Diversification among PIMCO CEFs - a question

keppelbay

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A question for PIMCO CEF afficionados -

Given the similar top-down management views, not so dissimular mandates, and overall similarity in market price trends among the PIMCO CEF sibs, how do you feel about spreading your investment among several different sibs, as opposed to concentrating on one.

I'm begining to wonder if focusing on PDI, which offers the highest yield and trades higher daily volume than some of the others might not suffice.

I can see arguments both ways on this and would like to hear views from you folks.

(note moved this from the CEF monthly thread so it doesn't get lost among other topics)
 
Plot the candidates out on a chart and you’ll get your answer or at least more insight.
 

@keppelbay,​

This is a general investment concept, but it’s something I’ve applied in my own portfolio.

Warren Buffett once said: “Diversification is protection against ignorance.” He also pointed out that it works well for investors who truly know what they’re doing, while the other 95% of people are usually better off simply investing in the S&P 500, which equals concentration.

I took that idea and adapted it into my own approach:
  1. I assume I’m not smart enough to consistently pick the best individual securities, so I focus on just 2–3 funds.
  2. From a pool of funds with strong risk/reward performance over the past 1–3 years, I identify the strongest candidates.
  3. From that pool, I own the 2–3 funds that have shown the best performance in the past 1–3 months.
From years of my own research and experience, holding 10 funds often leads to regression to the mean, which, in my view, makes the effort hardly worthwhile.

Another thing I’ve learned: how and when to trade is an art. It takes years of practice, and it has to fit your temperament and personal style.

For many investors, a simpler and very effective approach is to hold up to about 5 funds and trade very little.
 
Every week I get an analysis from HOSIX manager with great risk-adjusted performance since inception.
Below is what he publish last weekend.

Geopolitics dominated the investment tape this week as the U.S. and Israel attacked Iran bringingsignificant volatility to markets. Equity indices were weak, corporate spreads widened, and crudespiked to 92$ per barrel. If that wasn’t enough, the market had to absorb a very weak non-farm payrollreport on Friday. The U.S lost 92 thousand jobs in the month of February – expectations were for again of 55 thousand. Much of the losses were in the private sector. This takes the 3-month averagepayrolls gain to 6 thousand per month and brings a discussion of near-term economic contraction to theinvestor table. We have stated on numerous occasions that we believe we are in a late-cycle economy which doesn’tguarantee a recession in the next twelve months but makes the economy more susceptible toexogenous events. With the onset of a potential protracted war in Iran, we may very well have such anevent. The most ominous market reaction to the news is the performance of the world’s safehaven,U.S. Treasuries. The flight-to-safety trade was virtually non-existent as yields rose all week andaccelerated higher even after the non-farm payroll report. 5-year inflation breakeven rates were up 20bps on the week meaning TIPS outperformed fixed-rate debt by a lot. Recall, we have mentioned therelative value in TIPS for awhile now and this remains the case in our view. A stagflationary economy puts the Federal Reserve in a difficult situation. Continued employmentlosses against the backdrop of accelerating inflation and higher commodity prices will force them tochoose between their dual mandate. We believe they will choose to bolster growth rather than fightinflation. As such we think that further curve steepening is in the cards. The 30-2 curve steepened 5bps in response to the weak payroll numbers on Friday. We would be remiss to not mention the elephant in the room – high yield. High yield spreads are stillvery tight historically and have quietly erased their year-to-date gains. Leveraged loans, meanwhile,have been exhibiting weakness for the last six months. The Chart-of-the-Week plots high yield spreadsversus the leveraged loan price index (inverted). As you can see there has been a wide divergencebetween these two asset classes. We believe there will be significant “catch-up” in the near termimplying considerable weakness in the high yield market is ahead. We have been paring back our highyield exposure for the last 18 months and the bulk of it is in oil & gas, utility retrofit, agriculture, andmilitary spending. We like these industries in this environment
 
If you have SA access ... to get this thread back to what the OP asked ...

