Airfare upgrade, I just can’t, but would you?

[MichaelB]

What constitutes being a dumbass with your money - judging from this thread that’s obviously still open for debate!

+1, and when it comes to choice and value, we all will view through different lenses.

Airlines prices are the best example of dynamic pricing, so the difference between a coach and business fare can be 15% or 6x, depending on demand.

I used to fly to Rio or Buenos Aires for work. The typical flight left NY or Miami between 10-12 pm arrived between 6-8 am. Hotels charged 1/2 day for an early morning check in, so airport to hotel, check in, shower and straight to work. Having a seat where one could sleep less uncomfortable meant all the difference the next day.

I really don’t get the angst about airfares. It’s like a car, one person buys a Honda Civic and another buys a Lamborghini, both to drive around the same area.

 

[marko]

A bit interesting is that 10 or 15 years ago, the majority of the membership here were posting "Pay for first class?? Never!!"

Now, between a few more years of aches and pains, lower tolerance for discomfort and a lot more dollars in the portfolio, many here are deciding that it's not such a bad idea after all. YOLO.

 

[RetiredHappy]

We (3 of us) are flying to Asia next month and just purchased our tickets. $5.5K/each for business class, lie flat seats. Wife refuses to downgrade after she tasted the good stuff 10+ years ago. I don't mind, we can afford it and I've been flying international business class since the late 80s for work. It is expensive but it is also worth it to arrive refreshed. To be honest, I'm probably OK with coach or premium economy coming home as I can recover nicely at home. I just don't like arriving tired and/or sore at a far off destination.

Which airline? I flew United Polaris last year in March and it cost me $8.5K for myself.

 

[MichaelB]

A bit interesting is that 10 or 15 years ago, the majority of the membership here were posting "Pay for first class?? Never!!"

Now, between a few more years of aches and pains, lower tolerance for discomfort and a lot more dollars in the portfolio, many here are deciding that it's not such a bad idea after all. YOLO.

I agree. Another factor, though, is what constitutes first class. IMO for domestic flights it has been downgraded both in space, cabin service and terminal service. This allows a lower price, which many are willing to pay.

For longer domestic and international flights with 3 classes, I would bet fewer here pay for true first class and would be more likely to fly premium economy or business.

 

[Aerides]

For me also, the choice is no longer between "basic economy" and first class. I'm at minimum going for a Main Economy Plus type, where I get one of the first few rows behind the premium cabins, with a few extra inches of leg room, and priority boarding. Tickets usually include 1 checked back, and of course I select my seat, usually an aisle.

The days of paying the lowest price and getting a middle seat in row 29 are long behind me no matter what. So that $300 domestic RT ticket usually starts over $500 for me anyway.

I'm looking at flights to Toronto this summer, and to get that Main Plus seating is going to be about $800, and first is $950, so that's a no-brainer.

 

[FD1000]

I got it.
If I can’t drive a Ferrari, I don’t drive.
If I can’t wear an Armani suit, I don’t buy any suit.
If I can’t take a limousine to the airport, if I don’t fly first class, dine at Michelin-starred restaurants, and stay in 5+ star hotels... I don’t take a vacation.

On the other hand, here are a few examples of how I enjoy life without overpaying for it.

• Uber vs. Limo: Last time, I took an Uber to the airport for $55. A limo would have been $250. The Uber was a one-year-old Toyota Camry, arrived in 10 minutes, and the ride was excellent.
• Long Flights: When we flew to Australia for an 18-hour flight, we were seated just 4 rows from the back. But we had 4 seats all to ourselves. This has happened on multiple long-haul flights, including to New Zealand.
• Affordable Travel: Next March, we’re vacationing in Greece. I booked a 4-star hotel with free parking (a must for me), free breakfast, and a fantastic location with a 4.9 rating out of 5—all for just $120 per night. See (link). Most of our hotels in Greece will be under $100 a night. All have free breakfast, parking, and excellent ratings.

I could easily find hotels in Athens that cost 3X more. But will they be worth it? Honestly, I doubt it. They probably won’t even be better.

