Early 50s job loss --> emotionally justify “barista” FIRE?

Diogenes

Recycles dryer sheets
Joined
Jul 22, 2024
Messages
99
Location
SoCal
Hi everyone – first post here! My opening question isn’t about finances (safe withdrawal rate, sequence of return risk, expected expenses, 60/40 allocation, defined-benefit vs. defined-contribution, call-options on Nvidia, pork belly futures,…), but about emotions.

Some people struggled in their youth, finding themselves say at age 30, essentially with nothing… or at least, nothing in a material sense. Zero net worth. Lousy job. Poor prospects. Then they had an epiphany… got it together, bootstraps, bull by horns, Horatio Alger books, etc. 30 years later, they’re affluent, looking back with righteous self-congratulation, on how they turned their lives around. Emotionally, they’re secure.

Others started at some tender age, initially as textbook example to emulate. No avocado toast. Coffee brewed at home. Room-mates, Roth IRA, S&P 500, dollar cost averaging, etc. Career looks solid. Life looks solid. But then the excrement hit the wire-mesh-encased indoor propeller. Even if the finances are for argument’s sake secure, emotionally, such a person… wouldn’t be.

The second above variant, in more modest form, is my story. Portfolio stayed the course, but career blew-up in my mid 40s. Some green-shoots of recovery thence, but then a layoff in my early 50s. The lifelong plan was FI without RE. Fill the burlap sack with shekels, but don’t abandon my stall at the market. Instead, the authorities came around, closing my stall.

Personal details: no dependents (no spouse, kids or living parents), no debts (also no house), no roots (a mistake – but a topic for a different time), decent health (knock on wood), no costly hobbies. As for the “barista” part, my likely gig is part-time teaching at the local college, as adjunct. It offers just enough salve for wounded vanity, that one can (with some stretching) convince oneself, that one remains active in the field. Where would we be, without our delusions?

After the prolix intro, the questions: how do we wrangle our emotions to allow ourselves to accept premature conclusion of our careers? In what sense ought we to keep scurrying to enable a second act? When/how does the push – layoff! – meld with the pull, into declaring oneself semi-retired? How do we convince ourselves, that it’s going to be OK… without getting mired in delusions? In short… how do we master our emotions?
 
My story is similar to yours, in that I saved and invested over the years, and my career ended at age 45. At that point, I had just about enough in the stash to afford retirement, provided I could accept a modest material standard of living. I didn't want to reinvent myself in the workplace. The freedom of retirement was more appealing than continuing to work, so I opted for the former.

However, if finances had dictated that I needed to continue working, I would have done just that, and would have found a way to deal with it. I think of life as a journey. The trip is not always purely pleasurable, but there is something to be said for full engagement. To employ an overused phrase and concept, you are the protagonist in your own story, so get out there and continue writing that tale.
 
After I retired at 58 I taught one college class every semester for 8 years and absolutely loved it. I made 21k/year so the pay was decent and how I got my username:)).
 
... After the prolix intro, the questions: how do we wrangle our emotions to allow ourselves to accept premature conclusion of our careers? In what sense ought we to keep scurrying to enable a second act? When/how does the push – layoff! – meld with the pull, into declaring oneself semi-retired? How do we convince ourselves, that it’s going to be OK… without getting mired in delusions? In short… how do we master our emotions?

You can't control everything, but you can control you. Just because your career concluded prematurely doesn't mean that it was you... it could have just meant that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

What would the point of a second act be? Perhaps redemption of sorts that a couple people on the face of the earth recognize? Not worth it IMO unless yon need the money.

Easy for me to say, but get over it and move on to the more important things in life.
 
"Redemption" would be a large factor. This isn't my story, but let's imagine...

John Doe is a successful attorney, prized for his pugilistic courtroom skills, attracting the highest-dollar clients and the highest-profile cases. One day, Mr. Doe gets a particularly thorny client... a bit slick, borderline unethical, but sympathetic, and certainly intriguing. Attorney Doe makes a suggestion, that the client do such-and-such to improve his situation. A few months later, the client is indicted for various crimes, and Mr. Doe is accused of assisting his client in the furtherance of a crime. Doe doesn't get convicted himself, but gets disbarred, losing his job, his livelihood and his reputation. Former friends shun him. Trade-journals no longer ask that he perform peer-review. He has, quite literally, been cancelled.

