"Early" retirement and have a portfolio that last in perpetuity.

[PristineSound]

I say anything within the law of the land (or corporate) should be open to anyone who qualifies. The only thing that is constant is change with HC.

We're no stealing, we're not cheating, we're not lying.

If the government didn't want early retirees to buy ACA or any other plan, they would have explicitly made it so. Sure, maybe it could have been a loophole in the beginning, but it's been over a decade since ACA passed, so if that was a loophole, they would have closed it. And if they didn't, then it wasn't a loophole, it was intended for early retirees too.

 

[PristineSound]

I retired at 55. We were FI a few years before that. I waited until 55 so that I could officially retire. That meant I could keep all vested stock options and unvested stock options and RSUs would continue to vest. It also made retiree health insurance available. I loved the technical work, but I hated many other parts of the job. I use to think I should continue to work until all the kids graduated HS. I thought that modeled the proper work ethic. Then I decided RE modeled financial responsibility. I retired with 2 still in HS.

Very happy for you. It must feel great to be FI before you retire, you can go to work with no sweat everyday.

I was even thinking along the same line, can't leave any easy money on the table even if I too became FI before 55 (lower probability at this point). In fact, when I am ready to retire, I may even tell my boss to put me on the RIF list and if I am lucky, I may be able to collect severance and possibly save another person who really needs their job from getting RIF.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

My wife and I have no heirs. When we both retired, we had set a target spend rate that was above our standard of living at the time. Thanks to the markets, that target spend rate is now below 2% before SS. We didn't plan it that way, it just happened. Because of that, we plan on spending more, and doing so with the knowledge that we have such a margin of safety. The peace of mind is priceless.

 

[HI Bill]

I admire the perpetual goal. But I had one friend die at 62. Aging effects seem to hit most folks around age 50 (I had a bleed in one eye that ruined its vision and ended my dream of learning to fly in ER). My stamina has decreased significantly since age 55. Travel and diving aren’t as easy as the used to be. I can’t do woodworking or yard work for more than 3-3.5 hours. My goal for 20 years had been to ER at 50. Financially, it took me to 55. I sure wish I had the opportunity for 5 earlier years of travel. My rambling point is that when you are younger and healthier, it’s hard to imagine the effects of aging in your early to mid 50s. That’s why most here try to ER earlier, although most like me succumb to the ‘one more year’ syndrome for several years. It’s hard to quit at the peak of one’s career and earning. Good luck!

 

[PristineSound]

I admire the perpetual goal. But I had one friend die at 62. Aging effects seem to hit most folks around age 50 (I had a bleed in one eye that ruined its vision and ended my dream of learning to fly in ER). My stamina has decreased significantly since age 55. Travel and diving aren’t as easy as the used to be. I can’t do woodworking or yard work for more than 3-3.5 hours. My goal for 20 years had been to ER at 50. Financially, it took me to 55. I sure wish I had the opportunity for 5 earlier years of travel. My rambling point is that when you are younger and healthier, it’s hard to imagine the effects of aging in your early to mid 50s. That’s why most here try to ER earlier, although most like me succumb to the ‘one more year’ syndrome for several years. It’s hard to quit at the peak of one’s career and earning. Good luck!

Yes, health is indeed the biggest wildcard. I hope we all here are as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

Part of the reason healthcare insurance is my biggest concern. I've read that it is estimated that about 50% of all people will get some form of cancer in their lifetime.

Because we have a lot of good hospitals by where we live, MSK, HSS, Penn Medicine. My wife and I really want to try retiring in another country, but it's best to not do that, assuming ACA will do the job.

 

[Taco]

the goal must be an ever-growing portfolio until the end of time.

Why I want perpetuity:

1. For me, it's a damn cool goal and achievement...
2. The financial security it affords...
3. To be able to walk around knowing that I, in all practical means, I can never overspend...
4. I want to leave my kids with a good chunk...

You've said that you want your money to continue to grow after you die and have it last until the end of time.

What do you envision your perpetual money doing 100 or 200 years after your death? What would your ever growing stash be used for after your children are gone? Are you thinking an endowment of some kind?

The only plans you've mentioned, after your life is over, is to leave an inheritance to your kids. That's a wonderful goal - and I'm not trivializing it at all - but hardly seems to fall into the perpetual category.

