concerning issue with current HOA roof situation and insurance coverage

[pb4uski]

... Personally, I would have my Insurance Company (not agent) read the HOA rules before I bought any unit and insured it.

I don't see that as realistic. I doubt that any insurer is going to invest the time or take the risk of doing that (at least until there is a claim that they want to find a way to avoid paying).

 

[pb4uski]

... You need to:

1. Put a new roof on the place. Ir doesn't sound like it was a covered insurance loss. (wind, hail...) Everyone chip in and put on a new roof just like it was your own house. It sure isn't the association's insurance agent that is responsible,

2. Get your HO association to get their insurance obligations figured out. The association should buy a master policiy that covers all exterior. Asking unit owners to insure their exterior with an HO-3 on commo association property is a disaster waiting to happen

3. Have unit owners buy HO-6 policies, that include adequate limits for improvements (not the 10% that is included) plus an adequate limit for association assessments and deductibles. It's readily available. ...

That seems like a sensible approach.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I don't see that as realistic. I doubt that any insurer is going to invest the time or take the risk of doing that (at least until there is a claim that they want to find a way to avoid paying).

I was in the insurance business. I insisted on it, many times. Every time. And believe me, I invested the time. If your insurer didn't invest the time, you were working with the wrong insurer. I wouldn't touch an HOA applicant without reviewing the HOA agreement. I reviewed it with the insurer to review. They would much rather review the agreement before the claim than after. The HOA writes the rules and blames insurers when the insurers follow the HOA rules......that they wrote themselves.

As for looking for ways to avoid paying, there were just as many times they found ways that they were responsible for paying, and did.

If there is a wreck after an insurance claim with an HOA, it was the HOA's fault.

I have some questions for anyone to bring to their HOA.

- If I have a loss and the kitchen cabinets are damaged. Who's policy pays?
- If the bathroom fixtures are damaged (sink, toilet. tub...who's policy pays ?
- If the installed hardwood floors are damaged...who's policy pays?
- If the Cambria counters that came with the place when I bought it get damaged...who pays?
-If smoke smells up the place, who cleans the walls?

An HO-6 will pay accordingly to the HOA agreement. Don't blame the insurer if your HOA agreement tells them they aren't responsible.

I doubt there is an HOA director in the US that can answer any of these questions with certainty. And be right.

All of these questions are answered in the HOA agreement. If your HOA can't answer these questions....they should be able to tell you. None can, none that I've ever met.

At the end of the day, HOA's covenants determine who covers what. Trouble is, HOA's wait til after a loss. And they wrote their own rules. They should ask first. Insurance companies simply follow the rules that the association wrote themselves in their covenants.

Telling the unit owners to get an HO 3 didn't hurt them at all, it just made them pay for something they weren't responsible for. The unit owners were paying for coverage that didn't exist.

Simply stated. The association should have had a master policy that matched their covenant. They didn't. The existing master policy does cover the roof and exterior, it just may be way underinsured. The unit owners should have had HO-6 policies instead of HO-3s. Someone screwed up advising them to get HO-3's, they had more coverage than they needed, and certainly were not underinsured. Just buying something they didn't need.

Back to the OP. This isn't an insurable loss to begin with. The damage to the roof wasn't anything that would be covered by anybody's insurance policy. It wasn't an insured peril. And in my experience, shingle warranties are not that great, especially after 10 years.

I'm sorry.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Sorry for yesterday's rant. My old days at wo#rk kicked in.

To keep it kind and simple. Be careful when you buy a HOA unit and never, and I mean never rely on an insurance policy to cover you unless you bought the policy yourself.

I hate to see people disapointed with insurance, it is not a fun business to deal with. I tried my hardest for over 30 years and I still had people threaten to kill me. Over a hail damage loss to their roof...

Life is too short and I got out.

My advice to everyone here buying insurance is this. Buy from a local agent that knows your name and where you live. And buy from an insurance company that is domiciled in your state. That means they can't pullout when things get tough. EG: State Farm in Califoria.

And Finally. Don't confuse cheapest insurance with best insurance.

 

[simple girl]

I surely appreciate all of the very helpful replies and the ongoing discussion. It's been an education for me, that's for sure...

To summarize:

1) I know insurance won't cover the faulty roof shingles. That is not why I brought up insurance. Our HOA needs to replace the roof ASAP in order to GET a master policy via the HOA to cover the roof for future perils. Right now our HOA is uninsurable due to the state of the roofs.