• Great Food at Low Prices: All the restaurants I visit are highly rated yet reasonably priced. Google is a game changer for finding gems. One of my favorite spots near home is cheap and excellent. I’ve eaten at places that are 3-4 times more expensive, but they didn’t come close to the quality of the food I get there.

Wine Test: I have a snobby friend who insists she can tell the difference between great wine and cheap wine. So, I had her taste three wines: one under $10, one at $22, and one at $50. Her favorite? The under-$10 bottle. I knew it was a good one because it had great reviews.

Vehicle: I bought a vehicle for under $40K, and it does everything really well. My friend, on the other hand, bought an Audi for more than double the price. Every time he sits in my car, he’s amazed by how great it is. But when he tells me about the maintenance costs, I can’t help but cringe. Just to be sure, I bought a 10 warranty for 10 years. IMO, spending $1400 makes sense if you know how much it costs to fix a vehicle.
Even if they offered me the Audi for just 50% more, I still wouldn’t take it.

The point is: Price doesn’t buy happiness. Experiences do. Between great and extravagant, there’s plenty of room to enjoy amazing things without breaking the bank.

So, what would I do with this extra money? Kids, friends, charities, and more.
Or
Take out $10K in $100 bills and give it away. It would mean and feel so much better.

 

[Aerides]

But that's the whole point. No one is breaking the bank, or should be, if they are looking at an upgrade.

And that Experience thing is the other main feature. The experience of coach travel is garbage. It is uplifted by the upgrade. The experience at a 3 star hotel is blown away by a 5 star.
And yes, the experience of a michelin restaurant will far exceed any Outback or Roadhouse or any chain restaurant.

Sure, there are many things in between, but not much when it comes to air travel. It's either coach, maybe some better versions of it, or business/first. Most of the time, that means under $1k, or over $5k.

And I have an Audi that cost me less than $40k, it's very nice too.

 

[Onda]

What constitutes being a dumbass with your money - judging from this thread that’s obviously still open for debate!

It depends a lot on where you fly.


If you’re flying Boston → Miami, ($120 vs $500) it makes pretty much no difference in price. The flight is short, you’re barely settled in, and paying up for “premium” is mostly paying for a nicer chair and a drink.


But if you’re flying Boston → San Sebastián , the upgrade money gets real fast: $500 economy vs $3,500 business vs $5,500 First class. At that point, the “comfort premium” isn’t just a little splurge — it’s an entire alternative vacation budget.


For me, that difference is basically 20 dinners for two at 2–3 star Michelin places in San Sebastián. And I’ll take 20 unforgettable dinners over a first-class seat any day. The plane is just transportation — the food is one of the reasons I’m going.

 

[Onda]

Was just wondering if reaching a certain level of net worth will enable one to pay for BC/FC without first triggering any sort of value/money calculation in the brain. But it appears that level is all over the place.

For me, the one thing that would reliably make FC “money well spent” is a medical or physical condition. If my health would prevent me from flying unless it’s first class (or lie-flat), then it’s not luxury anymore—it’s access. In that case I wouldn’t hesitate: it would be money well spent.

 

[Lorenzo]

To me, meals at Michelin-starred restaurants, luxury goods, etc., add a level of enjoyment above what you find a merely comfortable level. If economy class were "merely comfortable" for me, I could appreciate the analogy. But economy class on long-haul flights borders on torturous to my aging back and sleep requirements. I can be cranky when I don't sleep well. I can be careless when I'm not alert. I'd be willing to bet more wallets are stolen from foreign visitors on their first day than the rest of the trip. So maybe that is a useful dividing line for those who can easily afford an upgraded flight level. If the cheaper seat causes you real physical discomfort or impairment, do yourself a favor.

 

[Aerides]

Was just wondering if reaching a certain level of net worth will enable one to pay for BC/FC without first triggering any sort of value/money calculation in the brain. But it appears that level is all over the place.

I think it's natural for everyone to do that with most purchases. And yes even with flights, even when you've decided to pay for BC/FC, it might be a better deal to travel on weekdays and adjust your schedule a day here or there to save a couple of grand - which I definitely do with hotels as well.

