Blowing Our Cover

[Winemaker]

When we retired at 56, people realized that that we LBOurMs for a reason. When asked about how we were going to get healthcare, we just said we had to pay the premiums ourselves. That really opened their eyes, C'est la vie!

 

[Souschef]

To any remarks about how big/expensive the new house is, I'd reply "But you should see the mortgage!"

We live in a +55 MHP, and I am sure some of the folks are just getting by. I had just sold my Hyundai to our grandson, and DW''s 1998 Caddy with that POS Northstar engine died.
In less than a week we both had new cars, and a few of our neighbors remarked about that fact.
I just sort of mumbled something about car payments.

 

[Gumby]

If someone ever says something like "It must be nice to have/do ________," I always just say "Yes, it is." I don't see any particular need to justify myself. But that almost never happens. Most people pay no attention to what I do.

 

[athena53]

To any remarks about how big/expensive the new house is, I'd reply "But you should see the mortgage!"

That would be my tactic. OP's wife may have legitimate concerns about what reactions she may get from friends and family members- anything from expectations that she'll pick up the check at restaurants every time and bail them out of credit card debt to plain old jealousy. I wouldn't let it hold you back from making upgrades that you want and can afford.

 

[Midpack]

Put me in the who cares what others think camp. We very deliberately don't flaunt our fat FIRE situation. We still LBYM for the most part, and we have much less house than we can afford. But when others notice our spending and suspect we're wealthier than we appear, we just deny/laugh it off and change the subject.

We have some wealthy friends, but most of our friends are less well off. We don't seek either, our friends aren't based on socioeconomic status at all.

But everyone or every couple has to decide what's important to them. If your friends would be influenced by your wealth...

 

[Route246]

Thank you for all of the responses. I've gained quite a bit of insight how to deal with this.

Let me explain one huge advantage to stealth wealth. People never come to us asking for money, proposing a contribution/investment in a small venture, asking for charitable contributions for some cause we don't care about or just the expectation that we should share our money with others inferring that if we don't share it we are somehow stingy or worse.

Because of this we never have to say no.

I, for one, am very resentful when put into this position. When I had a pickup truck I could not believe how many "friends" came out of the woodwork asking to "borrow" my truck and I really resented telling them no because it put an unfair obligation on me to say no through no fault of my own and the person asking generally had no clue what harm they were doing by asking. My truck at the time was what some called a monster truck with lift kit, engine mods, heavy duty differentials and transfer case and jumbo tires and wheels. It had a bed and people got the idea it was like the F150 at for dealer or something. I used it for off-road, driving to the mountains in the snow and for rugged use only but it was also useful for moving furniture and garden supplies but only because I had a trailer and receiver hitch that was lowered.

That said, for a number of years I would get these friendly calls and I would tell them that I sold the truck and no longer I had it and they would terminate the conversation at that point.

We have friends who flaunt their meager wealth and they too, complain about people always asking for handouts, for money, for investments, etc. It is just a pain to say no to people. When I have to do it I feel a mix or anger, annoyance and incredulity. I would rather not deal with saying no to people. I don't like doing it. My wife, on the other hand, cannot even say no to people, she just isn't wired that way. She says, "Talk to him" and then I have to be the one saying no.

We don't mind paying for group meals but only when it is our choice. We don't mind contributing to good causes but again, when it is our choice. Human nature, being what it is, creates this sort of situation.

 

[marko]

Let me explain one huge advantage to stealth wealth. People never come to us asking for money, proposing a contribution/investment in a small venture, asking for charitable contributions for some cause we don't care about or just the expectation that we should share our money with others inferring that if we don't share it we are somehow stingy or worse.

As noted above, everyone who knows us knows that we are wealthy.
But in my entire life, I've never had anyone come to me asking for money. Never, not once. Even then, it wouldn't prevent me from enjoying my money or force me to take measures to hide it.

Maybe you just need different friends.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

We lived WAY below our means for decades. Nice but way below our means.

As we shifted gears towards and then into FIRE, I suppose it’s been a bit like watching a submarine surface. It surprised people.