2) I have no power make the HOA replace the roof immediately. I would if I could. They are still waiting to see if the warranty claim is honored. In the meantime, there is no roof insurance to cover any future peril. So, in the meantime, I'm trying to reduce my risk for future losses in the case of a peril. I increased my loss assessment coverage to $10K for a minimal increase in premium. My hope with that plan is that if a peril does occur, and a large special assessment is made for that peril since we have no HOA master policy for the roofs (NOT for the degrading roofs, again, I KNOW insurance doesn't cover roof degradation), then I will hopefully mitigate my personal costs due to having $10K loss assessment coverage.

So that's where I'm at. Not much else I can think to do at this time except keep pressuring the HOA board to pressure the lawyer who is trying to get Tamko to honor the warranty so we can replace the roof. I am also working on trying to get more neighbors on board to replace the roof out of pocket ASAP but I think my chances of achieving success with that approach is quite limited.

I will update on any progress we make on this topic. Again, thank you for the very helpful replies!

 

[Gremlin]

I surely appreciate all of the very helpful replies and the ongoing discussion. It's been an education for me, that's for sure...

To summarize:

1) I know insurance won't cover the faulty roof shingles. That is not why I brought up insurance. Our HOA needs to replace the roof ASAP in order to GET a master policy via the HOA to cover the roof for future perils. Right now our HOA is uninsurable due to the state of the roofs.

2) I have no power make the HOA replace the roof immediately. I would if I could. They are still waiting to see if the warranty claim is honored. In the meantime, there is no roof insurance to cover any future peril. So, in the meantime, I'm trying to reduce my risk for future losses in the case of a peril. I increased my loss assessment coverage to $10K for a minimal increase in premium. My hope with that plan is that if a peril does occur, and a large special assessment is made for that peril since we have no HOA master policy for the roofs (NOT for the degrading roofs, again, I KNOW insurance doesn't cover roof degradation), then I will hopefully mitigate my personal costs due to having $10K loss assessment coverage.

So that's where I'm at. Not much else I can think to do at this time except keep pressuring the HOA board to pressure the lawyer who is trying to get Tamko to honor the warranty so we can replace the roof. I am also working on trying to get more neighbors on board to replace the roof out of pocket ASAP but I think my chances of achieving success with that approach is quite limited.

I will update on any progress we make on this topic. Again, thank you for the very helpful replies!

Truly a mess. Condolences and good luck! Please do keep us posted.

 

[engineernerd]

Wow, I just found this article that is written specific to Florida.

This statement got my attention:

"As a general rule, the party that has the responsibility to maintain, repair or replace a specific portion of the property will also have the responsibility to insure that portion of property."

I can see why our current HOA lawyer said the association should get insurance on the roofs. I could see how individual insurance companies could contest this if claims were made.

The article goes on to say what a nightmare this can be if a claim does occur. Man I hope we do not have a claim before this whole thing gets straightened out! What a mess.

Hey, I just read that article and it does not say that individual owners are in danger of having their claims denied if they were carrying the insurance on items the HOA is supposed to maintain. It only talked about the hassles of coordinating multiple different claims for individual-units' shares of damage affecting multiple units.

Also, whenever wording includes "As a general rule" that means individual cases can be different.

From what you show, your HOA governing documents leave it largely up to the Board's discretion what insurance to carry, and this is compatible with Florida law which according to that article only requires them to carry liability insurance on behalf of Directors and employees who handle HOA funds.

So I am left wondering on what basis related to your HOA governing documents this lawyer says your insurance carrier would get away with denying claims under the roof coverage that is included in your policy.

 

[engineernerd]

I surely appreciate all of the very helpful replies and the ongoing discussion. It's been an education for me, that's for sure...

To summarize:

1) I know insurance won't cover the faulty roof shingles. That is not why I brought up insurance. Our HOA needs to replace the roof ASAP in order to GET a master policy via the HOA to cover the roof for future perils. Right now our HOA is uninsurable due to the state of the roofs.

It seems to me the condition of the roof - not anything in the HOA documents - might give your insurer a reason to deny a claim for damage that arguably would not have happened if the roof were OK. Maybe that's what the lawyer said, and someone else miscommunicated what he/she said?

Are the shingles in bad enough shape that roof leaks are a real risk? If they are staying down when the wind blows, and you don't have any areas of exposed roofing paper, you're probably OK still. But if this drags on a long time it might make sense to inspect for leaks in the attic.

