New Plan - Feedback Welcome!

[GoodSense]

Sorry I haven't been posting much lately. I still read the board everyday, but had to curb my time spent on the Internet to actually get some things done.

Recently I have been thinking about law school. I would like to get your feedback as to whether it makes sense.

Background: I just turned 30, married, no kids (and no plan for kids for the next 5 years). I currently work at a job that I am marginally satisfied with. Some days it's so bad that I have to come to this board for a little hope. I have been in the exact same job for 7+ years, and am not paid very much considering my experience and a master's degree. I have received no promotion despite repeatedly asking for it. My boss compliments my work all the time but is not interested in my career development. I felt that I was in a mostly comfortable yet dead-end job, and the only way out was to save hard and ER -- in about 12 years according to my spreadsheet. (Yes, you guessed it, I work for the government)

Lately, law school has emerged as a possibility. Law has always interested me, and I would probably be in a sub-area that I'm already familiar with (property and real estate).

I will apply for scholarships and probably won't do it without a tuition waiver. Even with tuition paid, it will still set my finances back quite a bit, because I will not be making nearly anything. The flip side of that is that I can tolerate the thought of retiring later if I'm doing something I enjoy.

Of course there is also the added benefit of a higher income after graduation, I assume, but I'm not counting so much on that.

On a side note, DH works for himself and his income may fluctuate. But even in the worst case scenario, I feel that our current saving and investment (about $100K) will be able to carry us through the next 3 years.

If I do nothing, I can stay in my golden handcuffs for another 12 years and call it quits. If I make a leap of faith, I could be more challenged but potentially more fulfilled in my job. It may delay my ER date by a few years, but I have really no idea because I don't know what kind of job I'll have with a law degree.

What do you think? Am I totally out of my mind?

 

[chinaco]

You did not comment on your educational background and experience. Do you have skills that are easily transferable to private industry?


For the option of law school, consider the opportunity cost of switching careers and the break even point. Bottom line, if you are considering investing in yourself, you are likely to be doing it for a reason. More Money! Job satisfaction is important... but assuming you are not mistreated, there is a cost/benefit aspect to consider.


Plus do more research just to ensure it is what you really want to do before you jump.

 

[Brat]

The WSJ Law blog has a thread about law school grads finding jobs, particularly those from 2nd tier schools.

Frankly, I wouldn't do it.

Your boss isn't invested in your career development because if you left s/he would need to fill your position. In a tight labor market that is not a happy prospect. The only person invested in your development is you.

In what series is your position?

 

[DangerMouse]

I would vote for staying where you are and trying to get out in 12 years. 42 is not that old to be retired.

Don't wait for your boss to drive your career opportunties or development take full responsbility for making it happen yourself.

I just wouldn't risk the lost wages, the stress of studying for something that may not offer you anything better.

 

[Meadbh]

I think you should research it well, and if law school really interests you, go for it. 12 years in your present job will cause brain rot and you will retire grumpy. 30 is very young to give up on any chance of a satisfying career.

 

[GoodSense]

My current work is for the city government in zoning enforcement. It's not easily transferable to the private sector. I feel that it is very suppressive, since all we do is to regulate or turn down otherwise legitimate requests because they can't meet some trivial standard. If I let it affect me too much, then I become depressed. Often I question why I'm doing it. Meadbh was right--my brain is already rotting.

Thanks for all the advice! I will check out more online info and meet with some lawyers, maybe to job-shadow for a day. I just read the WSJ article on 2nd tier school grads. Good article and nice warning for future students! I certainly do not look forward to $100K of student loans.

 

[chinaco]

My current work is for the city government in zoning enforcement. It's not easily transferable to the private sector. I feel that it is very suppressive, since all we do is to regulate or turn down otherwise legitimate requests because they can't meet some trivial standard. If I let it affect me too much, then I become depressed. Often I question why I'm doing it. Meadbh was right--my brain is already rotting.

Thanks for all the advice! I will check out more online info and meet with some lawyers, maybe to job-shadow for a day. I just read the WSJ article on 2nd tier school grads. Good article and nice warning for future students! I certainly do not look forward to $100K of student loans.

We hired a young guy last year that worked for city government. For what he was doing (his job which was transferable) he was woefully underpaid. He had a Master's, was recognized by his boss as being very competent, etc. Part of the problem was that the city will always under pay. The other part was that people tend to slowly move up in those jobs (i.e., older) and he was a bit young (i.e., it worked against him).

Anyway, we gave him the max increase that we could give (he got a very healthy raise)... and he is still low enough that it will take us several years to catch his salary up to where it should be. (note: many HR depts have rules that cap the raises a person can get during an event... new hire, promotion, raise).

