CEF Holdings --- July 2026

[FlyingCircus]

Got some cash burning a hole in my pocket.
Looking at PTY and PHK
Sold PTY at $13.06 now at $12.12
Sold PHK at $4.88, now at $4.67
In an IRA

Which one would you buy?

PHK. 1/2 the premium, more yield.

 

[DrVenture]

EDIT: I see that I posted earlier today that I sold GOF at $10.73, it was actually $10.93 (typo).
The time limit to edit my post lapsed.

Also, at COB I sold APDPX at a small profit and radded the proceeds into EGRIX.

 

[DrVenture]

After reimposing sanctions and attacking IRAN, probably. I just raised some more cash in the after market. Better safe.....
Regards, Dick

I have a couple limit orders in place for PAXS(new) and PFN (add).

 

[dickoncapecod]

In an exchange with Nick Akerman --- among the best authors/analysts over on SA --- I learned another source of absolutely non-destructive distribution contributions that are classified as ROC. Others may have known this already but it was new to me....as usual, obvious when someone points it out!

CEFs are tax-passthru structures --- CEFs pay no taxes because WE investors pay the taxes on distributions we receive. That goes for the tax CHARACTER of portions of distributions. So if a CEF has carry-forward losses, they can choose to write off realized gains against carried forward losses. They must still distribute the gains, but those gains are not taxable for us and are therefore characterized as ROC.

Aside: at 6/30/25, PDI had $257 million in short term carry-forward losses and $731 million in long term. These accumulated losses caused painful declines in NAV as they occurred, but now they are among the tools managers can use to characterize portions of distributions as non-taxable und non-destructive ROC for the benefit of shareholders.

Regards, Dick

 

[marko]

In an exchange with Nick Akerman --- among the best authors/analysts over on SA --- I learned another source of absolutely non-destructive distribution contributions that are classified as ROC. Others may have known this already but it was new to me....as usual, obvious when someone points it out!

CEFs are tax-passthru structures --- CEFs pay no taxes because WE investors pay the taxes on distributions we receive. That goes for the tax CHARACTER of portions of distributions. So if a CEF has carry-forward losses, they can choose to write off realized gains against carried forward losses. They must still distribute the gains, but those gains are not taxable for us and are therefore characterized as ROC.

Aside: at 6/30/25, PDI had $257 million in short term carry-forward losses and $731 million in long term. These accumulated losses caused painful declines in NAV as they occurred, but now they are among the tools managers can use to characterize portions of distributions as non-taxable und non-destructive ROC for the benefit of shareholders.

Regards, Dick

Thanks Dick!
[Still on my first cup of coffee, so haven't thought this fully through but....]
Eventually enough ROC turns into capital gains. This internal mechanism might accelerate reaching that point faster than otherwise.

At that point, aren't WE paying for the CEFs "manipulation" sooner than we should?

Disregard if, once again, I'm lost.

 

[IncomeOriented]

But you have the ability to to offset CG with cap losses, no such option for dividends. LTGC are also at the low cap gains rate, compared to full tax boat dividends.
Edit: in a taxable account only, CEF dividends with ROC provide a dual benefit, making part of the fully taxable dividend tax free, and when that ROC reduces nav, making that CG on sale of shares, LTCG, taxed at the lowest rates.

 

[dickoncapecod]

@marko @IncomeOriented. Guys, let me try to make the point more clearly.
IF IF IF a CEF has carryforward losses, the CEF can "pair off" new realized gains to make them non-taxable. When they distribute such a gain, it's tax-free character means that part of any such distribution is reported as ROC. This is a type of non-destructive ROC that benefits investors.
Regards, Dick

 

[Aiming_4_55]

Is there a sticky or Youtube video for a CEF newbie can get a better foundation on learning and investing in CEFs? I check the thread every so often, but not knowledge to invest $100k in a few Pimco options. I see that comment, CEFs are not a buy and hold option, and that's my primary means of investing, but approaching the decision of leaving W2 position in 1 - 2 years. TIA

 

[dickoncapecod]

Is there a sticky or Youtube video for a CEF newbie can get a better foundation on learning and investing in CEFs? I check the thread every so often, but not knowledge to invest $100k in a few Pimco options. I see that comment, CEFs are not a buy and hold option, and that's my primary means of investing, but approaching the decision of leaving W2 position in 1 - 2 years. TIA

I'm unaware of any foundation-building YouTube stuff on CEFs. I mostly go there for old sci-fi movies.
Regards, Dick

 

[COcheesehead]

Is there a sticky or Youtube video for a CEF newbie can get a better foundation on learning and investing in CEFs? I check the thread every so often, but not knowledge to invest $100k in a few Pimco options. I see that comment, CEFs are not a buy and hold option, and that's my primary means of investing, but approaching the decision of leaving W2 position in 1 - 2 years. TIA

In my opinion, the best way to learn is to experience them. Create a watchlist or buy a share of ones you are interested in and watch how they operate. You’ll see how they are or are not correlated to other markets, how the ex and pay dates work. How the market price tracks to the fund’s NAV.
That is how I gained my knowledge of individual bonds years ago. Buying/observing was my best teacher.