 

[Aerides]

I surely appreciate all of the very helpful replies and the ongoing discussion. It's been an education for me, that's for sure...

To summarize:

1) I know insurance won't cover the faulty roof shingles. That is not why I brought up insurance. Our HOA needs to replace the roof ASAP in order to GET a master policy via the HOA to cover the roof for future perils. Right now our HOA is uninsurable due to the state of the roofs.

2) I have no power make the HOA replace the roof immediately. I would if I could. They are still waiting to see if the warranty claim is honored. In the meantime, there is no roof insurance to cover any future peril. So, in the meantime, I'm trying to reduce my risk for future losses in the case of a peril. I increased my loss assessment coverage to $10K for a minimal increase in premium. My hope with that plan is that if a peril does occur, and a large special assessment is made for that peril since we have no HOA master policy for the roofs (NOT for the degrading roofs, again, I KNOW insurance doesn't cover roof degradation), then I will hopefully mitigate my personal costs due to having $10K loss assessment coverage.

So that's where I'm at. Not much else I can think to do at this time except keep pressuring the HOA board to pressure the lawyer who is trying to get Tamko to honor the warranty so we can replace the roof. I am also working on trying to get more neighbors on board to replace the roof out of pocket ASAP but I think my chances of achieving success with that approach is quite limited.

I will update on any progress we make on this topic. Again, thank you for the very helpful replies!

One more idea since you are in FL heading into hurricane season with a sub par roof and an HOA stalling...maybe a call to your local news station would get their attention?

 

[pb4uski]

Let's presume that your declarations require the board to insure the association's common elements. I think this is typical. Also, Florida law requires condominium associations to obtain and maintain adequate property insurance based on the replacement cost of the property, as well as liability insurance for common areas.

So by deferring replacing the roofs the board is violating that declaration provision and state law. The board should be concerned about that.

You might ask the Florida DBPR for help in getting your board to smarten up.

I think the obvious solution is for the board to levy a special assessment with all deliberate speed to get the roofs replaced so they can then buy insurance as they are required to have in place by law while at the same time pursuing the claim against the shingle manufacturer.

If they get a settlement, they can consider reducing or temporarily suspending association fees to offset the previous special assessment.

 

[simple girl]

It seems to me the condition of the roof - not anything in the HOA documents - might give your insurer a reason to deny a claim for damage that arguably would not have happened if the roof were OK. Maybe that's what the lawyer said, and someone else miscommunicated what he/she said?

Are the shingles in bad enough shape that roof leaks are a real risk? If they are staying down when the wind blows, and you don't have any areas of exposed roofing paper, you're probably OK still. But if this drags on a long time it might make sense to inspect for leaks in the attic.

1. The lawyer called in to the HOA meeting, and I heard what he said myself firsthand. He said that if a covered peril occurs, homeowner's insurers typically would ask to see the covenants before paying out a claim. He said based upon the way the covenants are written, they will surely deny the claim as it is clear from the covenants that our HOA is responsible for the roofs. (I agree, it's not clear to me based upon the covenants, but I'm not a lawyer!) He didn't say it had anything to do with the current condition of the roof.

2. Yes, the shingles are bad enough that roof leaks are a real risk - in fact several homeowners have had leaks occur that required repairs. We had multiple shingles blow off when Milton went directly over us last fall. Roofing paper was exposed in multiple areas afterwards (and temporary repairs have been made throughout the community).

3. Yes, we have been inspecting our attic for leaks on a regular basis and will continue to do so. Fortunately no shingles blew off of our little section of roof.

 

[engineernerd]

1. The lawyer called in to the HOA meeting, and I heard what he said myself firsthand. He said that if a covered peril occurs, homeowner's insurers typically would ask to see the covenants before paying out a claim.

I hope your state's insurance regulator doesn't let them get away with that! The time to ask to see the covenants would have been BEFORE they wrote the policy! NOT after you've been paying for it and relying on it! They need to give you the chance to dump them and get a solid policy before you have a claim, not after it's too late to switch.

Our HOA has a lawyer on retainer, and he is always cautioning the Board against asserting its powers and rights, especially against developer/builders in the community. I guess that's safer and easier for him. In his defense, sort of, is the fact that with few exceptions lawsuits are extremely expensive, win or lose, even when one side seems to be obviously in the right. Don't ask me how I know.