Doe retires to his ranch in Montana, spending time hunting, raising livestock and writing poetry. But something isn't quite right. He can't leave things be! So, he applies for jobs as paralegal, maybe taking notes, maybe assisting in writing briefs, or whatever it is, that legally-trained but unlicensed people can do. Eventually he applies for reinstatement to the Bar. By then, he's an old man, well beyond the FIRE demographic, but he seeks to return to professional practice, perhaps a public defender, for... redemption.

What do we make of Attorney Doe? Was the slaying of his internal demons, heroic, or fatuous?
 
Complex interesting writing style you have.
I volunteered for a layoff at 55; beat them to it. Figured I could still get another Wall St job, but to no avail and retired at 57.
I managed 72 peeps and had my ego stroked every day. However within 1 year of retirement I had no contact with any former colleagues from any job.
I don't miss it one bit. Perhaps because I play Pickleball at a very high level and get comments every day including 2 shots named after me, that is my substitute of ego satisfaction.
If I found this site in 2002, I would have retired earlier. Nothing better than retirement for me. No need for volunteering, part time jobs, etc.
 
... What do we make of Attorney Doe? Was the slaying of his internal demons, heroic, or fatuous?
Fatuous. What I make of Attorney Doe is an apalling lack of self-confidence. He knows that he did nothing wrong but that his corrupt client put him in a bad situation that ended up not going his way. Cie' la vie/wrong place, wrong time.

Go back to the Montana ranch and enjoy life... who cares what some people who don't know the whole story think.

Better to not practice at all than to waste his talents as a paralegal... that is embarassing.
 
Fatuous. What I make of Attorney Doe is an apalling lack of self-confidence. He knows that he did nothing wrong but that his corrupt client put him in a bad situation that ended up not going his way. Cie' la vie/wrong place, wrong time.

Go back to the Montana ranch and enjoy life... who cares what some people who don't know the whole story think.

Better to not practice at all than to waste his talents as a paralegal... that is embarassing.
Attorney Doe may also benefit from working on his anger that may be fueling this "desire" to get back into the same type of work.

If you find yourself needing to work, find a job you might enjoy, not a revenge tour.
 
I started out well, undergraduate and graduate engineering and MBA in econometrics. The best thing that ever happened to me was in 1984, 5 years out of college, finished MSEE and was in an MBA program while working full-time and our project got cancelled and I got laid off at the age of 27 as the entire company was shutdown when the funds dried up. Times were good in engineering and I had multiple offers quickly and settled into a nice software engineering career. My career was on the rise and I was doing really well for my age group but still hadn't started saving much yet. One thing that layoff taught me was to never stop learning, never stop developing and abandon my current skill sets too early rather than too late. The software business changes and those who fail to leave their comfort zone get forced into retirement or career downsizing early and I had this fear that drove me to never be that guy. I'm 67 and plan to retire next year and have achieved peak earnings. I look back and the amount of professional discomfort and uncertainty that I endured was almost super-human, the pain I put myself through in order to avoid being washed up before it was my time.

Financially, the best thing that ever happened to me was I started listening to Bob Brinker's radio show Moneytalk on KGO-810 every Sat and Sun for years. His philosophy predates Bogleheads but Bogleheads is essentially the same strategy with diversification, low expense ratio index funds, etc. I followed Bob's advice and reached critical mass (in NorCal about $4M investable assets) about 14 years ago through steady grinding and not deviating from Bob's Portfolio 1. About 8 years ago it had doubled because of some bull markets and keeps growing and compounding slowly but surely.

I'm not sure how many Bob Brinker or Boglehead disciples there are here but you'all have done very well following this path, there is no way you haven't done well. Bob Brinker retired and I have not studied Bogleheads enough to know everything about it but if anyone today asks me for advice I would tell them to study Bogleheads, think about what you read there and PATIENTLY execute your plan accordingly.
 
I quit my job 2 years ago at 54 yrs because I was no longer being challenged. I figured I'd take some time off and figure out a path back to some sort of p/t or gig work. Since then the bottom of my industry has fallen out and there's slim chance I'll be going back. Not that I really want to.