IMHO - If I were you, I would consider moving to private industry. Change careers in that way. Pick a career that can leverage your current educational background and go. My opinion is to move into a career that has a lot of growing opportunity. You have nothing to lose by putting your resume out there.

I do not know anything about where you live... but if you are in a large metro area, you can probably do much better on salary. If you are in a small town... consider relocating to a nearby large city

Another thought: City governments sometimes have a benefit of paying for education at university and colleges. Can you go yo night school and have the city pay? If so, research and pick something and attend night school.

 

[Gumby]

Finally, a topic on which I feel qualified to comment.

Goodsense: 18 years ago, I found myself in almost the same position that you are in. I was thirty, married with no kids, working as an engineer. It was a steady job. The pay was decent but not great, although I was almost topped out as far as pay for that position. I had always had an interest in law and decided that I would quit and go to law school.

I learned a few things that the law school admissions office will never tell you. The primary one is that it is a sad but hidden fact that many, many people do not even work as a lawyer after having gone through school. And those that do work as lawyers generally do not make as much as you might expect. Someone referred to the WSJ article this past week. You should definitely read it. Law firms are a) very status conscious and b) tend to let the law schools screen their prospective employees for them. Accordingly, for you to score the big bucks, you generally need to have attended a top law school. Many firms will not interview at schools outside a very narrow range at the top. Second, you need to do very well in school, even in a top law school. Obviously, the higher ranked the school, the deeper into the class the top firms will reach. If you attend a middle ranked school, you will need to be at the very top of your class and on the law review to have a chance.

As you know, law school is expensive. Many, if not most law schools now exceed $30k per year. With your savings and a working husband, you will probably survive economically, especially if you are able to find work as a summer associate. The young wife and I started in roughly the same economic position as you. At the completion of law school three years later, our savings were gone, but I had no student debt.

But even if you can get through school without incurring debt, there is still a steep economic cost to be paid. When you combine the loss of savings spent on tuition with the fact that you will have only minor income for three years, it will take you many, many years to break even economically. I ran a spreadsheet that compared outcomes and found that it took me more than 12 years after law school graduation to break even (and that was a conservative estimate, as I assumed I would never have received another raise as an engineer). If I had stayed where I was, I would probably already be retired, instead of a few years away.

I have generally enjoyed my career as a lawyer (I am in a large NYC firm). But I must tell you that it is not like they show on TV. Most of my time is spent in the office on the computer and the telephone. It is a welcome respite when I actually get to go to court. Many lawyers, particularly real estate lawyers, never go to court. I don't think I could survive this if I didn't make an occasional appearance. And another sad fact is that this is often a zero sum game; in order for me to succeed at my job and prosper, I must make some other lawyer fail at her job. That dynamic means that I deal every day with aggressive and paranoid people, who are economically incentivized to act that way. I have noted many changes in my profession over the last 15 years, and I think it has gotten more difficult for young lawyers than when I started. The economic pressures on firms means that we push the new associates very, very hard. Their hours are long and much of what they do is drudge work.

In summary, knowing what I know now, if I were you, I would think long and hard about whether there might be some other way to change your employment position so that you are intellectually challenged and rewarded appropriately.

That said, I do not regret that I went to law school. It was intellectually stimulating and challenging. And after having worked for 8 years, it was like a three-year vacation. But the reality is that was simply taking three years of my retirement early.

Best wishes,

Gumby

 

[Miss_Lala]

The WSJ Law blog has a thread about law school grads finding jobs, particularly those from 2nd tier schools.

Frankly, I wouldn't do it.

Your boss isn't invested in your career development because if you left s/he would need to fill your position. In a tight labor market that is not a happy prospect. The only person invested in your development is you.

In what series is your position?

Hard Case: Job Market Wanes for U.S. Lawyers - WSJ.com

For anybody else interested

 

[Rustic23]

I worked 20 years for government. For me it was a job I really enjoyed Air Force Pilot. So how does this relate to you. When I retired from the Air Force the check they send me each month gave me options to do what ever I wanted. While not totally FI I could take the jobs I liked. Age 42 is not to old to get a law degree, and if you are FI at time your vocation becomes your advocation.

 

[bots2019]

Another thing to consider is that lawyers tend to work a whole lot more hours than gov't workers. You may end up liking the work better, but ~40 hrs definitely beats ~60 in my book.

 

[Gumby]

Good point Bots. I leave home at 6:30 am and return at 8:30 pm -- on a good day. And the young associates at my firm work even longer.