Come to think, that's a strong argument in favor of just re-roofing now out of HOA funds (is there a reserve fund?) and treating any warranty payout as a pleasant surprise. If Tamko were going to be honorable about their warranty, they would have agreed to pay by now. Forcing them to pay by suing them might cost more than your HOA would get from the warranty payout.

 

[Dee]

Hi all,

We have had a single family homeowners insurance plan (HO3) for our townhouse since we purchased in 2016. We were told at the time that homeowners were required to purchase an HO3 policy, as the association's master policy did not cover the roofs and exterior walls.

Recently, however, the association has had to hire a lawyer to deal with a long drawn out warranty claim with the manufacturer who sold the HOA new shingles (new roof installed in 2015). Those shingles have since deteriorated WAY before the end of their useful life and are showing things like extensive granular loss and something about part of the roof melting and sticking to the underside. Due to the melting issue, HAZMAT will be required for proper removal. Please forgive me if I'm using the wrong terms - I do not completely understand the technical aspects.

Suffice it to say the issue was determined to not be due to faulty installation, but rather due to faulty shingles. This manufacturer has had several class action lawsuits (which we are not a part of) for this issue, unfortunately. And, also unfortunately, apparently the manufacturer has a history of dragging out warranty claims for years, like they are doing with us.

So, the lawyer hired is working on our claim with the manufacturer, but he also reviewed our HOA bylaws and made a surprising statement at our last meeting. He stated that with the way our bylaws are written, the HOA is actually responsible for any roof claims and should have a master policy that includes coverage for it. He said as it is now, if we have a roof claim, our individual HO3 policies will ask to see the bylaws, and when they see the language used, they will refuse to honor any roof claims.

Due to this new information from the lawyer, the HOA now plans to obtain a master policy that covers the roof and exterior building. HOWEVER, due to the current condition of the roof, they are unable to obtain insurance coverage. The HOA has been told they will only be eligible for coverage once the new roof is installed (which could be how long Who knows! We are going on 4 years now. Ugh.)

Basically it sounds to me like right now all homeowners are uninsured for the roof no matter what kind of policy they have. If we have a roof claim, there will surely be a hefty special assessment.

So, here I am trying to figure out why I'm paying for an HO3 policy when it sounds like we should have an H06 policy. I'm contemplating contacting our insurance agent to see if we would be able to switch, but at the same time, am nervous that somehow our insurance might drop us altogether.

Would love to hear advice on how you would approach this situation if it were you. Thank you.

I feel your pain ! Here's my educated viewpoint on your issues.

The immediate problem to be addressed are getting the roofs replaced before further damage to under-lament occurs, and ultimately rain leaking/staining interior ceilings. So where's the $$ for this ??

Should have funds in your Reserve Fund if the HOA is responsible for maintaining/replacing roofs. For instance, my patio-home ownership includes the entire exterior structure, siding and roofs) -- however, the HOA is required in the governing docs to maintain and replace the roofs at the end of their useful life. My monthly assessments is supposed to include relevant funding for this. Even though your Board missed insuring the roofs, they still may have reserve funding for the roof replacements (if they're responsible for insuring, they are most likely also responsible for replacing for whatever reason other than homeowner damages).

The Board is on the hook for failing to comply with the gov docs (those are legally binding documents). So (1) the HOA is liable for failing to insure the roofs, and (2) the HOA is liable if they failed to include roofs in the reserve fund which should pay for replacements, and finally, (3) typically, a roofer is involved between the HOA and the "manufacturer" of the shingles. If the HOA contracted with a roofer, and the roofer purchased the materials (like shingles and under-lament), then the roofer would typically be responsible for the workmanship and materials. Between the roofer and manufacturer, they should be covered by business insurance that might cover problems such as this. And the HOA will also be insured for the Board's missteps; regardless of their excuses, they are contractually bound to perform according to the governing docs. I can see all three parties sharing responsibility for their part.

I'm not a lawyer, but I worked extensively on our HOA Board as a Director and Reserve Fund Chairperson for several years, and I have career experience in real estate legal matters.

Btw, my HOA covers the insurance for all structures, including roofs and siding. The homeowners policy covers the interior AND coverage for the HOA deductible ($10k). So if my patio home burns down, a claim is placed via the HOA's insurance policy for the roof & siding replacements and issues a $10k bill to me for the deductible, which I then file a claim via my policy. That policy agents works together get claims processed correctly. My homeowner policy starts with a standard condo policy, then adds riders for the $10k (this was the recommendation from our HOA's agent who is experienced in other HOAs insurance needs like this).