 

[DJRR]

Why I want perpetuity:

1. For me, it's a damn cool goal and achievement. To be able to tell myself, my portfolio can last me until the end of time; heck, it might just add few more years to my life because of the good feeling it induces. My wife and I look at each other now giddy knowing we are on this path.

I get it, but don't fool yourself. This does not exist. Risk is a part of life and we are only trying to manage it. Perpetual is easy, never sell and only spend dividends/interest, but I think what you really mean is your current standard of living in perpetuity. Some random thoughts:

1. Many members have a negative WD rate. Their expenses are less than their guaranteed pensions/annuities/SS. This is essentially perpetual. Investigate how much a guaranteed cash flow costs to create via annuities, TIP ladder, US Zero ladder, etc. and compare to your assets to see if the remainder is sufficient for your legacy needs.
2. Only spend a % of your current portfolio each year. This is by definition perpetual but may not support your current standard of living or maintain it during inflation.
3. Accept a lower standard of living.
4. Diversify with dual citizenship and significant money in at least Europe and Asia. This is very expensive since the US taxes global income and it is hard to diversify from the risk of a US collapse.
5. Diversify with liquor, cigarettes, and ammunition. These have historically always been valuable currencies.
6. Diversify with cash on hand and pantry assets. Most Americans have trouble with a 3 day storm. Our money depends on the electrical grid to operate.

The point being that there are a lot of risks, so you need to think wholistically and decide which ones are important to you and make contingency plans that you can live with. I live within a mile of very important national security offices, so I don't plan for nuclear war survival

 

[PristineSound]

You've said that you want your money to continue to grow after you die and have it last until the end of time.

What do you envision your perpetual money doing 100 or 200 years after your death? What would your ever growing stash be used for after your children are gone? Are you thinking an endowment of some kind?

The only plans you've mentioned, after your life is over, is to leave an inheritance to your kids. That's a wonderful goal - and I'm not trivializing it at all - but hardly seems to fall into the perpetual category.

I think you misunderstood perpetuity. As one member stated, perpetuity means "outlasting the collision of the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies, the decay of protons, the extinction of black holes from Hawking radiation and so on." Of course that is not possible.

Perpetuity in retirement portfolio means: A WR that covers all expenses and discretionary spending, adjusted for year-to-year inflation, such that your portfolio, also adjust for year-to-year inflation and after all taxes and associated fees/expenses, (at the very minimum) remains the same from the year you retired to the year you die.

What would happen to the money after one dies since it would not outlast the collision of the Milky Way and Andromeda? That is less of a concern, but a good and individually personalized problem to have, which one can attempt to solve or not.

I think some members here recoil at such an idea of perpetuity because of the excessiveness nature of it, especially when there are so many struggling, so many with so little, and so many other problems that plagues humanity and here you are, hording asset that you can't even spent in their lifetime. I understand.

The point being that there are a lot of risks, so you need to think wholistically and decide which ones are important to you and make contingency plans that you can live with. I live within a mile of very important national security offices, so I don't plan for nuclear war survival

Of course, nothing in life is guaranteed, except for tax and death.

 

[RetiredHappy]

I think some members here recoil at such an idea of perpetuity because of the excessiveness nature of it, especially when there are so many struggling, so many with so little, and so many other problems that plagues humanity and here you are, hording asset that you can't even spent in their lifetime. I understand.

You may have under judged the responses. Many of us want to leave an estate to our beneficiaries. While we may not use the term in perpetuity, the outcome and desire are the same. In my case, I need to leave enough, to my offspring who will rely on inheritance to be able to retire and grow old.

 

[GrayHare]

Of course, nothing in life is guaranteed, except for tax and death.

Maybe Congress will let us Roth convert our lives and solve that problem, too.

I'm not a fan of Die With Zero, either. If your perpetuity is to have at least the same net worth at death as you did at retirement, I suspect many here are also on that course.

 

[PristineSound]

You may have under judged the responses. Many of us want to leave an estate to our beneficiaries. While we may not use the term in perpetuity, the outcome and desire are the same. In my case, I need to leave enough, to my offspring who will rely on inheritance to be able to retire and grow old.

I do believe there are some members who replied here and in their replied it has this undertone. But no need to further pontify this point, because if there haven't been a member who replied felt this way, I assure you, there will inevitably be a member who will.

There are also many members who are already are in perpetuity, but never had a label of it, nor intended for it, but they sure are happy to be in that position and have expressed such. I believe you are one of the lucky few (maybe not in this forum, but a lucky few in the general population) and haven't been shy in expressing such neither. Like minds.