When we bought our beach house people could easily see what we paid. All they had to do was Zillow the address. When a relative decided to pry and say “How big is the mortgage?”, I was honest and said “There isn’t one.”

Heads turned.

Was I showing off? No.

I wouldn’t have advertised it, but I’m also not going to tell lies to avoid people feeling uncomfortable. I worked my tail off and invested like crazy for 30 years to pull this off. Other folks don’t.

Consequences ensue.

That’s life.

 

[athena53]

As noted above, everyone who knows us knows that we are wealthy.
But in my entire life, I've never had anyone come to me asking for money. Never, not once. Even then, it wouldn't prevent me from enjoying my money or force me to take measures to hide it.

Two stories involving my Ex: he was a braggart and when his mother died he started telling everyone what he'd inherit. A friend whose GF got into trouble because she embezzled money from the bank where she worked (they spent it on drugs) wanted to know if he could help her restore the money.

The Ex on the other side of the fence: his sister and her husband were extremely successful entrepreneurs and owned a palatial home on the NJ shore with a private beach and a boat. The Ex coveted both. A few times he'd try to blackmail her into allowing him to stay in the house or use the boat by just showing up (a 2-hour drive from where he lived). She set very firm boundaries (perfectly reasonable): if you showed up without an invitation you went home.

 

[Music Lover]

Let me explain one huge advantage to stealth wealth. People never come to us asking for money, proposing a contribution/investment in a small venture, asking for charitable contributions for some cause we don't care about or just the expectation that we should share our money with others inferring that if we don't share it we are somehow stingy or worse.

Because of this we never have to say no.

No one asks me for money, but if they did I'd have no problem at all saying no. One of my friends is an 8-figure millionaire and when we go for lunch we take turns buying. I don't expect him to pay just because he has far more than me.

The "fair share" of my money is $0.

 

[pjigar]

Our social circle is LBYM and next door millionaire kind so most people don't care/ask about how we spend our money. YMMV.

 

[pjigar]

I wouldn’t have advertised it, but I’m also not going to tell lies to avoid people feeling uncomfortable. I worked my tail off and invested like crazy for 30 years to pull this off. Other folks don’t.

That's us. We don't advertise but if someone asks I tell the truth. I don't like to beat around the bushes.

 

[38Chevy454]

I'll put in another thought from different perspective. A good friend would be happy for you getting a new nicer house. Good friends aren't jealous or judgemental.

 

[Route246]

Our social circle is LBYM and next door millionaire kind so most people don't care/ask about how we spend our money. YMMV.

Same here but there are always those on the fringe who can ruin things because they have a big mouth. It is not our core group of friends and family who are problematic so changing our friends is not going to make a difference.

It is more like the panhandler who walks up and politely begs for money and when you say no the response is F-you. I ask myself why did this A-hole ask me for money and put me in the position to be told, F-you? Something is wrong with this picture.

We are house-hunting now and the value of Zillow (and Redfin) has been tremendous. It is a win-win for us and our buyer's agent as we get alerts in real-time and we only need to ask him for disclosures when something interesting shows up. He steps in when we need to make an offer (so far, one failed offer where we came in 10th place out of 10). This market is tight as there is almost no suitable inventory and what is out there is undesirable so a small group of us are all fighting over the same properties. We just made an offer at list and told our agent he has $400K to work with. The house sold for 1.2M over because of a feeding frenzy. We are willing to pay market price or a little higher but when two bidders start battling we don't wish to get into that battle because we are fighting Magnificent-7 money and even though we have substantial holdings in Mag-7 equities we are not liquidating those now (at least yet) to make this move.

This is not a lifestyle change or upgrade for us in that we are satisfied with where we are. This is purely a play to get some of our outsized equity position into some premium land that happens to have a house on it. The old saying goes, "They ain't making anymore of that stuff" or something like that.

Unfortunately, it exposes our FI to the masses as we are not wealthy enough to use LLCs or other mechanisms to hide our transaction.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Let me explain one huge advantage to stealth wealth. People never come to us asking for money, proposing a contribution/investment in a small venture, asking for charitable contributions for some cause we don't care about or just the expectation that we should share our money with others inferring that if we don't share it we are somehow stingy or worse.