One more thought: file a complaint with Better Business Bureau for your geographic area. I've had excellent results getting business problems solved just be filing well written complaints for inadequate business performance. Stick to facts that you can prove (like a contract) and take care not to defame anyone. Hopefully your Board of Directors hired only reliable businesses to perform the work and to select which insurance policies to use.

 

[simple girl]

Come to think, that's a strong argument in favor of just re-roofing now out of HOA funds (is there a reserve fund?) and treating any warranty payout as a pleasant surprise. If Tamko were going to be honorable about their warranty, they would have agreed to pay by now. Forcing them to pay by suing them might cost more than your HOA would get from the warranty payout.

I think the reserves appear well-funded - but that's assuming I'm looking at the numbers correctly! This definitely is NOT my area of expertise. FYI we are currently having a reserve study done, so I will have more confidence in my analysis then. I do have concerns that the amount that is estimated to be needed to replace the roof (in 10 years) is woefully inadequate. However in terms of being on track towards the amount currently estimated to be needed, we are appear to be funded.

Since the roof is only 10 years old, the reserves are listed as having 10 years left of "useful life" per the 2025 budget. I thought that you could only use reserves when the useful life of the line item in question was up - but again - I really don't have a full grasp of the rules regarding this. I'm sure someone here can educate me further!

The amount that is currently alloted in the reserves for a new roof is certainly much lower than the total amount needed to replace the roof, since we are only 10 years into it's "estimated life". So, even if we could use that money to replace the roof, a very large special assessment certainly would be coming. I do not understand the covenants well enough to know if the board can go ahead and decide to put a new roof on without more than 50% of owners approving that decision, but it appears to me they need >50% approval. This is per the language I quoted earlier:

"Except as otherwise specifically provided in this Declaration, any Special Assessment shall require the affirmative vote or written consent of all Members (if a Common Expense) or Owners (if a Service Area Expense) representing more than 50% of the total votes allocated to the Lots which will be subject to such Special Assessment, and the affirmative vote or written consent of Declarant, during the Development and Sale Period."

I looked up how Common Expense is defined and it is listed as:

"the actual and estimated expenses which the Association incurs, or expects to incur, for the general benefit of all owners. Common Expenses include any reasonable reserves the board finds necessary or appropriate."

Since the roof replacement is listed in the reserves, I would infer from the above that the roof is considered a "Common Expense".

So, although I wholeheartedly agree with you that the roof should just be replaced now and we hope for an eventual warranty payout, I think we may have a huge hurdle getting 50% of the owners to agree to doing that.

 

[simple girl]

I feel your pain ! Here's my educated viewpoint on your issues.

The immediate problem to be addressed are getting the roofs replaced before further damage to under-lament occurs, and ultimately rain leaking/staining interior ceilings. So where's the $$ for this ??

Should have funds in your Reserve Fund if the HOA is responsible for maintaining/replacing roofs. For instance, my patio-home ownership includes the entire exterior structure, siding and roofs) -- however, the HOA is required in the governing docs to maintain and replace the roofs at the end of their useful life. My monthly assessments is supposed to include relevant funding for this. Even though your Board missed insuring the roofs, they still may have reserve funding for the roof replacements (if they're responsible for insuring, they are most likely also responsible for replacing for whatever reason other than homeowner damages).

The Board is on the hook for failing to comply with the gov docs (those are legally binding documents). So (1) the HOA is liable for failing to insure the roofs, and (2) the HOA is liable if they failed to include roofs in the reserve fund which should pay for replacements, and finally, (3) typically, a roofer is involved between the HOA and the "manufacturer" of the shingles. If the HOA contracted with a roofer, and the roofer purchased the materials (like shingles and under-lament), then the roofer would typically be responsible for the workmanship and materials. Between the roofer and manufacturer, they should be covered by business insurance that might cover problems such as this. And the HOA will also be insured for the Board's missteps; regardless of their excuses, they are contractually bound to perform according to the governing docs. I can see all three parties sharing responsibility for their part.

I'm not a lawyer, but I worked extensively on our HOA Board as a Director and Reserve Fund Chairperson for several years, and I have career experience in real estate legal matters.