 

[Diogenes]

I admire the perpetual goal. But I had one friend die at 62. Aging effects seem to hit most folks around age 50 (I had a bleed in one eye that ruined its vision and ended my dream of learning to fly in ER). My stamina has decreased significantly since age 55. Travel and diving aren’t as easy as the used to be. I can’t do woodworking or yard work for more than 3-3.5 hours. My goal for 20 years had been to ER at 50. Financially, it took me to 55. I sure wish I had the opportunity for 5 earlier years of travel. My rambling point is that when you are younger and healthier, it’s hard to imagine the effects of aging in your early to mid 50s. That’s why most here try to ER earlier, although most like me succumb to the ‘one more year’ syndrome for several years. It’s hard to quit at the peak of one’s career and earning. Good luck!

Point noted, with kindness and sincere attention. But do please allow me a counterpoint....

Some us have dearly nurtured goals. In your case, it was learning to fly an airplane. In my case, when I try something merely for pleasure, entertainment or idle curiosity, I get bored or frustrated. To your example of flying... I'm an aeronautical engineer. Love airplanes in general, and thought about flying... but am terrified of heights, don't like to follow directions, and in general am a sloppy person. Probably not an idea combo for flying, right?

Over the years I realized that I just really want to have a lot of money. Not to spend it, not to show off, not to enjoy it, not even to wield power with it as some nefarious backstage manipulator. No, I just want to have it, to feel it, to indulge in the sensation of beholding it... and to watch it grow... even if that means living in a cardboard box, or more appropriately to my screen name, in a cracked jar.

If I die in 5 minutes, that's OK (will revisit this thread to confirm...). If I die prematurely that's also OK. What's not OK is a long and tumultuous life, witnessing my money decline, or at least, to fail to grow. That feels like a failure and a betrayal of core principles. I don't look back to 30 years ago, wondering why I didn't take such and such a trip, or buy such and such a thing. I do look back, to the extent that memory remains accurate, and upbraid myself for indulging in such-and-such. Better to have lived a more thrifty, ascetic life. I also regret having missed "obvious" investment opportunities, which are the flip-side of regretting spending.

My goal has been FIRE for decades, but mainly as a giant middle finger to The Man. I hate following directions, getting up in the morning, dealing with requirements or deadlines or constraints. Work, in a word, sucks! But so does not receiving a paycheck. I've not been able to square that circle. But here's a circle that most definitely I CAN square: I'd much rather die "too soon", than "too late".

 

[RetiredHappy]

Point noted, with kindness and sincere attention. But do please allow me a counterpoint....

Some us have dearly nurtured goals. In your case, it was learning to fly an airplane. In my case, when I try something merely for pleasure, entertainment or idle curiosity, I get bored or frustrated. To your example of flying... I'm an aeronautical engineer. Love airplanes in general, and thought about flying... but am terrified of heights, don't like to follow directions, and in general am a sloppy person. Probably not an idea combo for flying, right?

Over the years I realized that I just really want to have a lot of money. Not to spend it, not to show off, not to enjoy it, not even to wield power with it as some nefarious backstage manipulator. No, I just want to have it, to feel it, to indulge in the sensation of beholding it... and to watch it grow... even if that means living in a cardboard box, or more appropriately to my screen name, in a cracked jar.

If I die in 5 minutes, that's OK (will revisit this thread to confirm...). If I die prematurely that's also OK. What's not OK is a long and tumultuous life, witnessing my money decline, or at least, to fail to grow. That feels like a failure and a betrayal of core principles. I don't look back to 30 years ago, wondering why I didn't take such and such a trip, or buy such and such a thing. I do look back, to the extent that memory remains accurate, and upbraid myself for indulging in such-and-such. Better to have lived a more thrifty, ascetic life. I also regret having missed "obvious" investment opportunities, which are the flip-side of regretting spending.

My goal has been FIRE for decades, but mainly as a giant middle finger to The Man. I hate following directions, getting up in the morning, dealing with requirements or deadlines or constraints. Work, in a word, sucks! But so does not receiving a paycheck. I've not been able to square that circle. But here's a circle that most definitely I CAN square: I'd much rather die "too soon", than "too late".

Ah, you need therapy to get out of the mindset of wanting to build wealth forever. All the best.

 

[Koolau]

Point noted, with kindness and sincere attention. But do please allow me a counterpoint....

