Do dividends psychologically make retirement easier even if total return theory says they shouldn’t matter?

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Where did I say that it stayed down? Be specific. Reading comprehension is hard. :facepalm:
You didn't. My math skills have always been terrible but my reading comprehension is just fine. No need to be defensive. It's all good.

There's a common drumbeat (not by you,ok?) across many threads that when dividends are paid, the price drops accordingly without acknowledging that it eventually recovers. I was just pointing that out. Just used your post as a springboard.

Wasn't personal. Wasn't about you.
 
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There really is no difference between a share price reduction (dividend) vs share number reduction (sell) in terms of money received, so seems to me it is mostly psychological. However, there are other valid investment driven decisions that favor one or the other. Stocks with history of providing stable dividend tend to be stable themselves which makes for good long term holdings. Growth stocks that don't pay dividends tend to grow faster, providing higher potential overall returns, but also more risk. I think both deserve a spot in one's portfolio.
 
You didn't. My math skills have always been terrible but my reading comprehension is just fine. No need to be defensive. It's all good.

There's a common drumbeat (not by you,ok?) across many threads that when dividends are paid, the price drops accordingly without acknowledging that it eventually recovers. I was just pointing that out. Wasn't personal.
I think sometimes the small decrease in NAV when a dividend is paid is overwhelmed by the market changes.

This past week, obviously, all my stock ETFs were up daily. Had there been a quarterly dividend on one of those days, any impact on the ETF price likely would have been unnoticed.
This is especially true for my growth ETFs that have a dividend rate of around 0.4% annually...
 
You didn't. My math skills have always been terrible but my reading comprehension is just fine. No need to be defensive. It's all good.

There's a common drumbeat (not by you,ok?) across many threads that when dividends are paid, the price drops accordingly without acknowledging that it eventually recovers. I was just pointing that out. Wasn't personal.
Better companies do see the share price quickly recover. Dividend investing is about identifying and monitoring those companies. That takes time of course, and it's not for all investors.
 
It goes down but typically doesn't stay down. Over the past 30 years, my dividend payers have a yoy total return ~3X greater than dividends paid. If they stayed down, they'd eventually go to zero.
No, they would not go to zero... we assume the company is continuing to make money which is what give it value... so it makes money, stock goes up... pays dividend and stock goes down (not always exact amount but it is what they use for orders)... but company makes more money and stock goes up...
 
You didn't. My math skills have always been terrible but my reading comprehension is just fine. No need to be defensive. It's all good.

There's a common drumbeat (not by you,ok?) across many threads that when dividends are paid, the price drops accordingly without acknowledging that it eventually recovers. I was just pointing that out. Just used your post as a springboard.

Wasn't personal. Wasn't about you.
I say enough stuff that is wrong without help from you, thank you.

Whether the price recovers or not depends on the market. I'm sure there have been stocks on a long downward trend like Kodak, Xerox and other flameouts where your "eventually recovers" doesn't happen as you suggest, but I'll concede that because markets tend to trend upwards then it would be more likely than not that it eventually recovers.
 
No, they would not go to zero... we assume the company is continuing to make money which is what give it value... so it makes money, stock goes up... pays dividend and stock goes down (not always exact amount but it is what they use for orders)... but company makes more money and stock goes up...
My point exactly! When dividends are paid, the stock goes down temporarily but eventually recovers and then some.
 
I think all that PB meant is simply that when stock goes ex dividend the market exchange itself reduces the market price by the dividend amount, so there is no net gain. Of course as soon as trading starts things change for better or worse. ...But the market does adjust upon ex dividend as above. ...
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
 
I don’t know what you’re talking about - sold KODK last year at a 30% profit after owning it for 2 1/2 years.
 