Btw, my HOA covers the insurance for all structures, including roofs and siding. The homeowners policy covers the interior AND coverage for the HOA deductible ($10k). So if my patio home burns down, a claim is placed via the HOA's insurance policy for the roof & siding replacements and issues a $10k bill to me for the deductible, which I then file a claim via my policy. That policy agents works together get claims processed correctly. My homeowner policy starts with a standard condo policy, then adds riders for the $10k (this was the recommendation from our HOA's agent who is experienced in other HOAs insurance needs like this).

One more thought: file a complaint with Better Business Bureau for your geographic area. I've had excellent results getting business problems solved just be filing well written complaints for inadequate business performance. Stick to facts that you can prove (like a contract) and take care not to defame anyone. Hopefully your Board of Directors hired only reliable businesses to perform the work and to select which insurance policies to use.

Wow so much to digest here and very interesting and helpful suggestions!!!

1) We do have funding in our reserves for roof replacement. They are only half funded since we are only 10 years into the useful life of the roof. Still, I'm hoping that means that $ could be applied to replacing the roof early, assuming that is allowed.

2) So, wouldn't we have to prove the HOA is liable for not insuring the roofs, and that would require a lawsuit against the HOA?

3) Regarding the roofer - I will have to ask the board if they have considered whether the roofer is responsible for the materials and possibly pursuing that angle. I do know the application of the shingles has been investigated and it was deemed that everything was done correctly by the roofer, and that the issue is the shingles, not the workmanship of the roofer.

4) interesting thought on the BBB. I will investigate that angle further and pass along to the board.

Thank you!

 

[pb4uski]

The Board can chose to use reserve money at any time so you don't have to wait 10 years to use that reserve money.

Also, owners can approve what is called crossutilization, granting the Board the authority to transfer reserves from one component to another if needed. Our Florida condo association routinely approve cross utilization annually. We never really used it other than the year that we replaced the roofs, where we did it extensively to reduce the special assessment to the owners for the new roofs.

Luckily, we didn't have any other large reserve expenditures scheduled for a few years so we were able to use the regular reserve assessments to replenish the reserves.

 

[simple girl]

The Board can chose to use reserve money at any time so you don't have to wait 10 years to use that reserve money.

Also, owners can approve what is called crossutilization, granting the Board the authority to transfer reserves from one component to another if needed. Our Florida condo association routinely approve cross utilization annually. We never really used it other than the year that we replaced the roofs, where we did it extensively to reduce the special assessment to the owners for the new roofs.

Luckily, we didn't have any other large reserve expenditures scheduled for a few years so we were able to use the regular reserve assessments to replenish the reserves.

Great to know boards can use the reserve money when it is needed, how the cross utilization can be used, and that the money replenished over several years. Thank you!

I wrote to the HOA manager asking if we could potentially consider replacing the roof NOW and then hope for later reimbursement via Tamko.

She replied that if we did that, we would not be able to be reimbursed as we are required to go through the warranty process in order to receive any monies from Tamko. They will not reimburse you after the fact, apparently, per the warranty terms.

She did add that we are on the last leg of this ordeal and they expect to have answers from Tamko very soon. She said she has a contractor ready to go once legal gives us the green light. They expect a response from Tamko in about 2 weeks. Well, that would be amazing...if it happens. To be continued...I will update when I know more!

 

[Global Wizzo]

Hi all,

We have had a single family homeowners insurance plan (HO3) for our townhouse since we purchased in 2016. We were told at the time that homeowners were required to purchase an HO3 policy, as the association's master policy did not cover the roofs and exterior walls.

Recently, however, the association has had to hire a lawyer to deal with a long drawn out warranty claim with the manufacturer who sold the HOA new shingles (new roof installed in 2015). Those shingles have since deteriorated WAY before the end of their useful life and are showing things like extensive granular loss and something about part of the roof melting and sticking to the underside. Due to the melting issue, HAZMAT will be required for proper removal. Please forgive me if I'm using the wrong terms - I do not completely understand the technical aspects.

Suffice it to say the issue was determined to not be due to faulty installation, but rather due to faulty shingles. This manufacturer has had several class action lawsuits (which we are not a part of) for this issue, unfortunately. And, also unfortunately, apparently the manufacturer has a history of dragging out warranty claims for years, like they are doing with us.

So, the lawyer hired is working on our claim with the manufacturer, but he also reviewed our HOA bylaws and made a surprising statement at our last meeting. He stated that with the way our bylaws are written, the HOA is actually responsible for any roof claims and should have a master policy that includes coverage for it. He said as it is now, if we have a roof claim, our individual HO3 policies will ask to see the bylaws, and when they see the language used, they will refuse to honor any roof claims.