Because of this we never have to say no.

This is THE advantage to stealth wealth. I'm not needing to be stealthy about my wealth, at least not yet. But as a small business owner I have had many people ask me to invest in their latest project. Family members asking me to invest in oil wells? Oh my. Friends asking me to invest in long shot business ventures. Usually if I ask to see their business plan and/or financial projections, that's the end of it. Or I tell them I can't really make a move involving that much money without consulting DW. And I know DW is going to say no. That usually ends the discussion. But why should I have to say that?

I agree with Route246, it's awkward to be in a position of having to say "no".

 

[brett]

We live in a higher end neighborhood. Lots of late model Acruras., Lexus, Porsch, etc. More often than not 2 of them in the garage.

We drive a 2006 Honda and a 2007 Toyota with no thoughts of replacing either. Nothing to do with stealth. We live a simple life by choice other than perhaps travel. Our children, friends, neighbours have zero insight into our financials.

It might have more to do with our upbring. Scottish Presbyterian. Work hard, work smart, and keep you finances very private. No obvious ostentatious acquisitions/lifestyle, no keeping up with the Jones' or anyone else.

Prior to retirement one of our friends seem surprised when he found out through a nephew what my role was in the organizationwhere we both worked.. I never really mentioned it to anyone unless asked specifically.

One reason we switched to anytime dining from set dining tables on cruises is we got tired of people letting us know how important they or their jobs were, how smart/successful their children and grandchildren were, or how many days a year they cruised, etc.

 

[Dash man]

We were outed by my FIL who lived with us for seven years. He overheard or saw some paperwork that indicated our wealth. He couldn’t keep it quiet being a gossip and told most of the family.
Nobody before or after has ever asked for any money. It’s just not done in our family, and I’m thankful for that. If we see a need for assistance, we offer or just give money or buy what they need. We often gift vacations, wedding money, use of our beach house, and other things to family members. They help us in many ways too, not with money, but with help painting, checking on properties, being there when we’re ill, etc.
My father-in-law thought he was spreading gossip no one else knew about. But his kids and grandkids all turned out great.
Our neighbors may or may not know of our wealth and we couldn’t care less about theirs. It’s a good neighborhood where people mostly mind their own business, but are good neighbors.

 

[audreyh1]

It’s interesting that you feel the need to invest in real estate this way instead of equities even though you are happy with your current living situation.

 

[marko]

I should note that there's a difference between being just Financially Independent (many of us here are) and buying the adjacent two houses to knock down to install a HeliPad so you can get to your private jet faster...

Gee, you make that sound like a bad thing.....

 

[Sunset]

......

We are house-hunting now ........ We just made an offer at list and told our agent he has $400K to work with. The house sold for 1.2M over because of a feeding frenzy. We are willing to pay market price or a little higher but when two bidders start battling we don't wish to get into that battle because we are fighting Magnificent-7 money and even though we have substantial holdings in Mag-7 equities we are not liquidating those now (at least yet) to make this move.

This is not a lifestyle change or upgrade for us in that we are satisfied with where we are. This is purely a play to get some of our outsized equity position into some premium land that happens to have a house on it. The old saying goes, "They ain't making anymore of that stuff" or something like that.

Unfortunately, it exposes our FI to the masses as we are not wealthy enough to use LLCs or other mechanisms to hide our transaction.

Having a second home isn't really a great investment, as a person can only live in one at a time. It's more of a lifestyle to have a 2nd home to live somewhere different part-time during part of the year.
I'd look for other diversification than an obligation to maintain like another house.

We've been retired for quite a few years, some relatives have mentioned how we seem to like travel. I agree we do like travel. Nobody asks for money.

We also don't tell/brag anywhere and drive Toyotas instead of more expensive status cars because I don't see any value in them.
So we fit in like normal folks.

I don't find people all that interested in us and that suits me just fine.

 

[TickTock]

We don't go out of our way to flaunt or downplay our wealth. That said, we don't really dress or own things that scream wealth - my most frequent outfit is jeans and a t-shirt.