My point exactly! When dividends are paid, the stock goes down temporarily but eventually recovers and then some.
It's a mistake to think that the two (dividend paid and eventual recovery of share price) are causally related. It usually happens because stocks go up more often than not. The point is, dividends aren't "free money" and there is no anchoring effect on share price post dividend. Had the dividend been retained rather than paid out, that value would still be there, just in another pocket (the share price).

Witness a company like BRK-B. Rock solid, long term profitable and a ton of cash. And intentionally no dividends. At least not since once in 1967. Or Vanguard's proprietary ETF-Sharing Technique to reduce distributions. There are reasons to prefer no or low distributions. I can't think of any except emotional to prioritize dividends.
 
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It's a mistake to think that the two (dividend paid and eventual recovery of share price) are causally related. It usually happens because stocks go up more often than not. The point is, dividends aren't "free money" and there is no anchoring effect on share price post dividend. Had the dividend been retained rather than paid out, that value would still be there, just in another pocket (the share price).

Witness a company like BRK-B. Rock solid, long term profitable and a ton of cash. And intentionally no dividends. At least not since once in 1967. Or Vanguard's proprietary ETF-Sharing Technique to reduce distributions. There are reasons to prefer no or low distributions. I can't think of any except emotional to prioritize dividends.
Agree with everything you say and not news to me.

This thread asks if dividends psychologically make retirement easier. For many upthread, myself included they do.
 
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Agree with everything you say and not news to me.

This thread asks if dividends psychologically make retirement easier. For many upthread, myself included it is.
Yes, for me as well. I look forward to the quarterly dividend income.
 
I don’t know what you’re talking about - sold KODK last year at a 30% profit after owning it for 2 1/2 years.
If you owned KODK longer then you would! I stand partially corrected but there are many past dividends where today's price is less, and in many cases much less, than the share price when the dividend was paid.
 
You need to watch for companies like AAL that take on debt to fund stock buybacks which artificially raises their stock price.
 
It's a mistake to think that the two (dividend paid and eventual recovery of share price) are causally related. It usually happens because stocks go up more often than not. The point is, dividends aren't "free money" and there is no anchoring effect on share price post dividend. Had the dividend been retained rather than paid out, that value would still be there, just in another pocket (the share price).

Witness a company like BRK-B. Rock solid, long term profitable and a ton of cash. And intentionally no dividends. At least not since once in 1967. Or Vanguard's proprietary ETF-Sharing Technique to reduce distributions. There are reasons to prefer no or low distributions. I can't think of any except emotional to prioritize dividends.
There are good risk adjusted performing stocks and funds and there are poor ones. There are good non dividend paying stocks and funds and there are poor ones. There can be academic discussions regarding generalities involving value vs. growth, small, medium and large cap in terms of portfolio construction or sector rotation for those into those topics. Some companies may prefer to offer dividends, others prefer to keep this capital and utilize for other things from debt, to acquisition, to research and development, etc. Each approach may be done wisely or poorly,

I think the anticipated risk adjusted return based on long term performance may encompass much of above. Sometimes a long term total performance graph is a simple visual but conveys a lot. But to assume a dividend is free or extra money and that the stock or fund will automatically and quickly recover the market price adjustment makes little sense. Again I would reference whether dividend capture approaches have been successful total return vehicles, inclusive of tax hit if applicable. And those approaches are for frequent flippers of stocks and funds. See my signature incidentally proactively offered for ancedotal accounts of such.

My advice for what it is worth, is if like a decent dividend with a stock or fund, fine. Just pick one with good risk adjusted performance and maybe consider not having these, or any one category, represent your entire portfolio. But definitely the former item if have to choose. Beware the blind appeal of high yield.
 
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Yes, but over 50% of the companies owned by BRK-B are dividend producing companies. They have tons of cash because of the billions in dividends received every year.
I think you mean over 50% of the stocks owned by BRK-B.

Berkshire Hathaway owns many non-publicly traded companies along with many stocks.
 
