Walked out on my 45th birthday

not sure why the big concern. "Frugal" is relative to how much you have. In this guy's case, I agree... $350K a year is very frugal.

Nobody is criticizing the spending. Just curious what $29000 per month in spending buys these days. It is probably 5 to 10 times what the typical poster on the board spends and I'm just curious does it buy a nicer car, house, vacations, education, etc.

Clearly the spending level should be easily supportable from the stated net worth of the OP assuming reasonable rates of return from investments.
 
Just curious what $29000 per month in spending buys these days. It is probably 5 to 10 times what the typical poster on the board spends and I'm just curious does it buy a nicer car, house, vacations, education, etc.
No sweat. You're not the only one with such questions. You can satisfy your curiousity by reading the Richistan: A Journey Through the American Wealth Boom and the Lives of the New Rich
(2007), by Robert Frank.

On a larger scale, see also All the Money in the World: How the Forbes 400 Make - and Spend - Their Fortunes (2007), by Peter Bernstein and Annalyn Swan. By the billionaire standards described in the latter work, the OP is quite correct: he is far from rich.

Happy reading! ;)
 
how we live does not come across to them as unusual

I think this is the problem. It may be difficult for them to internalize that it is very unusual to be able to spend at a top 1% level without working.

All the CEOs and people who've made over $100m I know personally have come from privileged backgrounds, so growing up rich helps rather than hurt people's success in my experience. However, these people also all had workaholic parents, so it seems likely to me that a combination of seeing wealth as normal, and seeing hard work as normal in their childhood is what drove those people to succeed. I've never known someone who has grown up "idle rich," but the stereotype is not good.

Sorry I don't have any good advice for you, but I think you are right to be concerned.
 
Could you give us a summary budget for your $350K annual spending? I'm just trying to reconcile that amount to your definition of "frugal."

I have a feeling I might regret this, but here goes:

Primary House P & I 47,740
Primary House Other 61,454
Secondary House P & I 58,320
Secondary House Other 31,622
Travel 28,585
Miscellaneous, Clothing, Gifts 28,031
Food, Entertainment 24,886
Children 23,979
Medical 17,599
Charity 11,744
Insurance 8,117
Auto 7,673
349,750

This is a two-year average between 2007 actual and 2008 plan.

A fair amount is payments for mortgages, which I keep for various reasons even though it costs about $3k per year after taxes in negative carry versus the intermediate-term bonds I would sell to retire them.

Lest you think the charity number is low, this is in addition to about $60k in annual contributions from a private foundation we funded that is outside our net worth. The number here is for things like church, small requests, etc. where we choose to give personally.

The auto expenses are things like gas, maintenance. They (two) are five years old and paid for.

We live in the Chicago area, which I consider middle-high on the cost spectrum.

The only taxes included here are property taxes on the houses.
 
I have not read everything in detail, but there should be nothing to regret - you are living on about 2% SWR, so you are LBYM. You just have more means than most.

I'm not sure what is in the mindset of some people here. After building up a substantial net worth, what is wrong with spending 2%? Nothing, in my book.

BTW, the richest person I know came from a very humble background - just another data point. He also lives LBYM, but he can fill a 6 car garage with classics on his means!

That said, I still think you may need to address a gap between what your children are accustom to having and what they will be able to afford on the money they earn.

-ERD50
 
So, $200,000 or so on housing expenses, and the rest on "other". Definitely more than I spend, but definitely not out of line w/ your net worth and ability to spend.
 
Well, I don't see anything crazy.

About 56% of your expenses relate to housing. That's a lot, but you can easily afford the actual amount. I agree that Chicago can be a relatively expensive place to live. Personally, I would retire the mortgages, but you have your reasons for not doing so.

$28,585 for travel seems like a good idea. If one has the means, travel is always worth spending money on.

I assume that the $23,979 allocated to your children represents private school tuition. There's nothing wrong with that. The right school will not only provide an excellent basic education, but will teach them that their privileged background carries with it a responsibility to excel and contribute to society (Luke 12:48: "To whom much is given, much is expected").

I don't think that anyone else has the right to pass judgment on your charitable contributions. Can you do more? Sure; but that is a given for 99% of the population.

Your auto expenses are (much) more than I would have expected; but such costs are what they are. Presumably you have fancy cars that burn premium gasoline and require lots of maintenance. If not, you may be able to save some money by shopping around. On the other hand, you don't need to squeeze every last nickel so if you are happy where you are, why waste time looking for a better deal?
 
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No sweat. You're not the only one with such questions. You can satisfy your curiousity by reading the Richistan: A Journey Through the American Wealth Boom and the Lives of the New Rich (2007), by Robert Frank.

On a larger scale, see also All the Money in the World: How the Forbes 400 Make - and Spend - Their Fortunes (2007), by Peter Bernstein and Annalyn Swan. By the billionaire standards described in the latter work, the OP is quite correct: he is far from rich.