 

[DrVenture]

Is there a sticky or Youtube video for a CEF newbie can get a better foundation on learning and investing in CEFs? I check the thread every so often, but not knowledge to invest $100k in a few Pimco options. I see that comment, CEFs are not a buy and hold option, and that's my primary means of investing, but approaching the decision of leaving W2 position in 1 - 2 years. TIA

My opinion is that CEFs (and OEFs) are not optimized by a B&H strategy, with CEFs being more volatile, but also with much more upside potential.

But, CEFs can be B&H investments, many here use them that way - as income generating vehicles, while ignoring the price gyrations. Timing is a big deal for CEFs. The past six months have offered up some great prices, from a historical perspective. Right now, they appear to be priced for acquisition. BUT, if rates rise or the bottom comes out of the market, you can avoid some loses, and find opportunities, by selling and re-purchasing after the chaos.

This is simply my opinion, and I welcome feedback.

 

[Steelpony]

@marko @IncomeOriented. Guys, let me try to make the point more clearly.
IF IF IF a CEF has carryforward losses, the CEF can "pair off" new realized gains to make them non-taxable. When they distribute such a gain, it's tax-free character means that part of any such distribution is reported as ROC. This is a type of non-destructive ROC that benefits investors.
Regards, Dick

The less informed bail because the price or NAV went down losing value, compounding etc. The I think investing method.

The ones who know the product or management better may buy and hold or add more. Decision making with facts.

 

[sengsational]

Is that an “eventual drop,” or is that just the rising and falling with interest rates? Maybe I’m confused as to what @sengsational meant by that.

Don't read too much into it. I like to keep reminding myself, irrespective of the vehicle, that nothing flies high forever.

 

[Aiming_4_55]

In my opinion, the best way to learn is to experience them. Create a watchlist or buy a share of ones you are interested in and watch how they operate. You’ll see how they are or are not correlated to other markets, how the ex and pay dates work. How the market price tracks to the fund’s NAV.
That is how I gained my knowledge of individual bonds years ago. Buying/observing was my best teacher.

A few months ago, added the following to my watch list: PAXS, PHK, PTY. PDI (purchased 250 shares in HSA a few months ago).

 

[PaulR888]

My opinion is that CEFs (and OEFs) are not optimized by a B&H strategy, with CEFs being more volatile, but also with much more upside potential.

But, CEFs can be B&H investments, many here use them that way - as income generating vehicles, while ignoring the price gyrations. Timing is a big deal for CEFs. The past six months have offered up some great prices, from a historical perspective. Right now, they appear to be priced for acquisition. BUT, if rates rise or the bottom comes out of the market, you can avoid some loses, and find opportunities, by selling and re-purchasing after the chaos.

This is simply my opinion, and I welcome feedback.

Well stated DrV. As a B&H, I treat CEFs much like my individual stocks, e.g. Merck or UnitedHealthcare or NextEra where I took unrealized losses within the last few years but believed in them and stuck with them to allow them time to recover. For a CEF, if I see a sell-off day I use it to buy more, toward topping off to my target allocation for it. But remember, I only have 10% PV in bond CEFs, so my portfolio construction mitigates the blow.

 

[Semi-Retyrd]

Is there a sticky or Youtube video for a CEF newbie can get a better foundation on learning and investing in CEFs? I check the thread every so often, but not knowledge to invest $100k in a few Pimco options. I see that comment, CEFs are not a buy and hold option, and that's my primary means of investing, but approaching the decision of leaving W2 position in 1 - 2 years. TIA

My preface - I am an unreliable narrator.

I will share the little I know (some of which may be wrong) about CEFs.

CEFs have two prices. The NAV which is supposed to be the value of the actual holdings at the end of each day. The Price which is what you pay to buy the CEF. For funds like the Pimco's which hold thousands of positions many of which are not so liquid the NAV is a best guess. The price of a CEF (what you pay) depends on the psychology of the mostly retail investors and can very wildly above or below the NAV based on fear and greed. Because the price volatility is always much greater than NAV volatility CEFs can be potentially great trading vehicles and gut wrenching buy and hold vehicles.

IMO if you are a buy and hold investor, then individual CEFs may not be for you.

There is one exception, CEFS, which is an activist fund of CEFs. (See undefined). This fund uses the fact that many CEFs are run by greedy incompetent managers who can sometimes be bullied through proxy fights into liquidating or offering redemption at NAV. An investment in CEFS is an investment in Boaz Weinstein, the guy who runs the fund and beats up the PMs of his targets.