However, the quest for meaningful engagement is forever on my mind and I haven't figured it out. I don't really mind the "premature conclusion" to my career as much as my failure to imagine a more fulfilling path now that I have my freedom. Hobbies are fine but not cutting it.

My suggestion is to investigate some life design blogs/books/podcasts and think about how you want to fill your time.

PS it took me over a year to decompress, so if you've been working hard for a long time you might want to embrace chilling out for a few months and enjoy the fruits of your labor. Good luck!
 
After the prolix intro, the questions: how do we wrangle our emotions to allow ourselves to accept premature conclusion of our careers? In what sense ought we to keep scurrying to enable a second act? When/how does the push – layoff! – meld with the pull, into declaring oneself semi-retired? How do we convince ourselves, that it’s going to be OK… without getting mired in delusions? In short… how do we master our emotions?

Mine hasn't been prematurely concluded yet, but I've had two long bouts of undesired unemployment (5 months back in 2001-2002 and 11 months in 2017-2018) that were illustrative. The first one I was broke (had sunk all my non-retirement savings into my startup game studio with my friend) and dependent on my GF for room and board. It was crushing and depressing. The second I was FI for existing (though not for my desired lifestyle), and supported myself off my savings and then liquidating a little of my non-tax deferred investments. It was empowering and made it clear to me that I was totally ok to RE whenever I can afford it for the lifestyle I want.

From what I can tell, the key is in all the cases, figure out what YOU want, then pursue that. I, at least, convince myself it will be ok by modeling out my finances and knowing what I can afford to spend, and what my goal to get to is. It isn't a matter of delusions or fears at that point, it is a matter of math combined with trusting in the sum of research on the topic.

As far as adapting to giving up a career, my dad went from business back to academia for his third act (first act was a professor, that paid poorly and so early in my life he went into the business world for his second act) and he adored it. He got paid decently by many people's standards, but a tiny fraction of what he made as a CTO or COO, but he always said not to tell his colleagues that working in academia felt like being retired to him. He found the teaching rewarding for its own right, so if it is something you enjoy, revel in the opportunity to explore that.

For myself, I've thought about career and identity a fair bit. I design video games, and it is clear I am not going to end up famous, and that's ok. I love the work I do, I will do it as long as there is the opportunity to keep doing it, and when it goes away, that's fine. Life is easy to fill with friends, exercise, walking the dogs, making meals for the people you love, avoiding doing housework, doing housework, etc. :p If your identity is too heavily built around your work, this is the opportunity to redefine that, to figure out who YOU are, rather than WHAT you do. Even if you find the next work gig and keep working, you seem to have identified that too much of you comes from the career, so find some space for you, for exploring who you are, what you want. Money is just a tool. A really nice one that I like to have, but by itself it isn't the key, you want it combined with knowing yourself and creating a life that works for you regardless of what work you have.

Anyway, just my take on it. :p
 
Mine hasn't been prematurely concluded yet, but I've had two long bouts of undesired unemployment (5 months back in 2001-2002 and 11 months in 2017-2018) that were illustrative. ...

...I've thought about career and identity a fair bit. I design video games, and it is clear I am not going to end up famous, and that's ok. I love the work I do, I will do it as long as there is the opportunity to keep doing it, and when it goes away, that's fine. Life is easy to fill with friends, exercise, walking the dogs, making meals for the people you love, avoiding doing housework, doing housework, etc. :p If your identity is too heavily built around your work, this is the opportunity to redefine that, to figure out who YOU are, rather than WHAT you do....
Excellent points!

Career = identity, is particularly apt for “creative” professions. Writers. Scientists. Persons whose work-output is something archival, beyond corporate profits or TPS cover sheets, beyond the power-trip of the oak-paneled office, or the legions of smarmy acolytes taking notes whenever one speaks… beyond all of that (however exaggerated), is a feeling of craftsmanship, like a 17th century Dutch painter’s studio.