Happy reading! ;)

I'm not interested in the super-wealthy. I've read the Richistan book you recommend - from what I recall most of the subjects described in the book had significantly higher net worths than OP and significantly higher expenses. And the multibillionaires in the Forbes 400 are drastically different than the OP.

I mean, $350,000/yr in expenditures is a lot, but it probably isn't a lot higher than what a good portion of my former classmates are currently spending. It's just that most of them probably spend every penny they get and then some and have minimal net worths, unlike the OP.
 
Knowing that $350,000 is spending net of taxes, if the $14 million net worth were mine to manage, I would make sure that the taxes on my investment earnings plus my $350k in other expenses don't exceed 4% of net worth by too much.

But from OP's post it seems that is not his concern. His concern seems to be what effect will appearing to be "idle" yet continuing to live well have on his children, specifically the effect on their work ethic and entitlement mentality to daddy's money and the lifestyle they grew accustomed to growing up. Valid concern IMHO.

Question for 45th Birthday: Do you come from a more modest family background or from wealth? If your kids have seen how less wealthy family/friends live, then they may have a better feel for how "the other half" live (more like the lower 99% of folks, but who's counting right?).
 
...
Primary House P & I 47,740
Primary House Other 61,454
Secondary House P & I 58,320
Secondary House Other 31,622
Travel 28,585
Miscellaneous, Clothing, Gifts 28,031
Food, Entertainment 24,886
Children 23,979
Medical 17,599
Charity 11,744
Insurance 8,117
Auto 7,673
349,750

This is a two-year average between 2007 actual and 2008 plan...
The only taxes included here are property taxes on the houses.

I figured your travel and entertainment may have been high, but now I see that the houses account for over half of your budget.

Your budget is actually higher than you think since I always consider income taxes as part of a budget, but I'm sure you are still in good shape even factoring in your income taxes which are probably in the $100K to $200K range.
 
Doesn't look out of line to me either. I think most families spend more as a pct of net worth than he does. I think I need to re-look at the tax (and other) ramifications of mortgages if he can carry his for only $3k more per year than the income lost by retiring them.
 
Thanks for your opinions and for not being judgemental. It is interesting to hear what people think. To answer some things:

The spending on children is not private school tuition. It is for camp and activities; some school expenses such as books.

The auto expense is mostly fuel, with an extended warranty purchase skewing the numbers somewhat.

Relating to taxes and investment earnings, since I FIRE'd myself (correct terminology?) almost exactly two years ago, my portfolio is up 6.9% net of spending and taxes.

I come from a very modest background. I worked from the time I was in the fifth grade and paid for the vast majority of higher education myself. My dad never made more than $30,000 in one year. But my kids haven't been around my family that much, although a few siblings have also done well financially.
 
On the opposite side of the spectrum from 45th, there's me: I expect to spend $16k in 2008 (that's all expenses). No wife, no kids, no mortgage, no fancy cars, no second homes, no exotic vacations, low taxable income, etc. Nevertheless, I consider myself immensely 'wealthy' and very fortunate. I'm finally pursuing my own interests and the greater good rather than the interests of the war-mongers/war-profiteers I formerly served. I hope that American society holds together for at least a few more years!
 
Really appreciate your post and the replies

For numerous reasons, I have found this post and the replies very helpful. 45th ... since you have been willing to share, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing some high lvl facts about how you have invested your money outside of real-estate. While my situation is different in $, it is also very similar in many ways. However, I find it hard to get comfortable that my spouse and I will not out live our money despite the relatively low withdrawl rate. Appreciate the help!
 
45, I commend you on your concern for the values that maybe passed on to your children! Only an EXCEPTIONAL Father would have such noble hopes for his children.

Although, I do not have children (yet), I was struck by the brilliant way that John and Cettie Rockefeller dealt with this issue with their children. The oil baron taught his children a mantra, "with opportunity comes responsibility". Over 100 years later, David Rockefeller, his grandson, emphasizes the saying in his recent book.

One of the main tools John used to teach his children about money was the budget. He and his wife instilled discipline by letting each child make a budget of what they spent during the month. He would also encourage them to find ways to save money in their budget. It was a simple exercise, but as the children grew you see how it played a MAJOR role in giving them a respect for the value of money.

The book is TITAN by Ron Chernow. It may inspire some ideas.
 
Sorry I didn't post sooner, but I was away.

Before I list the portfolio, I'll tell you my strategy. I do most of this myself, with the help of a traditional full-service broker who is paid low, negotiated commission rates (not as low as discount brokerage companies would charge, but I trust him and he is good). I try to keep things simple.

Given the length of time I expect to need to rely on these funds, I did not invest it all in the market when I received the bulk of it. I was too concerned about the risk of a 20%+ decline right off the bat followed by a prolonged flat period, forcing me to draw down depreciated assets.