IMO this fund is suitable for a buy an hold investor who wants CEF exposure so long as Boaz continues to run it.

 

[GaltintheGulch]

Got some cash burning a hole in my pocket.
Looking at PTY and PHK
Sold PTY at $13.06 now at $12.12
Sold PHK at $4.88, now at $4.67
In an IRA

Which one would you buy?

both

 

[PaulR888]

Is there a sticky or Youtube video for a CEF newbie can get a better foundation on learning and investing in CEFs? I check the thread every so often, but not knowledge to invest $100k in a few Pimco options. I see that comment, CEFs are not a buy and hold option, and that's my primary means of investing, but approaching the decision of leaving W2 position in 1 - 2 years. TIA

You can start by searching John Cole Scott on youtube. This is not an endorsement, I am just familiar with him from many moons ago.

 

[Texas Proud]

@marko @IncomeOriented. Guys, let me try to make the point more clearly.
IF IF IF a CEF has carryforward losses, the CEF can "pair off" new realized gains to make them non-taxable. When they distribute such a gain, it's tax-free character means that part of any such distribution is reported as ROC. This is a type of non-destructive ROC that benefits investors.
Regards, Dick

Let me add (and who knows if I am right lol)...

The capital loss occurred in the past... the hit to NAV has already taken place.. IOW, the 'destruction' to the NAV already happened... the only thing happening with this kind of accounting is being able to get that capital loss to you...

 

[MRG]

My preface - I am an unreliable narrator.

I will share the little I know (some of which may be wrong) about CEFs.

CEFs have two prices. The NAV which is supposed to be the value of the actual holdings at the end of each day. The Price which is what you pay to buy the CEF. For funds like the Pimco's which hold thousands of positions many of which are not so liquid the NAV is a best guess. The price of a CEF (what you pay) depends on the psychology of the mostly retail investors and can very wildly above or below the NAV based on fear and greed. Because the price volatility is always much greater than NAV volatility CEFs can be potentially great trading vehicles and gut wrenching buy and hold vehicles.

IMO if you are a buy and hold investor, then individual CEFs may not be for you.

There is one exception, CEFS, which is an activist fund of CEFs. (See undefined). This fund uses the fact that many CEFs are run by greedy incompetent managers who can sometimes be bullied through proxy fights into liquidating or offering redemption at NAV. An investment in CEFS is an investment in Boaz Weinstein, the guy who runs the fund and beats up the PMs of his targets.

IMO this fund is suitable for a buy an hold investor who wants CEF exposure so long as Boaz continues to run it.

Good write-up.

Traditional OEF funds are priced and exchanged at their NAV. The first part of the nightly process calculates the current NAV before funds are bought and sold that night.

I'm familiar with CEFS, but can't comment on the management. It appears to have decent charts There's a couple other funds of funds. YYY, and FOF. I can't comment on them past that.

 

[COcheesehead]

My preface - I am an unreliable narrator.

I will share the little I know (some of which may be wrong) about CEFs.

CEFs have two prices. The NAV which is supposed to be the value of the actual holdings at the end of each day. The Price which is what you pay to buy the CEF. For funds like the Pimco's which hold thousands of positions many of which are not so liquid the NAV is a best guess. The price of a CEF (what you pay) depends on the psychology of the mostly retail investors and can very wildly above or below the NAV based on fear and greed. Because the price volatility is always much greater than NAV volatility CEFs can be potentially great trading vehicles and gut wrenching buy and hold vehicles.

IMO if you are a buy and hold investor, then individual CEFs may not be for you.

There is one exception, CEFS, which is an activist fund of CEFs. (See undefined). This fund uses the fact that many CEFs are run by greedy incompetent managers who can sometimes be bullied through proxy fights into liquidating or offering redemption at NAV. An investment in CEFS is an investment in Boaz Weinstein, the guy who runs the fund and beats up the PMs of his targets.

IMO this fund is suitable for a buy an hold investor who wants CEF exposure so long as Boaz continues to run it.

Just an FYI, many funds, not just CEFs, have a market price and a Net Asset Value. The premiums or discounts are far less on open ended funds, but they do exist and are reported if you know where to look.

 

[richardsok]

AIMING --
I'm a little conflicted how I might respond because I've had similar conversations with an elderly family member too frightened to invest at all. But just because I'm out there loudly braying CEFs aren't B&H instruments for me doesn't mean some funds couldn't be appropriate B&H for someone else.