Let’s develop that metaphor. Imagine that it really is the 17th century, and you are one of Rembrandt’s most promising assistants. Your handiwork (uncredited) is in several paintings, that would become core to the Western Canon. Those horses in the background of “The Abduction of Europa”? You painted them! One day, a young lady comes into the studio, asking for you by name, to paint her portrait, in a risqué pose. You agree. After sedulous labor, it becomes one of your finest works! Delighted, cooing with barely-repressed coquettish joy, she takes the painting. A week later, a rather incensed and scarlet-faced older fellow, with a clutch of soldiers behind him, storms into the studio. Turns out, it’s her dad… not at all amused with the painting! Also turns out, he’s a major figure about town, with pull in the courts and the constabulary. One thing leads to another… you lose your job in the studio. Blacklisted from the art world, you even get exiled from Amsterdam.

But unlike Rembrandt himself, who was embattled in bankruptcies, you were an early investor in the Dutch East India Company, and were doing financially quite well. Spectacular collapse of your career, and resulting unemployment, didn’t forestall a 17th century version of FIRE. You put your guilders into wooden chests, loaded them on a ship sailing across the Channel, and decamped to England, where you bought a house in the countryside.

Back to the 21st century, your (now I'm referring to the person whom I quoted, rather than a generic second-person) video game designs might not make you as famous as the fellow who developed Tetris, but there is intensely creative aspect to your work, too. And whereas you could conceivably do something with computers on your own, as a retiree, it really takes membership in a gaming company, to make meaningful contributions to an actual product. Letting go of that association – and hence, of your continued vitality as a game-developer – can’t possibly be easy.
 
After the prolix intro, the questions: how do we wrangle our emotions to allow ourselves to accept premature conclusion of our careers? In what sense ought we to keep scurrying to enable a second act? When/how does the push – layoff! – meld with the pull, into declaring oneself semi-retired? How do we convince ourselves, that it’s going to be OK… without getting mired in delusions? In short… how do we master our emotions?
About a year ago I asked myself, and the board, how do we verify that we are retiring early for the right reasons? Is therapy in order? almost like a due diligence thing. My question then was "am I retiring early for the right reasons, or might an adjustment clear my thinking and give me back the career I once enjoyed."

I ponder that from time to time, but not enough to alter my course, which remains to pull the plug by July 2025, or sooner.
 
About a year ago I asked myself, and the board, how do we verify that we are retiring early for the right reasons? Is therapy in order? almost like a due diligence thing. My question then was "am I retiring early for the right reasons, or might an adjustment clear my thinking and give me back the career I once enjoyed."

I ponder that from time to time, but not enough to alter my course, which remains to pull the plug by July 2025, or sooner.
"Due diligence" is apt phrasing, as we're making an investment... in ourselves, as impending retirees. We're about to run the business of ourselves. Due diligence means not literally comparing safe withdrawal rates with expenditure forecasts, though doubtless that's a useful exercise too. Rather, it means assessing whether such investing-in-oneself is timely. Whether the business-plan, as it were, of early-retirement, is credible. The profit of such a business, would be personal happiness, the fulfillment of oneself as a person, now independent of the animating institution (the employer).

These are self-evidently crucial things for early retirement in the abstract. I have (hypothetically) a job, I have a portfolio, I have debts, I have dreams, I have this and that... OK, assessing that, what's my FIRE glide-path? That is essentially the premise behind this whole Forum, isn't it? Well, the caveat now, is the explosive ruction, of losing one's job, oh-so-close to what would have been a hypothetical early retirement, using our pat due-diligence process. We are being asked spontaneously to invest. There you sit, in your leather recliner, smoking a cigar, calm idyllic evening, puffy clouds, azure sunset... and the phone rings. It's the fellow from the investment firm, profusely apologizing for disturbing you on a weekend, but you know, it's now or never.... the funding round closes at 8 am on Monday, East Coast time, and... better write that check now, or forget it. Bit of crunch, isn't it?
 
Hi everyone – first post here! My opening question isn’t about finances (safe withdrawal rate, sequence of return risk, expected expenses, 60/40 allocation, defined-benefit vs. defined-contribution, call-options on Nvidia, pork belly futures,…), but about emotions.

Some people struggled in their youth, finding themselves say at age 30, essentially with nothing… or at least, nothing in a material sense. Zero net worth. Lousy job. Poor prospects. Then they had an epiphany… got it together, bootstraps, bull by horns, Horatio Alger books, etc. 30 years later, they’re affluent, looking back with righteous self-congratulation, on how they turned their lives around. Emotionally, they’re secure.