Similarly I will often pay more for the direct flight via the schedule/airport I prefer, vs. going 2 hours earlier or later, and saving $100.

 

[CO-guy]

Or to a home. A house in some parts of CA are 10 times the price of some homes in other states. Same even applies locally.

Exactly. I guess my point was really more of a, "to each their own."

Whatever reasons people have to fly premium or to fly economy are their own.

Some of this conversation reminds me of an old friend I had that would constantly insist people were overpaying for things or making poor financial decisions. Share any investment information and he'll tell you what stocks or funds you should have purchased. Show up in a new car and he'll tell you what you should be driving. Post a photo from vacation and he'll tell you where you should have gone. People like that are tiring.

 

[TripleLindy]

If economy class were "merely comfortable" for me, I could appreciate the analogy. But economy class on long-haul flights borders on torturous to my aging back and sleep requirements.

Exactly. If my back kinks up, it can take weeks to get worked out. Talk about ruining a vacation. Sure, I’d pay less if I could be comfortable and arrive with no issues. But that’s just not the case, so BC it is.

 

[RetiredHappy]

Flying business or first class is not ostentatious like carrying a Birkin bag. It is a personal experience that once consumed it is over. There is no need to try to explain or justify to those who cannot fathom spending that kind of money. For us, it is worth the 5-10X Economy price for a flight, every time.

 

[NoiseBoy]

I bought premium economy seats for our last 3 trips to Europe. And I mentioned this before, but this is worth repeating. Premium economy (PE) on Norse Atlantic Airways blew away PE seats on other airlines. It's not lie-flat, but of the same caliber as business class seats used to be perhaps 10 years ago. Norse does not even have business class, only coach and PE.

Our problem is that Norse has limited routes. I asked my wife if we should fly first-class domestic and business class overseas from now on, and she said "of course".

I am planning for a family trip to Europe with our son and daughter and their spouses. Non-stop business class for 6 seats to Europe from the West Coast is some serious money, requiring some thinking.

I fly Premium Economy to Europe a lot so your post about Norse made me curious to see their offerings. On SeatMaps.com, they show a seat width of 19", a pitch of 43" and a recline of 9" for Norse on 787-9. Next, I pulled up LOT Airlines because they also fly the -9 version of the Dreamliner and I am familiar with their seats. LOT has a 3 cabin layout in their Dreamliners. LOT's PE seats are 18" wide, have a pitch of 41" and recline 7" so you're right to say that Norse's PE seats are better than average. I fly out of Chicago, so unfortunately I can't take advantage of your tip. Still, I think you may find that most true PE cabins will meet your needs. What I've found, in multiple trips to Europe in PE class, is that the soft product varies quite a bit among the airlines. LOT's is among the best, being close to business class in service level, while SAS is probably the most bare bones.

Seat map of Norse Atlantic Airways Boeing 787-9 aircraft

Review the seating amenities, legroom and recline data for Norse Atlantic Airways Boeing 787-9. Includes ratings for First, Business, and Economy cabins

seatmaps.com

 

[athena53]

Exactly. If my back kinks up, it can take weeks to get worked out. Talk about ruining a vacation. Sure, I’d pay less if I could be comfortable and arrive with no issues. But that’s just not the case, so BC it is.

That's what got DH requesting that we fly Business Class on long hauls. He was 15 years older, 6'2" and had a creaky back. It was just too much for him to recover, especially after crossing multiple time zones on top of that. Fortunately, I was doing a lot of business travel (including Business Class to Europe and India) so we made it work with combinations of paid seats and use of miles (the latter was far easier years ago).

 

[shortstop14]

Now that some airlines are charging for advance seat selection even in Economy, I'm finding that I can select an emergency row seat with no seat in front of it for relatively small change. I guess that's my current compromise value solution. But I can see a future where the extra seat space becomes important enough to me to pay the business class price.

I'm also paying attention to the cheap upgrades sometimes available shortly before the flight.

