SS benefit taxes

[Irishgirlyc58]

You really don't want to go there. How many overnighters did you pull in your government job? How many 2-3 am days?

Dude- more than I can count. I worked in social services for 35 years. I was the director of a health and human services department when I retired.
This includes child welfare, psychiatric health facility (in patient), behavioral health outpatient, adult services, public guardian, homeless services, public health medical and behavioral health for county jail inmates, and public assistance. Just off the top of my head.
If I told you the scenarios that kept me working all night or until 2-3 am in the morning people would not be able to handle it and complain about the graphic content.

I think it’s you who doesn’t want to go there.

 

[isisdave]

The best way to evaluate this is to put the expected numbers into a recent tax program.

There are a lot of things that can affect the outcome, and you will have the opportunity to play with them and see what you might want to do about it.

For example, the present standard deduction is pretty large (like $28k); if you have basis in an IRA, not all the withdrawals are taxable, etc.

 

[NXR7]

A quick question. I am 62 and retired from the fire service. I draw a retirement check from the state that totals in the neighborhood 72K a year. I also draw on a 457 (the public version of the 401) which totals about 27K a year. I am married and the wife does not work. She is about to come into a modest inheritance (which I might rely on the slow the drawdown of my 457) but otherwise those two checks from my fire career are what we rely on.

I'm aware of the pro's and cons of early Social Security but the history of my family genes has me leaving earth early so by my calculations it might be best to take SS at my 1st opportunity.

I also do not work. So there are no 'wages' coming into our household. So what is my tax exposure from a SS check? How much

* after re-reading I thought my question might not be clear. I know that if you have a job while drawing Social Security your benefits are taxed (until you arrive at your full retirement age) and essentially what I need to know is if I start drawing SS would any of it be taxed if my only sources of income are other than 'work' and 'wages'

WHERE is the Social Security coming from? Did the fire department deduct Social Security taxes from your checks? Many states if not most states do not.

If you never worked a private sector job where Social Security taxes were deducted AND your state does not deduct Social Security taxes from your FD check you earned no Social Security check.

In Ohio the pension is provided by the Ohio Police and Fire Pension plan and no Social Security taxes are deducted so no Social Security check was earned by firefighters or cops and none is paid. Medicare taxes are deducted, but not SS.

If you paid Social Security taxes from another employment, as my wife did before she went full time fire, you will earn SS from that employment. But then the federal Windfall Elimination Provision law kicks in and takes away a large part of that SS check: https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/retirement/planner/wep.html

Public pensioners who did NOT pay SS taxes but who also earned Social Security credits as part of a non-public job need to talk to an SS office specialist. The usual employee in the SS office has no clue about WEP (or GPO for survivors) and can give you some very inaccurate estimates. Even worse, you need to convince the local office about why your public pension may adversely affect your SS check before they will finally let you talk to someone who has a clue.

My wife lost 50% of the SS check due to WEP that she otherwise would have received, simply due to also having earned a government pension where SS taxes were not paid.

So if she had stopped working her private sector job when she did and never gotten a public job or another private sector job her SS check would have been double what it currently is.

Sucks but just another example of screwing by Congress.

 

[oldtimer]

My wife lost 50% of the SS check due to WEP that she otherwise would have received, simply due to also having earned a government pension where SS taxes were not paid.

So if she had stopped working her private sector job when she did and never gotten a public job or another private sector job her SS check would have been double what it currently is.

But then she would not have her government pension.

 

[Time2]

All income is taxable unless exempt by law. SS became partially taxable in 1984, almost 40 years ago!

I was on Next Door today and someone was mad because they were on Medicare Paying their part B premium and still were taxed for medicare on there work earnings.
I tried to explain that Medicare tax was for Part A and the premium they were paying was for part B. They were having none of it and called it double taxation!

 

[pb4uski]

I was on Next Door today and someone was mad because they were on Medicare Paying their part B premium and still were taxed for medicare on there work earnings.
I tried to explain that Medicare tax was for Part A and the premium they were paying was for part B. They were having none of it and called it double taxation!

I become very concerned for the future of the democracy when I run into people like that.

 

[msanniee]

Firefighters receive a government pension. When looking at different SS options/payouts, you may want to see if your SS benefits are impacted by Windfall Provisions.

 

[SecondCor521]

 

[jimbee]

I was on Next Door today and someone was mad because they were on Medicare Paying their part B premium and still were taxed for medicare on there work earnings.
I tried to explain that Medicare tax was for Part A and the premium they were paying was for part B. They were having none of it and called it double taxation!

Like a lot of people on this forum...

 

[Koolau]

Dude- more than I can count. I worked in social services for 35 years. I was the director of a health and human services department when I retired.
This includes child welfare, psychiatric health facility (in patient), behavioral health outpatient, adult services, public guardian, homeless services, public health medical and behavioral health for county jail inmates, and public assistance. Just off the top of my head.
If I told you the scenarios that kept me working all night or until 2-3 am in the morning people would not be able to handle it and complain about the graphic content.