Good news, several very good CEFs are far off their old premium prices right now and have now slipped down into possible bargain territory. Maybe a little perspective helps -- these same funds have been paying monthly distributions for a long time with no or minimal changes for years. .AND what they are paying appears quite in line what they are earning.
Now earnings rates rise and they fall. Right now, for example, BGX and WDI appear to be fully earning their payouts, but I wouldn't make any predictions for 2027 or 2028.
OTOH PFN and PTY have been reliable monthly payers for years now and IMO PFN is about as conservative a CEF paying over 10% as you're going to find. I'd have little problem suggesting it to my elderly cousin as a good place to invest and forget. Is there a risk? Well, of course, but I believe it's a quite reasonable one -- something that thousands of retirees live with comfotably as their dividends keep rolling reliably in.
By all means, read and learn about CEFs -- but I respectfully suggest you're NEVER going to arrive at a place where you can say, "AHA! NOW I understand CEFs and can go forth to invest confidently!" These are complicated little structures and what you see on the surface is often a long ways from the whole picture.
To my cousin I have also suggested a 90/10 portfolio of PFN/GGN because she is fearful of inflation so I gave her the 10% in GGN's gold and natural resources. (She's still on the fence, still uninvested, getting about 2% from her bank.)
OK. Here's a practical suggestion for a confidence builder. Pick any two AI sites you like and ask them both this exact question: ARE DISTRIBUTIONS OF THE PFN FUND SUSTAINABLE? Or plug in any other fund you like. Compare your answers. Good luck.

Below: from Schwab: a longer term chart for PTY showing consecutive monthly payments and showing how price has slipped back near its previous lows. (The PFN chart looks quite similar.)

 

[dickoncapecod]

Let me add (and who knows if I am right lol)...

The capital loss occurred in the past... the hit to NAV has already taken place.. IOW, the 'destruction' to the NAV already happened... the only thing happening with this kind of accounting is being able to get that capital loss to you...

Hi. Suggest "being able to get [the tax benefit of] that capital loss to you..."
Regards, Dick

 

[Semi-Retyrd]

Just an FYI, many funds, not just CEFs, have a market price and a Net Asset Value. The premiums or discounts are far less on open ended funds, but they do exist and are reported if you know where to look.

You are absolutely correct. ETFs are a good example. However, unlike CEFs they have a mechanism through authorized market makers using what are called creation units to drive the difference between the NAV and the price to a relatively small differential. This works well for ETFs dealing in highly liquid securities like VOO. For ETFs dealing in less liquid securities like ORR, the difference can be more than one percent.
I like mutual funds which only trade after the close at their NAV. Not so exciting, but at least you don't have to worry about getting the best or worst price for the day. Of course, even then the NAV is an educated guess for funds like EGRIX which trade in less liquid worldwide securities.

 

[dickoncapecod]

AIMING --
I'm a little conflicted how I might respond because I've had similar conversations with an elderly family member too frightened to invest at all. But just because I'm out there loudly braying CEFs aren't B&H instruments for me doesn't mean some funds couldn't be appropriate B&H for someone else.

Good news, several very good CEFs are far off their old premium prices right now and have now slipped down into possible bargain territory. Maybe a little perspective helps -- these same funds have been paying monthly distributions for a long time with no or minimal changes for years. .AND what they are paying appears quite in line what they are earning.
Now earnings rates rise and they fall. Right now, for example, BGX and WDI appear to be fully earning their payouts, but I wouldn't make any predictions for 2027 or 2028.
OTOH PFN and PTY have been reliable monthly payers for years now and IMO PFN is about as conservative a CEF paying over 10% as you're going to find. I'd have little problem suggesting it to my elderly cousin as a good place to invest and forget. Is there a risk? Well, of course, but I believe it's a quite reasonable one -- something that thousands of retirees live with comfotably as their dividends keep rolling reliably in.
By all means, read and learn about CEFs -- but I respectfully suggest you're NEVER going to arrive at a place where you can say, "AHA! NOW I understand CEFs and can go forth to invest confidently!" These are complicated little structures and what you see on the surface is often a long ways from the whole picture.
To my cousin I have also suggested a 90/10 portfolio of PFN/GGN because she is fearful of inflation so I gave her the 10% in GGN's gold and natural resources. (She's still on the fence, still uninvested, getting about 2% from her bank.)
OK. Here's a practical suggestion for a confidence builder. Pick any two AI sites you like and ask them both this exact question: ARE DISTRIBUTIONS OF THE PFN FUND SUSTAINABLE? Or plug in any other fund you like. Compare your answers. Good luck.

Below: from Schwab: a longer term chart for PTY showing consecutive monthly payments and showing how price has slipped back near its previous lows. (The PFN chart looks quite similar.)

View attachment 64788

You highlight a tragedy that befalls many individuals ---- a terrible fear of investment risk locks them into the world of low-yielding short-dated government guaranteed "investments," a non-strategy that needlessly, often severely, diminishes their quality of retired life.
Aside: CEFs are indeed not appropriate buy-and-hold investments, but neither traditional mutual funds, ETFs or stocks.
Regards, Dick