Some us have dearly nurtured goals. In your case, it was learning to fly an airplane. In my case, when I try something merely for pleasure, entertainment or idle curiosity, I get bored or frustrated. To your example of flying... I'm an aeronautical engineer. Love airplanes in general, and thought about flying... but am terrified of heights, don't like to follow directions, and in general am a sloppy person. Probably not an idea combo for flying, right?

Over the years I realized that I just really want to have a lot of money. Not to spend it, not to show off, not to enjoy it, not even to wield power with it as some nefarious backstage manipulator. No, I just want to have it, to feel it, to indulge in the sensation of beholding it... and to watch it grow... even if that means living in a cardboard box, or more appropriately to my screen name, in a cracked jar.

If I die in 5 minutes, that's OK (will revisit this thread to confirm...). If I die prematurely that's also OK. What's not OK is a long and tumultuous life, witnessing my money decline, or at least, to fail to grow. That feels like a failure and a betrayal of core principles. I don't look back to 30 years ago, wondering why I didn't take such and such a trip, or buy such and such a thing. I do look back, to the extent that memory remains accurate, and upbraid myself for indulging in such-and-such. Better to have lived a more thrifty, ascetic life. I also regret having missed "obvious" investment opportunities, which are the flip-side of regretting spending.

My goal has been FIRE for decades, but mainly as a giant middle finger to The Man. I hate following directions, getting up in the morning, dealing with requirements or deadlines or constraints. Work, in a word, sucks! But so does not receiving a paycheck. I've not been able to square that circle. But here's a circle that most definitely I CAN square: I'd much rather die "too soon", than "too late".

Thanks for such an open and honest response. Definitely makes your feelings known.

I'm less about the "amount" or sheer enjoyment of having a "lot" but I am especially desirous of having "enough" - whatever that is. I believe I have arrived at that and it is very fulfilling and satisfying.

I rarely "hated" w*rk, but there were times when all I wanted was OUT! Having "enough" meant I could do that any time I wanted. That was good enough while I was still at w*rk until the day I decided I was finished.

 

[PristineSound]

Point noted, with kindness and sincere attention. But do please allow me a counterpoint....

Some us have dearly nurtured goals. In your case, it was learning to fly an airplane. In my case, when I try something merely for pleasure, entertainment or idle curiosity, I get bored or frustrated. To your example of flying... I'm an aeronautical engineer. Love airplanes in general, and thought about flying... but am terrified of heights, don't like to follow directions, and in general am a sloppy person. Probably not an idea combo for flying, right?

Over the years I realized that I just really want to have a lot of money. Not to spend it, not to show off, not to enjoy it, not even to wield power with it as some nefarious backstage manipulator. No, I just want to have it, to feel it, to indulge in the sensation of beholding it... and to watch it grow... even if that means living in a cardboard box, or more appropriately to my screen name, in a cracked jar.

If I die in 5 minutes, that's OK (will revisit this thread to confirm...). If I die prematurely that's also OK. What's not OK is a long and tumultuous life, witnessing my money decline, or at least, to fail to grow. That feels like a failure and a betrayal of core principles. I don't look back to 30 years ago, wondering why I didn't take such and such a trip, or buy such and such a thing. I do look back, to the extent that memory remains accurate, and upbraid myself for indulging in such-and-such. Better to have lived a more thrifty, ascetic life. I also regret having missed "obvious" investment opportunities, which are the flip-side of regretting spending.

My goal has been FIRE for decades, but mainly as a giant middle finger to The Man. I hate following directions, getting up in the morning, dealing with requirements or deadlines or constraints. Work, in a word, sucks! But so does not receiving a paycheck. I've not been able to square that circle. But here's a circle that most definitely I CAN square: I'd much rather die "too soon", than "too late".

As I stated previously, different people have different reasons and goals for perpetuity. Not everyone will agree with other peoples' reasons, but it's not their say.

But I think for the most of us, we don't want to die too soon and it appears that your definition of dying "too late" means, you outlive your money. And you know what will guarantee you won't run out of money in all practicality? A portfolio that lasts in perpetuity

 

[Diogenes]

But I think for the most of us, we don't want to die too soon and it appears that your definition of dying "too late" means, you outlive your money. And you know what will guarantee you won't run out of money in all practicality? A portfolio that lasts in perpetuity

Yes. And I'm still here...