I think it’s you who doesn’t want to go there.

Heh, heh, what is it the lawyers always say? "Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to."

I think we should all try to walk a mile in each others shoes. It's very enlightening. I need to remember that as well.

 

[Gumby]

Heh, heh, what is it the lawyers always say? "Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to."

I think we should all try to walk a mile in each others shoes. It's very enlightening. I need to remember that as well.

Good idea, because then you're mile away and you've got his shoes.

 

[Rainbowdash]

Nobody gets hepatitis C by working too hard, which is how you made it sound like

 

[Gumby]

Nobody gets hepatitis C by working too hard, which is how you made it sound like

Let's not assume bad intent by other posters. I believe he said he worked on an ambulance. Accordingly, he probably came into contact with people who had hepatitis while on the ambulance. It's not the working hard that is the issue, it's the nature of the work (higher risk for infection).

 

[Montecfo]

It sounds like we agree that contributions should not be taxed because the contributions were after-tax money and not deductible... like contributory pension plan benefits or non-deductible IRA withdrawals or annuity benefits that are all only partially taxed... the growth is taxed but the contributions are not.

I'll use me as an example. At my FRA of 66/2, I'll get $2,983/month. If I die at an average age of 82 (crossover point), then I'll collect 190 months or $566,770. According to my SS statement, over my career I paid $128,088 in SS taxes. But a portion of those taxes were for life insurance and disability insurance benefits and about 70% relates to pension benefits, so $89,662 relates to retirement contributions.

$89,662/$566,770 is 15.8%... reasonably close to 15% that is excluded from taxation... so my contributions... money that I previously paid tax on, is excluded from taxation... as it should be. YMMV.

Yes. Saw your point and perhaps should not have made mine since they are really not different.

All the best!

 

[Montecfo]

Perhaps. I just got sick and tired of hearing people complain about SS being a raw deal, that they could have done better saving on their own (if they really had the fiscal discipline to save on their own, but most people don't), etc and wanted to see if it was at all true.

Hope you are not lumping me in there....

I did plan my retirement to not need SS, so there is that.

 

[pb4uski]

^^^ No, I didn't have anyone specific in mind, its just the "raw deal" or "I could have done better investing in stocks" arises occasionally, and the facts suggest that it isn't true... it isn't a raw deal and very few people really have the financial discipline to really save. SS is a bit of forced savings... not enough to retire but enough not to starve... as SS was designed to be.

When I was in my 20s and 30s I figured that SS would no longer exist when I retired so I wasn't counting on it.

 

[NXR7]

So if she had stopped working her private sector job when she did and never gotten a public job or another private sector job her SS check would have been double what it currently is.

But then she would not have her government pension.

I do not think you understood the point. Here's an analogy.

Oldtimer worked for three private employers. At retirement he/she believes they will earned three 401(k)'s, Social Security contributions from all three employees, and two pensions.

But in order to "save" Social Security one session of Congress decided to expand the the population affected by the Windfall Elimination Provision to include ALL people with multiple sources of retirement income.

Oldtimer discovers that the WEP change meant that the Social Security benefits schedule was now based on their total retirement income and since Oldtimer has so many retirement income sources, Oldtimer is presumed to be able to afford to collect less Social Security than previous generations.

Oldtimer writes letters, makes speeches, and otherwise complains loudly and widely that "I paid that money into Social Security and I should be allowed to collect the full benefit."

His union even jumps into the fray. Every year Oldtimer's Congressional representative introduces a bill to eliminate the WEP but it never makes it to a vote.

Oldtimer's estimated benefit as shown on the Social Security site is cut in half and the little footnote on the SS site says "This estimate does not take into account any impact caused by having other retirement accounts."

In summary, private sector employees are permitted to collect 100% of their Social Security earnings, 100% of their employer pensions, and 100% of their 401(k) and similar savings.

But public sector employees are penalized if their state did not take Social Security taxes out of their paycheck.

Rather than just counting those as $0 contribution years, a special penalty is applied that, in some cases, can result in the complete loss of all Social Security earnings if less than 20 years was spent in private sector employment. (My wife had 18 years of private sector employment.) 20 years and up is a sliding scale that saves some SS benefits but not the full amount until 30 years of private sector employment is attained.

 

[Time2]

I become very concerned for the future of the democracy when I run into people like that.

Gee! That's minor compared to, payoff my student loan for me, or, getting more than your working wages with unemployment and Covid payments, it's no wonder they don't want to go back to work. I don't blame them, it's like being retired with a government check.

 

[MichaelB]

.