 

[explanade]

• Affordable Travel: Next March, we’re vacationing in Greece. I booked a 4-star hotel with free parking (a must for me), free breakfast, and a fantastic location with a 4.9 rating out of 5—all for just $120 per night. See (link). Most of our hotels in Greece will be under $100 a night. All have free breakfast, parking, and excellent ratings.

Why do you need parking in Athens?

Do you plan to have a car? Where are you going before or after with a car? One of the big attractions of Greece are all the different islands. I know there are attractions within the Greece mainland as well. But those would be other places where it's not easy to park a car.

I don't know if there's a metro station there. But most of the sights you'd go to are in other parts of the city. You won't have an easy time driving and parking in these other places.

So in a big city, it's typically better to be near good public transportation.

For example, I'm going to Sydney and Melbourne. I will be staying in the CBD for a few days, with a lot of high rise buildings. I can go directly from the airport to a station near my hotel for like 15 AUD, which is like $11 now. I could pay for Uber or taxi and in a pinch I might do that.

The hotel charges 40 AUD a night for parking, which is about $27-28. Not bad because the USD exchange rate to the AUD is favorable. Other places charge 60 AUD a night apparently.

I will have pick up a rental car to drive out of the CBD to a smaller coastal town about 2 hours south of Sydney but that is after I check out of the CBD hotel.

While I'm there I will take trams, trains, buses around.

 

[FD1000]

Why do you need parking in Athens?

Do you plan to have a car? Where are you going before or after with a car? One of the big attractions of Greece are all the different islands. I know there are attractions within the Greece mainland as well. But those would be other places where it's not easy to park a car.

I don't know if there's a metro station there. But most of the sights you'd go to are in other parts of the city. You won't have an easy time driving and parking in these other places.

So in a big city, it's typically better to be near good public transportation.

For example, I'm going to Sydney and Melbourne. I will be staying in the CBD for a few days, with a lot of high rise buildings. I can go directly from the airport to a station near my hotel for like 15 AUD, which is like $11 now. I could pay for Uber or taxi and in a pinch I might do that.

The hotel charges 40 AUD a night for parking, which is about $27-28. Not bad because the USD exchange rate to the AUD is favorable. Other places charge 60 AUD a night apparently.

I will have pick up a rental car to drive out of the CBD to a smaller coastal town about 2 hours south of Sydney but that is after I check out of the CBD hotel.

While I'm there I will take trams, trains, buses around.

This is how we usually tour a country: we fly into the capital, rent a car, and drive to the next city. Several days before the end of the trip, we return to the capital, drive to the airport to return the car, and then take a taxi or Uber back to the hotel. Sometimes I can find a downtown rental branch and return the car there, without going to the airport at all.
This time, it’s different.
Keeping the car for an additional three nights doesn’t cost us anything extra. I also found several hotels in central Athens that offer free parking, something quite rare.
That means no time wasted returning the car, and driving ourselves back also saves us the taxi fare.
Last year, we toured Australia for nearly four weeks. We landed in Sydney, rented an SUV, and drove all the way to Adelaide thru Melbourne. The only real parking challenge was in Melbourne. Even there, we stayed about a 15-minute drive from downtown in a large, excellent apartment for under $100 per night, with free parking included. On top of that, the local bus into the city center was free.
From Adelaide, we flew to Cairns. We had a car the entire time and never had any parking issues.
From Cairns, we flew back to Sydney and stayed there for several days. For that part of the trip, we didn’t need a rental car at all.
I use another trick. We always have travel insurance, mainly for healthcare. I only insure the flights, nothing else, because I can cancel everything else.
The round trip ticket from ATL to Sydney was $930. I took travel insurance for $1800 at just $138 for both of us.
Remember: it doesn't matter if you insured $1K or $10K, the healthcare insurance part is the same but so much cheaper.

I’ve been planning detailed travel itineraries for over 40 years, and I love every minute of it. Organized tours waste a lot of time, rarely let you do everything you want, and usually cost at least four times more.

The only organized trip we ever booked was to India, but we had to cancel because my son needed surgery. Delta gave us a full credit.
“What? A non-refundable, no-change ticket?”
Yes. They did.