Late to the thread, but with dividends, one avoids selling stock in a down market.
As pointed out several times in this thread, why would one HAVE to sell stocks in a down market (assuming they need the money to spend)? Many investors who hold stocks for their growth potential ALSO hold some stable assets that they can turn to for income in a down market.

Having some stable income you can count on is important for most of us. One way or another most of us build a portfolio that has one stable component be it dividend stocks, CD/bond ladder, rental income, MM account, etc.
Exactly. A focus on dividends is just one approach to the problem of weathering economic downturns. We all face that same problem. Yet we approach that problem in different ways.

Agree with you fully. All roads lead to Rome.
So, if dividends and other approaches to weathering economic downturns, such as CD/bond ladders, money market accounts, rental income, etc., are all equally reasonable--perhaps even roughly equivalent math-wise--what is it about the dividend approach that seemingly gets it an outsized amount of love from investors? "I am a dividend investor," someone proclaims. "Well, I guess I am a total-return investor, another person shrugs. What is it about dividends? Is it in fact merely the "psychological" aspect that the OP suggested?

A number of posts upthread, someone suggested that dividends are, in effect, a company relieving investors of the decision whether to sell stock to generate income. I really liked that characterization of what dividends are. The company is divesting a portion of their balance sheet in the form of dividends to shareholders and, as a result, impacting the value of the stock the shareholders continue to hold. But to the investor, the stock looks like it is bouncing back, more or less holding its value (though it may have increased more had the dividend not been issued), and of course the number of shares held is unchanged.
 
How can psychology be used as an excuse?
Investing requires a foundation in math, logic, and a solid understanding of how markets actually work.
The argument that selling shares—especially in a down market—doesn't really hold up.

Below is a story. The story is about stocks to keep it simple.

The Story of Two Families and Their Stock Choices

In a quiet suburban street in the U.S., two families lived side by side. Both families had similar lifestyles and expenses. The husbands worked for the same company, and both wives were nurses. Each family had two kids, and in many ways, their lives mirrored each other—except when it came to investing.

Family A: The high-tech (or STEM) Enthusiasts
Family A was always ahead of the curve. They believed in investing in products and companies they personally used and loved, especially those that seemed to explode in popularity. Back in the early 2000s, they noticed a shift at work. The old monitors with green text were being replaced, and they were now using Microsoft products. Impressed by their efficiency, they decided to buy Microsoft stock (MSFT).
As the years went on, Family A became enamored with Apple products for their sleek design, simplicity, and reliability. They were early adopters of iPods, then iPhones, and eventually, they bought stock in Apple, watching the company’s explosive growth. They didn’t stop there—when Netflix became their go-to entertainment, they couldn’t resist buying shares. Then came Amazon, a company they loved for its convenience and service. They bought in again.
At the same time, they loved and used Google Maps and their search engine FOR FREE. They also switched to streaming with YouTube TV. Of course, they owned the stock too
By the time Family A was ready to retire, their portfolio had grown significantly—thanks to their investments in the likes of Microsoft, Google, Apple, Netflix, and Amazon. They had retired 10 years earlier than they originally planned because their investments had soared. Their portfolio had outperformed expectations, giving them the freedom to retire comfortably. At retirement, they needed a paycheck replacement, but they understood there was little difference between selling shares or receiving dividends. The key was to keep their portfolio steady and ride the market’s inevitable volatility. They didn’t try to time the market, avoid downturns, or buy the latest hot stock—they simply held on for the long haul.

But there was one problem at retirement: the decision-making process. They didn’t want to be involved in picking which stocks to sell and when. They didn’t want to worry about managing individual positions.
So, Family A made a simple, efficient choice. They took part of their money and invested it in FXAIX=SP500, which tracked the overall market. In just two minutes, they set up an automatic sell order for $8,000 (pick another number) to be withdrawn on the first of each month—every month, without fail. They didn’t have to worry about deciding what to sell; the decision was automated, and the plan was set to last for years.