The following is a year-old comment from someone now retired who says he has managed mutual and institutional funds for decades. He writes in knowledgeable detail, clear and reasonable and fair and civil. Being a supporter of IP rights, I won't quote SA material but I view comments there as being in the public domain. See carmelgold's Comments for all his comments.

carmelgold
@erniem Your list of 4 PIMCO tickers helps me illustrate the one thing I tend not to see in discussions of PIMCO CEFS: how similar their portfolios are. I looked up each of those 4 and refreshed on PDI as well. The Top 10 holdings are INCREDIBLY similar across those funds, the weight of the top 10 is in the low 30%s for all 5 funds (undermining the value of diversification) and the yield is really similar across the four you chose and somewhat higher on PDI. I keep NOT buying another PIMCO CEF because I'd just be adding to the bet I am making with the one I have. I happen to know a bunch of those credits individually and they are generally not remotely close to sleep-wells. I don't know what that #1 holding in PIMCO funds represents - I hope not holdings in the other identical funds. In sum, I view this strategy as a guilty pleasure because it pays such a nice dividend and I don't hold a 5% weight because that's too much. I am sure I'll regret holding it when the market tanks but because it's a CEF they won't have forced selling so the portfolio will probably mostly recover and there will be plenty of distressed credits for them to buy. So holding a modest stake in one of these biosimilar funds won't blow up my income stream while for years it has benefitted from the risk. But for those hoping for a good total return and consistent good feelings, the author's cautions are certainly fair.


--- Frank
 
I have no idea why anyone would expect a “good total return” from IOU’s when cap gains clearly come from driving earnings up over time by well managed companies.

CEF’s are leveraged cash cows. Bonds trade within a range. Leveraged bonds have a greater range. When markets tank some cash still flows while cap gains disappear for an unknown amount of time. Apples to oranges.

Given the choice between PIMCO’s expertise, we’ve invested in several, we’ve also spread things out to other areas and maybe lesser managers in my opinion which just adds more risk. I often ask myself why and probably will correct that if I make it to 85 and still know my name.

I’m just there for reliable cash flow to put off spend down as long as possible that’s all. Who better than PIMCO to provide it. So maybe 20% of those funds are handled by PIMCO.

You know people invest in Home Depot and Lowes, VTI and VOO and every growth fund has the same or similar top 10 holdings. The manager mix, expertise and culture varies just like PIMCO which also includes variable leverage. Companies borrow money and maybe decrease the growth of dividends at times or cut them. So what about all that?

Approaching 7 figures after about 16 years of income investing distributions isn’t brain surgery. I can’t do a Buffet plan, too scary, and don’t want a part time job in retirement trading. I want a tan and a lot of reliable monthly spending money in excess to our needs I can count on. A steady paycheck with raises that I have 50 years+ of experience managing.
 
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Given the choice between PIMCO’s expertise, we’ve invested in several, we’ve also spread things out to other areas and maybe lesser managers in my opinion which just adds more risk. I often ask myself why and probably will correct that if I make it to 85 and still know my name.
Can you name some of those?

Flieger
 
Every week I get an analysis from HOSIX manager with great risk-adjusted performance since inception.
Below is what he publish last weekend.

Geopolitics dominated the investment tape this week as the U.S. and Israel attacked Iran bringingsignificant volatility to markets. Equity indices were weak, corporate spreads widened, and crudespiked to 92$ per barrel. If that wasn’t enough, the market had to absorb a very weak non-farm payrollreport on Friday. The U.S lost 92 thousand jobs in the month of February – expectations were for again of 55 thousand. Much of the losses were in the private sector. This takes the 3-month averagepayrolls gain to 6 thousand per month and brings a discussion of near-term economic contraction to theinvestor table. We have stated on numerous occasions that we believe we are in a late-cycle economy which doesn’tguarantee a recession in the next twelve months but makes the economy more susceptible toexogenous events. With the onset of a potential protracted war in Iran, we may very well have such anevent. The most ominous market reaction to the news is the performance of the world’s safehaven,U.S. Treasuries. The flight-to-safety trade was virtually non-existent as yields rose all week andaccelerated higher even after the non-farm payroll report. 5-year inflation breakeven rates were up 20bps on the week meaning TIPS outperformed fixed-rate debt by a lot. Recall, we have mentioned therelative value in TIPS for awhile now and this remains the case in our view. A stagflationary economy puts the Federal Reserve in a difficult situation. Continued employmentlosses against the backdrop of accelerating inflation and higher commodity prices will force them tochoose between their dual mandate. We believe they will choose to bolster growth rather than fightinflation. As such we think that further curve steepening is in the cards. The 30-2 curve steepened 5bps in response to the weak payroll numbers on Friday. We would be remiss to not mention the elephant in the room – high yield. High yield spreads are stillvery tight historically and have quietly erased their year-to-date gains. Leveraged loans, meanwhile,have been exhibiting weakness for the last six months. The Chart-of-the-Week plots high yield spreadsversus the leveraged loan price index (inverted). As you can see there has been a wide divergencebetween these two asset classes. We believe there will be significant “catch-up” in the near termimplying considerable weakness in the high yield market is ahead. We have been paring back our highyield exposure for the last 18 months and the bulk of it is in oil & gas, utility retrofit, agriculture, andmilitary spending. We like these industries in this environment
I also trust these managers and what they say carries a lot of weight. The proof is also in the pudding and anyone eating high yield lately knows the pudding sucks.
 