Others started at some tender age, initially as textbook example to emulate. No avocado toast. Coffee brewed at home. Room-mates, Roth IRA, S&P 500, dollar cost averaging, etc. Career looks solid. Life looks solid. But then the excrement hit the wire-mesh-encased indoor propeller. Even if the finances are for argument’s sake secure, emotionally, such a person… wouldn’t be.

The second above variant, in more modest form, is my story. Portfolio stayed the course, but career blew-up in my mid 40s. Some green-shoots of recovery thence, but then a layoff in my early 50s. The lifelong plan was FI without RE. Fill the burlap sack with shekels, but don’t abandon my stall at the market. Instead, the authorities came around, closing my stall.

Personal details: no dependents (no spouse, kids or living parents), no debts (also no house), no roots (a mistake – but a topic for a different time), decent health (knock on wood), no costly hobbies. As for the “barista” part, my likely gig is part-time teaching at the local college, as adjunct. It offers just enough salve for wounded vanity, that one can (with some stretching) convince oneself, that one remains active in the field. Where would we be, without our delusions?

After the prolix intro, the questions: how do we wrangle our emotions to allow ourselves to accept premature conclusion of our careers? In what sense ought we to keep scurrying to enable a second act? When/how does the push – layoff! – meld with the pull, into declaring oneself semi-retired? How do we convince ourselves, that it’s going to be OK… without getting mired in delusions? In short… how do we master our emotions?
If you want to teach some and enjoy a few years in an expat lifestyle, consider applying to some of the colleges in Asia or Middle East.

Just a way to expand your world.
 
After I retired at 58 I taught one college class every semester for 8 years and absolutely loved it. I made 21k/year so the pay was decent and how I got my username:)).
Wow... I would have taught at that pay...

I was 56 and wanted to teach but the local community college wanted to pay a whopping $1800 per course taught... and I was shocked how intense the application was... seemed you had to have 100 references (jk, but a lot) and other things... yet, they did not have enough people to teach (with that pay I wonder why)... I decided it was not worth the trouble and never did apply...
 
Wow... I would have taught at that pay...

I was 56 and wanted to teach but the local community college wanted to pay a whopping $1800 per course taught... and I was shocked how intense the application was... seemed you had to have 100 references (jk, but a lot) and other things... yet, they did not have enough people to teach (with that pay I wonder why)... I decided it was not worth the trouble and never did apply...
The job literally fell into my lap because of my professional reputation and experience and I never even applied. Interesting enough the pay varies at our university by the funding source. Some courses pay a flat fee of 4500 but my course paid per student and was capped at 39 students during regular semesters and 25 in summer.
 
The job literally fell into my lap because of my professional reputation and experience and I never even applied. Interesting enough the pay varies at our university by the funding source. Some courses pay a flat fee of 4500 but my course paid per student and was capped at 39 students during regular semesters and 25 in summer.
University teaching at the adjunct level tends to pay $5000-$10,000 per semester course. This is mostly teaching grad students, or the upper-level undergrad courses, typically because the university doesn't have faculty with the availability or (sometimes) the knowledge-base.

If the course materials are already developed, then the effective hourly rate is OK. If one has to develop the course from scratch (write out the notes, make the HW and exams and so on), then the workload is prodigious, and the effective hourly rate,... not. This is why adjunct-teaching is culturally aimed at people who have a day-job, who are moonlighting; or well-off retirees with pensions. For a "barista" FIRE situation, it is more prestigious than Starbucks, but the latter is more remunerative, if we're going to compare.

I'm starting at a local U, in a couple of weeks... one course, 4 credit-hours. The notes are already developed, but... call it snide arrogance, but I have reservations about their quality. Time to swallow one's pride?
 
The course was developed but I was required to keep it updated and wasn’t paid to do that. I was fine with that because I loved teaching it. I also had to rewrite the tests every few years.
 
University teaching at the adjunct level tends to pay $5000-$10,000 per semester course.
What?! Compensation of $2000-$3500 is more typical. That means someone teaching 10 classes a year is earning below $35k/year. I believe the average is under $27k/yr for adjuncts. Slave wages.

 
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