 

[Miss_Lala]

DH is a young associate at a DC law firm, where the hours are less demanding than the firms in New York. He typically leaves at 8:15 and comes home at 7:00, with a 30 minute commute each way. Not too bad for a lawyer.

 

[lucija]

OK… I hate to chime in without an introduction, but here’s my .02 anyway.

You have mentioned that you may have kids in 5 yrs or so… If kids are definitely in your future, I think you should add one more consideration to your list – what type of job you want to hold 4-8 years from now?

I have 2 small kids at home, and from personal (working parent, not lawyer) experience, I can tell you that being a rookie associate while trying to get pregnant of with an infant at home would be the last place I would want to be. Try to envision this new law career (think working 60-100 hrs per week) while having morning sickness, trying to take a decent maternity leave or having to stay home with a sick child. Does it still look like a dream?

You should follow your heart, but if you do not like current job, perhaps a simple job change would solve all of your problems.

 

[cletis]

My wife is a secretary for a law firm and she's watched several young lawyers come and go. The things I've noticed is that after law school they would get hired by her law firm with a yearly salary and that's it. They don't get part of any big settlements until they make partner which takes a long time. In the beginning years they are basically paralegals and do all the crap work for the partners. It takes quite a few years before they are actually reaping the benefits. Cletis

 

[MasterBlaster]

In the beginning years they are basically paralegals and do all the crap work for the partners. It takes quite a few years before they are actually reaping the benefits.

That situation where the young-uns do basic tasks isn't unique to the Law profession. Pretty much every career will start you out slow and then gradually add responsibility. They then watch that you can indeed handle it. The monetary compensation usually follows the responsibility.

That's just the way it is.

 

[ylm23]

As a relatively recent law school grad - and someone who switched careers to do it - i have to caution you not to do this unless you are absolutely sure you want to be a lawyer, that you love the things a lawyer does and there is no other way to do what you want to do without a law degree. for example, there is a lot within the world of real estate and property management that you can do without a law degree, so if you plan to stay in that field anyway, you don't need the degree.

i don't regret my degree and if i were still in the USA i would be practicing law (not for 6 figures though!) but you need to know all the things the law school recruiters will not tell you.

 

[jIMOh]

I would vote for staying where you are and trying to get out in 12 years. 42 is not that old to be retired.

Don't wait for your boss to drive your career opportunties or development take full responsbility for making it happen yourself.

I just wouldn't risk the lost wages, the stress of studying for something that may not offer you anything better.

12 years is "not long", and you could probably apply for different government jobs in the meantime.

In year 9 or 10, look to do law school part time, then retire first time at 42 and possibly do legal work part time in retirement.

 

[MasterBlaster]

As a relatively recent law school grad - and someone who switched careers to do it - i have to caution you not to do this unless you are absolutely sure you want to be a lawyer, that you love the things a lawyer does

<Sorry Martha if this is too opinionated, it's nothing personal>

So here is my observation. Every lawyer that I have ever met hates their job and their life. They all have this mentality that they have to hunker down now, feel the pain, and make as much money as possible so that they can then retire and only then enjoy life. They often get caught up in this work/consume upscale-lifestyle trap. Maybe my observation is full of beans. I just have met too many discontented lawyers.

 

[GoodSense]

Wow! Lots of good advice

...and many aspects I have not fully thought through. I definitely need a change to save my sanity. What form it takes is the question. I just feel that without going to school again, it would be hard to qualify for any professional job that is not currently in my field, unless I start all over again from data entry.

I was also a realtor for 3 years. It was a good experience but I don't think I could do it full time for the emotional drains.

Lots to think about...

 

[terminator]

I used to practice in a large firm and I concur with most what Gumby said.

Economically, with a 12 year time frame right now, you will likely break even sometime around age 42.

I'd say don't do it unless you have a burning desire to practice law (or otherwise use the law degree). It's not much different than any other doctorate -- doctoral degrees are only worth pursuing if you are very interested in the subject (IMHO). There are a lot of other ways to find new careers that don't involve three years of (potentially) expensive and (arguably) difficult schooling.

And others have also mentioned that you're probably looking at 50-60 hour workweeks (or more if you want the big bucks), so the increased pay doesn't really come out to that much more per hour in the end.

For a transfer of skills without law school, have you considered becoming a paralegal working on zoning matters? They can make good money and keep better hours than attorneys.

 

[SecondCor521]

I just feel that without going to school again, it would be hard to qualify for any professional job that is not currently in my field, unless I start all over again from data entry.