Years passed, and at age 75, Family A had become tired of managing individual stocks. Following the advice of Warren Buffett, they shifted most of their wealth into 90% VOO (S&P 500 ETF) and 10% VGSH (a short-term government bond ETF)—a simple, low-maintenance, and diversified portfolio. They lived longer, without the stress of constantly managing their investments. The financial freedom allowed them a comfortable, worry-free retirement.

Family B: The Dividend Loyalists
In contrast, Family B was loyal to the old-school approach. They believed in investing in well-established, “stable” companies—the ones that paid reliable dividends. This was a strategy that had worked well before the tech revolution, and they stuck to it. Great companies, they thought, paid dividends as proof of their strong business foundations.

While Family A was riding the tech wave, Family B stayed the course, investing in companies that had proven track records but weren’t always at the forefront of innovation. They believed in stability and income generation through dividends, but their portfolio didn’t grow as rapidly as Family A’s. They were content, but over the years, they watched as their neighbors retired earlier and lived comfortably.

The Price of Stability
By the time Family B was ready to retire, they had to work 10 more years than Family A. The pressure of working longer took a toll on them, and even when they finally stopped working, they didn’t have the same financial cushion. Their portfolio had provided some income, but it had lagged behind Family A’s growth. Without the exponential growth of tech stocks, they struggled to keep up with inflation and rising healthcare costs.

The Takeaway
Family A’s willingness to embrace growth stocks, particularly in the tech sector, led to a much larger portfolio by the time of retirement. Their decision to automate their withdrawals and focus on low-maintenance, diversified investing allowed them to live a comfortable, stress-free retirement. In contrast, Family B’s focus on dividends and old guard companies led to a slower-growing portfolio, leaving them working longer than they had hoped.

The moral of the story? Embrace change, automate when you can, and focus on long-term growth. While dividends are important, they aren't better in the long term.

================

On the other hand, I never believed in buy and hold and LT investing. I never invested based on the past.
I invested based on what works lately.
I invested in LC tilting growth during 1995-2000 and after 2010. During 2000-10 I was in value, SC, and international.
The $64K question is how to do it. This is where you need to spend your time and efforts.
 
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We have a bit of everything, Tech, S&P 500, Total Market, Value stocks and now some bond-like funds. We are not forced to sell anything in a down market but we do selectively liquidate ad hoc when we want to raise more money. Even if the market is down for the next few years, we do not need to sell any of the growth funds. For us it is not about one or the other. Having a mix works for us.
 
How can psychology be used as an excuse?
Investing requires a foundation in math, logic, and a solid understanding of how markets actually work.
The argument that selling shares—especially in a down market—doesn't really hold up.

Below is a story. The story is about stocks to keep it simple.

The Story of Two Families and Their Stock Choices

In a quiet suburban street in the U.S., two families lived side by side. Both families had similar lifestyles and expenses. The husbands worked for the same company, and both wives were nurses. Each family had two kids, and in many ways, their lives mirrored each other—except when it came to investing.

Family A: The high-tech (or STEM) Enthusiasts
Family A was always ahead of the curve. They believed in investing in products and companies they personally used and loved, especially those that seemed to explode in popularity. Back in the early 2000s, they noticed a shift at work. The old monitors with green text were being replaced, and they were now using Microsoft products. Impressed by their efficiency, they decided to buy Microsoft stock (MSFT).
As the years went on, Family A became enamored with Apple products for their sleek design, simplicity, and reliability. They were early adopters of iPods, then iPhones, and eventually, they bought stock in Apple, watching the company’s explosive growth. They didn’t stop there—when Netflix became their go-to entertainment, they couldn’t resist buying shares. Then came Amazon, a company they loved for its convenience and service. They bought in again.
At the same time, they loved and used Google Maps and their search engine FOR FREE. They also switched to streaming with YouTube TV. Of course, they owned the stock too
By the time Family A was ready to retire, their portfolio had grown significantly—thanks to their investments in the likes of Microsoft, Google, Apple, Netflix, and Amazon. They had retired 10 years earlier than they originally planned because their investments had soared. Their portfolio had outperformed expectations, giving them the freedom to retire comfortably. At retirement, they needed a paycheck replacement, but they understood there was little difference between selling shares or receiving dividends. The key was to keep their portfolio steady and ride the market’s inevitable volatility. They didn’t try to time the market, avoid downturns, or buy the latest hot stock—they simply held on for the long haul.

