Alternative to nuclear electric power generation

[JoeWras]

Speaking of scaling... I looked into geothermal heat pumps when I was replacing my equipment about 20 years ago.

I know, I know, geo heat/cool is different than power generation. Yet it is still in the same family of ideas.

We decided against it for a few reasons.

1) Trenching would be difficult on our land because of trees and terrain.

2) Reliability issues from friend's experience.

3) Limited support from limited set of contractors

I was hoping tech would come along in this time, but it seems it hasn't. My friend's reliability issue was the loop leaked in the ground. This is a catastrophic problem when it happens. They converted to an air exchange heat pump after that problem was determined.

But maybe someday this tech can improve or get simpler.

 

[Gumby]

My town built a new fire station ten years ago. The heat pump based system has never functioned adequately. They are almost done installing expensive auxiliary heating so it will be tolerable for the firefighters during the winter.

 

[38Chevy454]

Speaking of scaling... I looked into geothermal heat pumps when I was replacing my equipment about 20 years ago.

I know, I know, geo heat/cool is different than power generation. Yet it is still in the same family of ideas.

We decided against it for a few reasons.

1) Trenching would be difficult on our land because of trees and terrain.

2) Reliability issues from friend's experience.

3) Limited support from limited set of contractors

I was hoping tech would come along in this time, but it seems it hasn't. My friend's reliability issue was the loop leaked in the ground. This is a catastrophic problem when it happens. They converted to an air exchange heat pump after that problem was determined.

But maybe someday this tech can improve or get simpler.

What the HVAC industry calls geothermal is not the same as geothermal energy production. HVAC is just using the earth as the heat transfer source, being a relatively constant temp vs using air as the heat transfer source. It's a lot easier to get heat out of 55 degree heat exchanger fluid than 20 degree air heat exchange when in heating mode. Likewise it is easier to put heat into 55 degree fluid than 100 degree air when in A/C mode.

I do agree that the limited contractors and potential problems make it a less than optimum choice for most applications. Many new heat pump systems are reaching efficiencies that are making geothermal an even harder choice to justify.

Back on nuclear, I think USA was quite short sighted when almost all nuclear energy powerplant development was stopped bowing to a vocal minority of anti-nuclear voices. We should expedite getting new nuclear energy powerplants, whether small plant or large. Fusion as a commercial energy producer is way off, in spite of the snake oil claims. Until then we should utilize all sources we have, especially carbon based.

 

[marko]

Now, just last night, Boston’s mayor announced plans for geothermal for Boston’s houses.

Boston Mayor Michelle Wu dedicated just one sentence of her State of the City speech on Tuesday to announcing a significant new utility project, the city's first-ever networked geothermal system.

"I'm also proud to announce that, with National Grid, we will launch Boston's first-ever networked geothermal system -- delivering clean energy for heating and cooling to hundreds of families...."

May never happen but it sounds good, considering they've banned all fossil fuels from future city buildings.

 

[JoeWras]

Now, just last night, Boston’s mayor announced plans for geothermal for Boston’s houses.

Boston Mayor Michelle Wu dedicated just one sentence of her State of the City speech on Tuesday to announcing a significant new utility project, the city's first-ever networked geothermal system.

"I'm also proud to announce that, with National Grid, we will launch Boston's first-ever networked geothermal system -- delivering clean energy for heating and cooling to hundreds of families...."

May never happen but it sounds good, considering they've banned all fossil fuels from future city buildings.

Possible, but difficult. It will take a lot of time to do this. I'm going going to presume this means pipes going to houses like they have in Europe, and not power generation. This system is called "District Heating". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating

Consider my local area. We have municipalities creating a dual pipeline for reclaimed water. This water can be used for grass or flowers, but not in the home. No insulation required. Even that simple project has had a lot of difficulties, including one family that was using reclaimed water for 6 months as drinking water. A builder mistake occurred. The family said, "Yeah, it tasted funny."

Central geothermal has bigger issues. Cross connection is a tiny issue. Insulation is a much bigger problem.

 

[misanman]

"We're building the world's first fusion power plant."

Reminds me of my investment in KMS Fusion stock circa 1974. Fusion power generation was "just around the corner".

 

[Free To Canoe]

I was sadden to recently learn about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal

Maybe some of the folks deep in to nuclear can help us understand why the newer design AP1000 reactors had such cost overruns?

 

[marko]

Possible, but difficult. It will take a lot of time to do this. I'm going going to presume this means pipes going to houses like they have in Europe, and not power generation. This system is called "District Heating". .

Grandstanding IMO. She makes it sound like it's ready to go and just a matter of drilling a few holes. This stuff always sounds easy and nice, but eventually reality sets in. Probably not in my lifetime

 

[GaryInCO]

My town built a new fire station ten years ago. The heat pump based system has never functioned adequately. They are almost done installing expensive auxiliary heating so it will be tolerable for the firefighters during the winter.

That indicates bad design, not an inherent failing of the heat pump concept.

My brother (a musician who does solar/HVAC/etc on a "passionate hobbyist" level) designed and helped install a complete re-vamp of the heating/cooling system for his church. It involved digging out a 65-yr-old fuel tank for the old boiler, totally redesigning/replacing airflow in the church (heated air used to travel through uninsulated underground clay tile pipes!!!), installing ground-source geo loops, installing 3 large air-to-air heat-pump systems and 4 ground-source heat pumps, etc. During last winter's 3-day -17F cold snap in Iowa, the church never dropped below its 67° set temperature.

This stuff works, if designed/installed properly.

He also designed and helped install the solar PV system for the church. Now the church has a net-zero utility bill. They will lease the system from my brother's LLC (created for this purpose) for 6-7 years, paying back his expenses, and then they will have zero-cost heat, cooling, and power.

If you're curious, project info / photos / etc are at https://missiongreen.llc/the-story-of-how/. Mission Green is my brother's LLC.

 

[aja8888]

That indicates bad design, not an inherent failing of the heat pump concept.

My brother (a musician who does solar/HVAC/etc on a "passionate hobbyist" level) designed and helped install a complete re-vamp of the heating/cooling system for his church. It involved digging out a 65-yr-old fuel tank for the old boiler, totally redesigning/replacing airflow in the church (heated air used to travel through uninsulated underground clay tile pipes!!!), installing ground-source geo loops, installing 3 large air-to-air heat-pump systems and 4 ground-source heat pumps, etc. During last winter's 3-day -17F cold snap in Iowa, the church never dropped below its 67° set temperature.

This stuff works, if designed/installed properly.

He also designed and helped install the solar PV system for the church. Now the church has a net-zero utility bill. They will lease the system from my brother's LLC (created for this purpose) for 6-7 years, paying back his expenses, and then they will have zero-cost heat, cooling, and power.

If you're curious, project info / photos / etc are at https://missiongreen.llc/the-story-of-how/. Mission Green is my brother's LLC.

Nice project. Thanks for posting.

 

[Turbo29]

But that power plant will die eventually. What will we do then??!!

"It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever."
Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said.
"Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert."
"That's not forever."


The Last Question -- Issac Asimov