 

[explanade]

Yeah I'm a planner too.

I went to Greece in September, spent most of the time on islands.

I did 3 or 4 day rentals on a couple of the islands because some of the places I wanted to get to didn't have frequent bus service.

In Athens, I didn't have a car. But I spent a couple of nights in Sounio so I picked up a car from the airport. Only reason I rented a car there, no reliable public transportation between the airport and Sounio.

In big cities though cars are a liability and I like to be central, walk everywhere, so the rates tend to be higher and parking can really add up to a couple hundred dollars.

 

[FD1000]

We decided to skip the islands and spend two full weeks inland. Islands tend to waste a lot of precious time. The goal is to immerse ourselves in local life and culture.
Later on, we’ll take 1-2 cruises from Spain to Turkey and see many islands along the way. You sail at night and start exploring early in the morning, touring until late afternoon. There’s no time wasted going back and forth to the mainland.
Other than Athens, there are no other major cities.

Everything depends on where we travel. When we toured Germany, there were several large cities, and we used a rental car for the entire trip. It made no sense to return the car every time we reached a big city. Instead, I simply found accommodations with free or low-cost parking and used local transportation to get around.

 

[zangbao]

Why do you need parking in Athens?

Do you plan to have a car? Where are you going before or after with a car? One of the big attractions of Greece are all the different islands. I know there are attractions within the Greece mainland as well. But those would be other places where it's not easy to park a car.

I don't know if there's a metro station there. But most of the sights you'd go to are in other parts of the city. You won't have an easy time driving and parking in these other places.

So in a big city, it's typically better to be near good public transportation.

For example, I'm going to Sydney and Melbourne. I will be staying in the CBD for a few days, with a lot of high rise buildings. I can go directly from the airport to a station near my hotel for like 15 AUD, which is like $11 now. I could pay for Uber or taxi and in a pinch I might do that.

The hotel charges 40 AUD a night for parking, which is about $27-28. Not bad because the USD exchange rate to the AUD is favorable. Other places charge 60 AUD a night apparently.

I will have pick up a rental car to drive out of the CBD to a smaller coastal town about 2 hours south of Sydney but that is after I check out of the CBD hotel.

While I'm there I will take trams, trains, buses around.

The gate pass alone separate from the rail fare at Sydney airport is $18 AUD. That was shocking.

 

[anothercog]

Xanax is under $1/dose. A few of those and economy isn’t so bad and I wake up where I want to be.

 

[Lorenzo]

Xanax is under $1/dose. A few of those and economy isn’t so bad and I wake up where I want to be.

I don’t know about Xanax, but I’ll never take Ambien again after trying it on a flights. YMMV

 

[NW-Bound]

I fly Premium Economy to Europe a lot so your post about Norse made me curious to see their offerings. On SeatMaps.com, they show a seat width of 19", a pitch of 43" and a recline of 9" for Norse on 787-9. Next, I pulled up LOT Airlines because they also fly the -9 version of the Dreamliner and I am familiar with their seats. LOT has a 3 cabin layout in their Dreamliners. LOT's PE seats are 18" wide, have a pitch of 41" and recline 7" so you're right to say that Norse's PE seats are better than average...

Norse Premium seats are 19.5" wide, a tiny bit more than SeatMaps says. Compared to coach, the seat configuration is 2-3-2 instead of 3-3-3, so the armrests between seats are also wider, giving more space between passengers, although this may be the same with other airlines. Next time, I will try to remember bringing a tape measure to check every seat dimension.

I never looked that close at seat metrics, but remember that premium economy seats on Air France and British Airways fell far short of Norse seats (I don't remember what planes). The former two airlines are the only two that offer non-stop flights to Europe from my home town. I still recall the 1st time settling down into a Norse premium seat. I told myself "Hey, how do I raise the seat back up for take-off?", then realized that the up position is like a coach seat in recline. NICE!

PS. By the way, the food quality on Norse, which was not as good as other airlines, has come down more in my last trip. I guess they did not make enough money. Still, it's OK with me, as I care more about the seat comfort than airplane food.