I have written a fair amount of put options at levels where I wanted to buy. Some have gotten filled, and others expired. But the portfolio started to get bought in and I earned the option premiums. I also put in buy orders below (sometimes well below) the market. On some of the really bad days in the market, these got filled.

Overall, I have stayed away from individual stocks and buy larger, established ETF's. The ability to do market orders and write options as well as the tax efficiency are appealing. I'm not big on commodities (I feel I missed the best part of the runup, we might be in bubble territory, and there aren't many easy, tax-efficient ways to own them. I also don't own REIT's (already have enough RE exposure) or other stuff. I have plenty of exposure to energy, financials, tech, etc., but not huge amounts of small cap and mid cap right now because I think the market isn't going to be kind to these companies for awhile. I have some foreign, but not much developing countries right now because I think in the next few years there will be an opportunity to buy these at better levels.

I started off keeping all the uninvested cash in a very safe, high-yielding money-market-type account and then shifted all of this to muni bonds when short rates started falling and munis became so attractive.

Eventually, I plan to be 80-90% exposed to equities, with that level coming down, but perhaps 20 years from now.

One of the reasons I keep the mortgages is to have the ability to go "all in" if there is a major, relatively sudden, significant move down in the market. These opportunities don't happen often, but they almost always result in very attractive returns.

So it breaks down as follows:

50% ETF's: Large holdings of EFA, RSP, VTI, IVW
35% Munis: Mostly Vanguard High Yield
15% Misc: Includes Fidelity IRA's from working days (mostly Leveraged Company Stock Fund), a previous employer's stock (low tax basis), a 529 plan, and some other stuff from before I was FIRE'd.

As far as the comfort factor, I spent a long time before I decided to sell the company figuring out what amount of money I would need to support my spending for a prolonged period. I didn't know about FIRECALC, but I relied heavily on Fidelity's retirement planning tools, which include an excellent Monte Carlo simulation of future returns, and a little as a check on something called ESPlanner, which is robust but not very user-friendly.
 
Thx 45th. Our approaches are quite similar. Excluding real estate, my mix is roughly 50/50 equities/fi and I also plan to work my way towards 80%+ equities over time. The calculators all say I'm safe but 50-60 years of retirement (assuming we live that long) is a bit scary. That said, we have decided to move ahead with ER. Unless something changes, we will be joining you in roughly one year. Thx again
 
We have discussed it with them, and they say they know our situation is unusual, but I'm not sure they are really old enough to truly understand. My fear is that this might have a negative impact on them as they become adults.
Hi 45th,

You might avoid the problem by setting up a small office outside your home. You can head there to take care of your investments, pay home bills, read some news, etc. Set your hours as you please.

That way, the kids see their father going to an office, and your professional "identity" is solidified as an investor.
 
A nice idea, but perhaps a touch idealistic. I have yet to meet a wealthy person who hasn't erected all sorts of barriers (both physical and mental) to contact with the 'lower classes'. Many wealthy folks do, however, leave large sums of money to charitable organizations they hope will make a positive impact on the world (especially if their children don't appear destined for such a role).


Not unrealistic at all. While not super wealthy, my ex and I sent our kids to do volunteer work in the summer which they really enjoyed a lot.
I highly recommend Landmark Volunteers. Volunteer work for teens - Landmark Volunteers.

Also, study abroad in third world countries is realistic for well to do kids, and it has a major impact on their outlook on life.
 
... even factoring in your income taxes which are probably in the $100K to $200K range.
I'm late to this thread, but want to state that one could have virtually no income taxes on $350K of annual unearned income. We saw a hint of this already with the mention of tax-exempt bond funds. Not only is "return of capital" tax-free, but long-term capital gains are taxed at only 15%. If taxable income is low enough, then our OP would even qualify for the child tax credit.

Example: Sell ETFs for $350K that have a cost basis of $300K and you pay no taxes.

Back on topic .... Thanks for starting this thread. We live in a relatively wealthy area. We make no pretense that we are not rich, however we are below average among our children's peers. Despite being multimillionaires ourselves, the parents of our daughter's friend were asking her how we could afford to pay for college for her. I guess it is all relative. :)
 
Despite being multimillionaires ourselves, the parents of our daughter's friend were asking her how we could afford to pay for college for her. I guess it is all relative. :)
LBYM works at every level of income. The ones that don't marvel at the ones that do....
 
Despite being multimillionaires ourselves, the parents of our daughter's friend were asking her how we could afford to pay for college for her. I guess it is all relative. :)
Well, it depends on how "multi" the "multi" is...

These days, I wouldn't consider people with a few mil to be really wealthy. More like middle class millionaires, maybe.
 
These days, I wouldn't consider people with a few mil to be really wealthy. More like middle class millionaires, maybe.
I'll grant you that since your tagline says you are from Los Angeles. But I also want to point out that college is really not that expensive either. :)
 

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