 

[pb4uski]

.... Rather than just counting those as $0 contribution years, a special penalty is applied that, in some cases, can result in the complete loss of all Social Security earnings if less than 20 years was spent in private sector employment. (My wife had 18 years of private sector employment.) 20 years and up is a sliding scale that saves some SS benefits but not the full amount until 30 years of private sector employment is attained.

I haven't paid much attention to WEP since it doesn't apply to me but I think I see the logic now. If you compare someone who worked 35 years in the private sector and paid SS taxes for 35 years vs someone who worked 10 years in the private sector followed by 25 years in the public sector and didn't pay SS taxes for those 25 years but had a public pension. Let's say that they had identical earnings.

The SS bend points and PIA calculation implicitly assume that one is in the system their entire career and pays SS taxes their entire career. I took my PIA calculation that was based on my best 35 years of earnings and adjusted it to assume that after graduating from college I worked 10 full years in the private sector and then had no SS earnings after that (moved to public sector and paid no SS taxes).

The SS taxes paid would only be 12.4% of what I really paid, but my SS PIA would be 43% of what my PIA really is... so I suppose that the WEP seeks to adjust SS benefits for that inequity.

 

[PatrickA5]

^^^ No, I didn't have anyone specific in mind, its just the "raw deal" or "I could have done better investing in stocks" arises occasionally, and the facts suggest that it isn't true... it isn't a raw deal and very few people really have the financial discipline to really save. SS is a bit of forced savings... not enough to retire but enough not to starve... as SS was designed to be.
.

+1

I remember the big push to privatize a part of SS back in the mid-2000s. I always thought that would be a HUGE mistake as a very large percentage of the population would squander the money. The financial crisis of 2008 seemed to make that nonsense go away. I'm not even sure if I would end up better off investing my SS, and I keep up with this stuff!

 

[CRLLS]

I haven't paid much attention to WEP since it doesn't apply to me but I think I see the logic now. ........ so I suppose that the WEP seeks to adjust SS benefits for that inequity.

Exactly! Since SS is not a bank account or investment account holding your money, it is a PAYG retirement system largely biased toward lower income earners.

Consider another case where one person worked 10 years under SS and then 35 years outside of SS. Under some people's idea of fair, that person would get 35 years of pension plus 10 years' benefits for SS. A 2nd person worked 45 years under SS. Both the 2nd guy and his employer paid into SS for 45 years, only the top 35 years get counted toward his retirement benefit. Assuming ever increasing incomes for both people, why should the 1st guy expect to get anything from his 1st 10 years of employment where the 2nd guy doesn't? IMO the 1st is lucky he gets anything out of SS since the other guy doesn't get anything for his first 10 years.

No changing the rules though. Not by us. The rules do change constantly though. Who knows what might be in 10 years? Certainly not me.

 

[jollystomper]

I’m pretty sure people here who have pension envy could have opted to work for a government agency that provides pensions just like anyone else. The choice was yours.
Then you could’ve complained about the year end bonuses that you never received.
And I’m sure many other benefits working in the private sector as opposed to the public sector.

That is exactly what one of my good friends and co-workers did, but with no complaints .

He is 10 years younger than me, and when Megacorp changed the rules I was old enough to keep my pension, but he was moved to the cash balance plan. The same year I retired, he left Megacorp to join a government agency (one that had been a client he worked with a lot, and they recruited him). His intention is to work there at least 10 years to qualify for the pension.

He does not complain about what he gave up (salary level and advancement, work flexibility, awards, quarterly bonuses, business travel that could be leveraged into vacations, various travel perks, etc.). He and wife planned for this for a few years. He did get the additional perks of a better health plan and regular 9-to-5 work. He is halfway to his goal and everything has worked out so far.

 

[Walt34]

You really don't want to go there. How many overnighters did you pull in your government job? How many 2-3 am days?

Again, more than you can count.

I worked rotating shift work for eighteen years. Shifts rotated every week. So lots of overnighters, lots of 2-3 AM days. That was routine, expected, and I knew it going in the day I applied for the job.

A BIL works for a government agency, in building maintenance on the heating plant for a large campus of buildings. All of his shifts are overnighters.

Don't think for an instant that all government workers work daytime 9-5 with weekends and holidays off. Those are only the ones you see. I guess the rest are invisible.

 

[imnontrad]

I am an admin for a SS education facebook group.

1. Did you pay into SS also while a firefighter or would you be subject to the WEP/GPO reduction of your SS benefit?
2. Does your wife have a lower SS benefit? On this point alone, it would be best to delay SS as long as possible. Most likely your wife will outlive you and if you delay, it will mean that she will have more money after you die (surviving spouse benefit equal to yours). That money may be needed since she would not have a spouse to help her and would need to hire others, or move into assisted living.

And yes, because of your taxable income, 85% of your SS benefit will be subject to income taxes - at whatever your tax bracket is.