I have no idea why anyone would expect a “good total return” from IOU’s when cap gains clearly come from driving earnings up over time by well managed companies.

CEF’s are leveraged cash cows. Bonds trade within a range. Leveraged bonds have a greater range. When markets tank some cash still flows while cap gains disappear for an unknown amount of time. Apples to oranges.

Given the choice between PIMCO’s expertise, we’ve invested in several, we’ve also spread things out to other areas and maybe lesser managers in my opinion which just adds more risk. I often ask myself why and probably will correct that if I make it to 85 and still know my name.

I’m just there for reliable cash flow to put off spend down as long as possible that’s all. Who better than PIMCO to provide it. So maybe 20% of those funds are handled by PIMCO.

You know people invest in Home Depot and Lowes, VTI and VOO and every growth fund has the same or similar top 10 holdings. The manager mix, expertise and culture varies just like PIMCO. So what about that?

Approaching 7 figures after about 16 years of income investing distributions wasn’t brain surgery. I can’t do a Buffet plan, too scary, and don’t want a part time job in retirement trading. I want a tan and a lot of reliable monthly spending money in excess to our needs I can count on. A steady paycheck that I have 50 years of experience managing.
Excellent!
 
I also listed them in the March CEF current holdings post. Off the top of my head. GOF,AOD,RIV,KIO,WDI,ECAT and 2 Reits DX and AGNC. PTY,PCN,PDI,PAXS,PFL, PFN,PHK.
Thanks!

Flieger
 
I love the fact that everyone who diversity too much post the same reason...I don't want to trade and be busy managing my accounts".
You can use only 5 funds, don't trade much, and have a better risk-adjusted return portfolio.
The bigger question what does trading too much mean?
Is one trade per quarter, a year, one every 3 year or 5 years equal to being a trader?
 
A question for PIMCO CEF afficionados -

Given the similar top-down management views, not so dissimular mandates, and overall similarity in market price trends among the PIMCO CEF sibs, how do you feel about spreading your investment among several different sibs, as opposed to concentrating on one.

I'm begining to wonder if focusing on PDI, which offers the highest yield and trades higher daily volume than some of the others might not suffice.

I can see arguments both ways on this and would like to hear views from you folks.

(note moved this from the CEF monthly thread so it doesn't get lost among other topics)
In February, I did exactly what you bring up. I owned PDI, PTY, and PDO because they were larger and more liquid in the PIMCO lineup. But after comparing them in testfol.io, I decided just owning PDI would suffice in terms of performance and liquidity. I sold PTY and PDO and added to PDI, now 14% of my port. The top-down PIMCO view drives a lot of their investment positioning so they are really cut from the same cloth. I just need the one hanging in my closet.
 
My simple reason for holding similar PIMCO CEFs is that although their holdings may be similar the retail buyers create disproportionate opportunities that allow me to switch around as discount/premiums and yield fluctuate.
 
My simple reason for holding similar PIMCO CEFs is that although their holdings may be similar the retail buyers create disproportionate opportunities that allow me to switch around as discount/premiums and yield fluctuate.
Back when I owned 3-4 different leveraged muni funds, think NMCO, VKI, NZF, etc I tried to take advantage of the volatility caused by the retail mind. I eventually discovered that all the chickens eventually come home to roost.
 
Back when I owned 3-4 different leveraged muni funds, think NMCO, VKI, NZF, etc I tried to take advantage of the volatility caused by the retail mind. I eventually discovered that all the chickens eventually come home to roost.
You're probably right. Maybe it is just to keep the 'monkey mind' occupied so I don't do anything even more stupid.
 
In my view, the relaitve trade differentials generally point toward trading into PDI. At some point one has to ask how much is too much.
I don't have an answer.
 
My simple reason for holding similar PIMCO CEFs is that although their holdings may be similar the retail buyers create disproportionate opportunities that allow me to switch around as discount/premiums and yield fluctuate.
When I accidentally hit reply, how do I reverse/delete:confused:
Thanks, Dick
 
PDI has a great track record. But at the end of the the day it is simply a high yield leveraged strategy and the fund owns lower quality debt.

I like that for a portion of my fixed income portfolio. But for all or most of it?

No.

As a cornerstone of my plan to generate income to fund expenses.

No.

But they are very good at what they do.

And I think diversifying into other strategies makes a lot more sense than "diversifying" into PIMCO funds with similar strategies.
 

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