Due to this new information from the lawyer, the HOA now plans to obtain a master policy that covers the roof and exterior building. HOWEVER, due to the current condition of the roof, they are unable to obtain insurance coverage. The HOA has been told they will only be eligible for coverage once the new roof is installed (which could be how long Who knows! We are going on 4 years now. Ugh.)

Basically it sounds to me like right now all homeowners are uninsured for the roof no matter what kind of policy they have. If we have a roof claim, there will surely be a hefty special assessment.

So, here I am trying to figure out why I'm paying for an HO3 policy when it sounds like we should have an H06 policy. I'm contemplating contacting our insurance agent to see if we would be able to switch, but at the same time, am nervous that somehow our insurance might drop us altogether.

Would love to hear advice on how you would approach this situation if it were you. Thank you.

Sorry to hear you are having this problem. I just finished filing for a warranty roof replacement. The shingles were bubbling and looks like some delamination. Atlas was the manufacturer. They paid 100% of the labor and material for the replacement.

Not sure who your HOA used, but mine was not a low cost or low bid installation. They are a 150 mph rated shingle and I’m installing the same shingle again.

Bet the next company for warranty performance and good luck. It is a mess.

 

[SecondAttempt]

This seems like a huge screwup, possibly not by the current board but certainly by past decision-makers. Personally I would probably sue the HOA and current board members to force the issue. They would probably be protected by the directors' insurance but that only means the insurance company would pay you for your damages.

I understand this is basically suing yourself, and you may be suing friends who are doing their best but I think you need to protect yourself and your future rights. Suing now could force them to make repairs that mitigate future damages.

The fact is "they" misrepresented your exposure for years. That is fraud and could even be criminal depending on who knew what and when. Even the real estate agents that sold you the property could have exposure IMO.

I'm not sure who "they" is but you deserve to know when your HOA learned of this insurance defect because they could have kept it quiet for years until they were forced to disclose it. This could have defrauded you out of years of insurance premiums not to mention risk exposure.

I am not a lawyer so please get legal advice before considering my suggestions.

 

[yclipse]

> I'm contemplating contacting our insurance agent to see if we would be able to switch

Your agent will tell you that any new policy would not cover an episode / claim that is already existing and known to you.

 

[pb4uski]

This seems like a huge screwup, possibly not by the current board but certainly by past decision-makers. Personally I would probably sue the HOA and current board members to force the issue. They would probably be protected by the directors' insurance but that only means the insurance company would pay you for your damages.

I understand this is basically suing yourself, and you may be suing friends who are doing their best but I think you need to protect yourself and your future rights. Suing now could force them to make repairs that mitigate future damages.

The fact is "they" misrepresented your exposure for years. That is fraud and could even be criminal depending on who knew what and when. Even the real estate agents that sold you the property could have exposure IMO.

I'm not sure who "they" is but you deserve to know when your HOA learned of this insurance defect because they could have kept it quiet for years until they were forced to disclose it. This could have defrauded you out of years of insurance premiums not to mention risk exposure.

I am not a lawyer so please get legal advice before considering my suggestions.

WADR, I think that is an empty rabbit hole. The only harm that the Association giving owners bad advice on what sort of insurance they should buy is the additional cost of the policy over the years. The damages would be hard to prove and as you pointed out you are suing yourself. Suing the Association makes you a pariah in the neighborhood.

As has been pointed out over and over, the failure of the shingles on the most current roof that seems likely to result in a large special assessment is NOT an insurabce event. Even if the Association had given the owners the correct advice on what insurance to purchase the special assessment for the roof would not have changed at all so there are no damages to sue for.

I think in the case the better course is for the OP to band with like-minded owners to put pressure on the Association to act asap.

 

[Dee]

Wow so much to digest here and very interesting and helpful suggestions!!!

1) We do have funding in our reserves for roof replacement. They are only half funded since we are only 10 years into the useful life of the roof. Still, I'm hoping that means that $ could be applied to replacing the roof early, assuming that is allowed.

2) So, wouldn't we have to prove the HOA is liable for not insuring the roofs, and that would require a lawsuit against the HOA?

3) Regarding the roofer - I will have to ask the board if they have considered whether the roofer is responsible for the materials and possibly pursuing that angle. I do know the application of the shingles has been investigated and it was deemed that everything was done correctly by the roofer, and that the issue is the shingles, not the workmanship of the roofer.