I sorta kinda did what you're thinking about except I was an engineer who got an MBA and am now back doing engineering. If I had to do it over again, I would go find jobs I was interested in doing, and try to get one of them without the degree. If I kept hearing, "We'd love to hire you except we need someone with an MBA" as a constant refrain THEN I'd go get the degree. As it stands now, I may go get a non-engineering job and my MBA will of course be on my resume, but it may very well be that that new job didn't require the degree.

My .02

2Cor521

 

[Lusitan]

Many (most?) people go to law school as a sort of "default option" because:

(a) their undergraduate degree provides them with no marketable skills, or

(b) because they have no idea "what they want to do when they grow up" and being a lawyer seems kinda cool, or

(c) because they are pressured by their parents to get an advanced degree (any advanced degree), or

(d) they want to continue the student life for 3 more years and delay the nasty, brutish real world as long as possible, and law school seems like a respectable way to do that.

So by default, you have a system primed to result in many unhappy people once reality sets in after graduation. I think that's reason #1 why so many attorneys are miserable. But, of course, there are additional reasons (the crappy work/life balance and general a--hole personality types of so many lawyers are other big reasons).

It doesn't sound like you fall into any of the above categories, but it does sound like you need to give it some more thought.

I'm a recent law school graduate. I started law school at 27 and worked my way through by going to school at night (4 years instead of 3). I didn't sacrifice anything in my career, didn't take on any substantial financial burden to pay for law school (went to a "second tier" school ranked lower than some of the top schools I got into, but one that gave me substantial scholarship money), and continued to work toward my FIRE goals while in school.

The biggest sacrifice I made was in time and effort. I worked hard in school to be near the top of my class - and yeah did the law review thing - and was fortunate enough to get a job at a big law firm that pays big law salaries.

In retrospect, I'm glad I went to law school and I think getting my JD was a positive career advancement move whether I'm practicing law or not. But the work/life balance sucks in most big law firms, and there are many, many miserable lawyers out there. I'm pretty satisfied because the higher salary from just my first year of work as an attorney allowed me to more than recoup my financial investment, so I know I can leave at any time now and I won't be worse off for it.

But frankly, if I had paid full tuition at a top school, and/or had sacrificed 3 years of earning power to go to law school, I would be miserable. It's hard enough starting any new career when you're 31 (in your case it'd be 34) years old and your peers are all 25, but especially law, where it's so competitive and everyone expects you to devote your entire life to work. Not to mention that in your 30s you'll likely start to think of raising a family and will be less willing to be a slave.

If you're unsure whether you really want to work as an attorney but you really think it's something you want to do, then IMO the trick is to hedge your bets and go back to school in a way that will allow you to get the degree and the opportunities it might offer you, while at the same time continuing to work toward FIRE and avoiding getting chained down by law school debt. (Especially given your age and obvious desire to FIRE.)

The most straightforward way I found to do that was to sacrifice my nights/weekends for a few years. It sucked, but I did (mostly) enjoy learning about the law and I'm proud and happy I did it.

But I'm also glad that I'm on track for FIRE just the same as I would have been without law school, because frankly, although I'm not lazy, working because I have to work just sucks, no matter the job.

Feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Brat]

I would look around at City Planning departments to see if there is a job you wish you had. Find out what it takes to do that job and consider how you could get there.

As I look around at Cities today it seems to me that water and sewerage management will be major issues. There are planning, as well as engineering and plant operations elements in those departments.

The best thing you can do for your mental health is to follow the advice my Mother gave me: Every job can be awful at times, there are always trade-offs. If the job is more bad than rewarding the process of plotting your exit makes the day-to-day bearable.

 

[SLC Tortfeasor]

I've been a lawyer for over five years now. It's not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be, but I have to admit that's not exactly saying much. There are trade-offs with every job. The law just happens to come with some very significant negatives. I won't bother listing all the positives and negatives for you, as I'm sure you can do that yourself.

For me the law has been great. I was near the top of my class at a very inexpensive law school near the bottom of the first tier. I got lots of great job offers. I work pretty much 9-6 (though admittedly my billables are a little too low this year), and make a six-figure salary as a civil litigator. I feel my job is pretty secure, and I like my firm, my practice areas, and my fellow lawyers. The worst thing about being a civil litigator is too much of the work requires me to be stressed out about very tedious, uninteresting minutae. Sometimes I'm stressed about truly significant things, but if you're a lawyer, you need to be able to handle being stressed about really boring nitpicky details that could conceivably be very important, but almost certainly will not be important.

In my experience, just about anybody can be a lawyer. But doing well in law school and passing the bar exam are only the beginning of a very difficult and time consuming career. It really takes a lot of very hard work to be a successful lawyer. It's a rewarding career, but there are easier ways to make a living if you're just looking for a well-paying job.

Anyway, that's my take on it. Good luck.