But there was one problem at retirement: the decision-making process. They didn’t want to be involved in picking which stocks to sell and when. They didn’t want to worry about managing individual positions.
So, Family A made a simple, efficient choice. They took part of their money and invested it in FXAIX=SP500, which tracked the overall market. In just two minutes, they set up an automatic sell order for $8,000 (pick another number) to be withdrawn on the first of each month—every month, without fail. They didn’t have to worry about deciding what to sell; the decision was automated, and the plan was set to last for years.

Years passed, and at age 75, Family A had become tired of managing individual stocks. Following the advice of Warren Buffett, they shifted most of their wealth into 90% VOO (S&P 500 ETF) and 10% VGSH (a short-term government bond ETF)—a simple, low-maintenance, and diversified portfolio. They lived longer, without the stress of constantly managing their investments. The financial freedom allowed them a comfortable, worry-free retirement.

Family B: The Dividend Loyalists
In contrast, Family B was loyal to the old-school approach. They believed in investing in well-established, “stable” companies—the ones that paid reliable dividends. This was a strategy that had worked well before the tech revolution, and they stuck to it. Great companies, they thought, paid dividends as proof of their strong business foundations.

While Family A was riding the tech wave, Family B stayed the course, investing in companies that had proven track records but weren’t always at the forefront of innovation. They believed in stability and income generation through dividends, but their portfolio didn’t grow as rapidly as Family A’s. They were content, but over the years, they watched as their neighbors retired earlier and lived comfortably.

The Price of Stability
By the time Family B was ready to retire, they had to work 10 more years than Family A. The pressure of working longer took a toll on them, and even when they finally stopped working, they didn’t have the same financial cushion. Their portfolio had provided some income, but it had lagged behind Family A’s growth. Without the exponential growth of tech stocks, they struggled to keep up with inflation and rising healthcare costs.

The Takeaway
Family A’s willingness to embrace growth stocks, particularly in the tech sector, led to a much larger portfolio by the time of retirement. Their decision to automate their withdrawals and focus on low-maintenance, diversified investing allowed them to live a comfortable, stress-free retirement. In contrast, Family B’s focus on dividends and old guard companies led to a slower-growing portfolio, leaving them working longer than they had hoped.

The moral of the story? Embrace change, automate when you can, and focus on long-term growth. While dividends are important, they aren't better in the long term.

================

On the other hand, I never believed in buy and hold and LT investing. I never invested based on the past.
I invested based on what works lately.
I invested in LC tilting growth during 1995-2000 and after 2010. During 2000-10 I was in value, SC, and international.
The $64K question is how to do it. This is where you need to spend your time and efforts.
I really just wanted to get us to Post #250.

Nice overly simplified story. I don't think anyone here would fall into Family B's story. Most here have more than one approach. Or used more than one approach to get to retirement, meaning buy and hold, index, bonds, real estate, etc..
 
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You didn't. My math skills have always been terrible but my reading comprehension is just fine. No need to be defensive. It's all good.

There's a common drumbeat (not by you,ok?) across many threads that when dividends are paid, the price drops accordingly without acknowledging that it eventually recovers. I was just pointing that out. Just used your post as a springboard.

Wasn't personal. Wasn't about you.
Are you suggesting the price recovery is a result of the dividend payout? For example a $10 stock pays .25 dividend so price drops to $9.75 but rises at some point to $10.05. Would the .30 rise happen if they did not pay the dividend?
 
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