4) interesting thought on the BBB. I will investigate that angle further and pass along to the board.

Thank you!

With respect to Reserve Fund (RF): there is no "requirement" that that portion of RF allocated to roofing be exclusively used for roofing, assuming there is no specific language in governing documents requiring it (uncommon). Here's an angle to think about: in our HOA, our longest lived RF component is vinyl siding (pacific northwest common exterior), useful life 50 years. We are 30 years into funding that line item, but not a foreseeable replacement for another 20 years. The HOA board should be able to use these funds to replace roofs/shingles. The Board would then need to: (1) attempt to collect from the other parties, or (2) increase monthly assessments to make up the difference for siding over next 20 years, or (3) issue special assessments. Since owners are not prepared for (3), it's bound to be least favorable for them. (2) would be most easily absorbed, while (1) is a hopeful outcome.

I see confusion on insurance coverage. "Property insurance" is quite different than "business insurance". Businesses, like the roofing company, may have liability insurance for their performance.

Here's how Google/Gemini describes such coverage:

Yes, as a construction business, you can obtain liability insurance to protect against financial losses from faulty materials used on projects. This is often achieved through a combination of Commercial General Liability (CGL) insurance and potentially specific product liability or construction defect coverage. CGL insurance provides a broad base of protection against claims related to bodily injury, property damage, and defective work or products, including those caused by faulty materials

If the roofing company has such business insurance, when push becomes shove, they may cover it. But of course that means their insurance premiums will go up, so they want to resist that idea. Plus, given the particulars, it is possible their insurance may claim it's not part of their coverage -- don't know until you take the deep dive into their policy. Our HOA makes sure all business we deal with have such insurance prior to signing any contracts.

With respect to the HOA board's insurance, if they provided for such insurance (our HOA does), then the performance/actions of the board related to damages should be covered. This IS NOT property insurance, it is separate from that, this is a form of business insurance for their actions. Obviously, owners who serve as Directors and Officers of the HOA do not want exposure to liability for volunteer jobs.

Here's how Google/Gemini describes this coverage:

AI Overview
Learn more

HOAs use D&O insurance (Directors and Officers liability insurance) to cover directors and officers for their actions. This insurance protects board members and the HOA from financial losses resulting from legal action brought against them for actions taken in their official capacity. It covers defense costs and potential judgments in lawsuits.

My guess is that owners most likely wouldn't have to "sue" the Board, as the they may accept responsibility and file an insurance claim. And yes, that means D&O premiums will go up. After all, Board members are also homeowners, subject to the same issues as other owners. This insurance should cover cost of "damages" resulting from thee Board's actions.

One more for the road. A contract should exist for the roofing replacement (10 yrs ago). That contract should have specifics about performance requirements. This would fall under 'contract law' or 'tort law'. If the roofer is liable for both workmanship AND the materials they chose to use, their could be recourse to make them cover this (assuming Statute of Limitations has not run).

 

[pb4uski]

With respect to Reserve Fund (RF): there is no "requirement" that that portion of RF allocated to roofing be exclusively used for roofing, assuming there is no specific language in governing documents requiring it (uncommon). ...

Actually Dee, the first sentence is incorrect. In Florida where the OP is located, there is such a requirement.

By law, if an Association uses component reserving (which is the most common reserving approach), they can only use reserves for that component unless a majority of the owners vote to allow the Board to transfer reserve money from one or more components to another component, known as crossutilization.

 

[Dee]

Actually Dee, the first sentence is incorrect. In Florida where the OP is located, there is such a requirement.

By law, if an Association uses component reserving (which is the most common reserving approach), they can only use reserves for that component unless a majority of the owners vote to allow the Board to transfer reserve money from one or more components to another component, known as crossutilization.

Interesting ! I had heard some HOAs with governing docs requiring component spending, but that's unusual across the country. Nevertheless, I learned from your reply that some states' apparently require it as well. Do you know how common that is with respect to states' laws?

 

[Dee]

Interesting ! I had heard some HOAs with governing docs requiring component spending, but that's unusual across the country. Nevertheless, I learned from your reply that some states' apparently require it as well. Do you know how common that is with respect to states' laws?

Also, could be it is in the process of becoming more common. I know there have been changes to HOA laws regarding RF since legal problems have mounted in this area.