As DM says, you worked hard, saved, and invested to get where you are now. It's nothing to brag about, and also nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[RetiredHappy]

OP's problem is having poorer friends and family. We don't have this problem because our friends who live in our community are many times richer than us. In fact we are seen as being poor because we live in a "tract" home even though the homes in our development cost at least a million dollars. Most homes in our community are "custom". We all golf together and eat at the same restaurants. We show each other new cars that we just bought and discuss features of the cars etc. No one is comparing wealth.

We are organizing a fundraiser for a golf pro who is having health issues and needs money. We are looking at raising about $20K through a golf tournament and another $20K through cash donations and silent auction. We care for each other, regardless of our wealth level.

Our realtor who is also our neighbor and also sold us our home mentioned that there is a new home that will come on the market for $7M and asked if we are interested. The amount of wealth around here is amazing but no one really knows how much one really has. If you live in our community, you are "rich".

 

[Surewhitey]

Our neighbor told everyone we were drug dealers from Mexico when we paid cash for their friend's house. Can't make this stuff up, but still gives me a laugh to this day.

You can't control what people say or think. If they're good friends, you don't need to worry.

 

[skipro33]

I've found there are many people who know us that resent us after they find out we made it to FI. I can conclude they think themselves superior to us and that our good fortune is by sheer luck, nothing that we did other than stumble into good fortune. Not just financially, but that we've been happily married for 50 years, when most of them have had separations and divorces. Same with kids; they describe theirs having problems with relationships, education, finances, etc. while ours went to college, have successful marriages, great jobs and kids who all are 4.0 grade averages, now graduating from high school themselves with full ride scholarships or acceptance to military academies. A very few will ask us how we've been so successful when they have struggled. There's no good answer, so we just tell them we don't know. Trying to explain only pisses them off and we sound as condescending as they have to us.
It's hard to hide wealth when you have a nice home, cars and travel regularly. People aren't stupid and can figure that much out. About the only thing we've found is to ignore their attitudes and hope they won't ditch us, but usually they do. Mostly it's the husbands who resent my wife and fear she's going to gossip to their wives about how great they have it. Normally I won't see it, but my wife sure does and lets me know when and how. Sometimes it's the friend wife and they ask my wife if she's being abused! I guess they figure I'm buying my way out of trouble with jewelry I buy her. But that's because when we married at age 18, I had to borrow $300 to buy her a ring from a store called GEMCO. She doesn't ask for jewelry, but I enjoy shopping with her and having her pick out something nice, which she then only wears when it's just us. Ha!

Anyways, I will guess your wife has heard these friends and family gossip about others in the group who they discovered have wealth more than their own and has reason to be hesitant. One thing I've learned in 50 years of marriage; always take your wife's advice and follow her lead. Even when you think it's not the right path, it will become evident that it really is.

 

[Route246]

When my friend became wealthy upon the sale of his company (100M+ for him) he had maintained his old habits other than buying a big place in an upscale neighborhood. His sister-in-law said she felt like the Beverly Hillbillies when she got a tour of her sister's new home 25 years ago. He said all kinds of people were hitting on him to invest in whatever. One of his investments was for an acquaintance's son-in-law's venture. Long story short the business became very successful and he made his money back plus the returns that were promised. The son-in-law now has people throwing money at him due to his talents and he has to turn down investors. He invested because of the small amount that was solicited and didn't think much of it. I asked him why did he invest in that one? He said she was a nice lady and believed her. I told him he has the midas touch and probably should become a VC. He's happy in retirement and has no desire to go back to work.

I have only invested in one private venture and that one is also a winner. It was done as a favor for an old manager and turns out 30x returns and increasing. Still hold it and haven't cashed it in even though the shares are public on an overseas exchange and quite liquid. The only reason I invested was he asked me if I wanted in on a very risky venture but if it hits it will go very high, if not, I will lose everything. I did this because I trusted this guy and I know his reputation for being smart and honest.

I have been asked numerous times to provide private equity funds but I'm a little dubious of what the funds (SPACs) will be leveraged against. I'm not diversified enough to be dabbling in these ventures. I'm quite happy with the Brinker/Bogle method which has pretty much done exactly what was expected.