet my definition. A lawyer who works on an hourly basis as opposed to giving a fixed price for a service would not be. A lawyer who did work at an agreed upon price regardless of the time it took, would be. For me it is not the profession/job, but how they take their compensation. Clearly my view is in the minority here.