The concern isn't to literally outlive my money, but to outlive its progress. I will never prove an important theorem or write a seminal paper that will be referenced in the 23rd or 27th centuries. My professional contributions will be muted and forgettable. It took decades to come to terms with that! So, there we have it. That is one component of self-release to retire. Instead, professional progress has transmuted into financial progress... not becoming a U-tube influencer or a celebrity or a hedge-fund jockey, but to slowly-but-surely accumulate (inspired perhaps by the Ramjac Corporation), nurture, husband, tend.... the portfolio is the archival creature that gets left behind, because little else will get left behind.

 

[PristineSound]

My professional contributions will be muted and forgettable. It took decades to come to terms with that! So, there we have it. That is one component of self-release to retire. Instead, professional progress has transmuted into financial progress...

I personally couldn't give a 2-cent damn about any sort of impact I may or may not make either professionally or to society. The only impact I care about is the impact I make to my loved ones, family and dear friends, such as inspiring them to achieve their goals, live a healthy and happy life; to let them know I care about them and that I am here for them.

I don't care if my work means anything to anyone, or if it impacts society or humanity; I don't care if anyone outside of the people I love remembers me, in fact, I hope they don't.

 

[Gumby]

I'm fairly certain that when the news of my demise is announced, the vast run of humanity will say "Who?" And the rest will say "Oh, thank God."

 

[RobLJ]

I pretty much skipped through the last two pages of posts, but it seems to me that if "perpetuity" is the goal, settting a withdrawal rate below the Firecalc WR with something close to a value, say about 30% below the current value, would give you a pretty good WR/yearly figure and save a lot of time and distress. I would probably also run at 40% below, etc. Just a thought.

I rerun Firecalc every year or two and 10 years later the "safe" yearly withdrawal rate is up a lot considerably (since the market has increased and I am 10 years older).

 

[Diogenes]

I personally couldn't give a 2-cent damn about any sort of impact I may or may not make either professionally or to society. The only impact I care about is the impact I make to my loved ones, family and dear friends, such as inspiring them to achieve their goals, live a healthy and happy life; to let them know I care about them and that I am here for them.

I don't care if my work means anything to anyone, or if it impacts society or humanity; I don't care if anyone outside of the people I love remembers me, in fact, I hope they don't.

It varies. I have zero family... no one whatsoever. Thus I'm seduced by the phrase from Schiller's "Ode to Joy", used by Beethoven in his 9th symphony: "Millions, I embrace you"! My delusion was grossly and grotesquely overestimating my value as a scientist/engineer. Hubris! It felt great, to be the important-man at a technical conference, mobbed by all sorts of attendees. It was foolish and evanescent. Didn't last. But it took time to overcome one's foolishness, to learn humility. It's a process... still ongoing.

Nevertheless, it continues to amuse me, to entertain the notion, that 100 years from now, my papers will still be cited, and people will continue sparring and arguing over whether the splitting of the nonslender delta wing leading edge vortex is mainly a result of Reynolds number, or dimensionless leading edge radius. If that sounds like gibberish, it probably is... but narrowly in my field, or my former field, it matters... or used to matter. Will it matter in the future? Unlikely, but it pleases me to be vain, in delusional thinking, that yes, it's going to matter.

 

[PristineSound]

It varies. I have zero family... no one whatsoever. Thus I'm seduced by the phrase from Schillers "Ode to Joy", used by Beethoven in his 9th symphony: "Millions, I embrace you"! My delusion was grossly and grotesquely overestimating my value as a scientist/engineer. Hubris! It felt great, to be the important-man at a technical conference, mobbed by all sorts of attendees. It was foolish and evanescent. Didn't last. But it took time to overcome one's foolishness, to learn humility. It's a process... still ongoing.

Nevertheless, it continues to amuse me, to entertain the notion, that 100 years from now, my papers will still be cited, and people will continue sparring and arguing over whether the splitting of the nonslender delta wing leading edge vortex is mainly a result of Reynolds number, or dimensionless leading edge radius. If that sounds like gibberish, it probably is... but narrowly in my field, or my former field, it matters... or used to matter. Will it matter in the future? Unlikely, but it pleases me to be vain, in delusional thinking, that yes, it's going to matter.

No one has the right to judge what is important to others. Nor will their judgement carries any value.

If that is important to you, that's all that matters.

 

[G POP]

 

[Koolau]

I'm fairly certain that when the news of my demise is announced, the vast run of humanity will say "Who?" And the rest will say "Oh, thank God."

Reminds me of leaving Megacorp.

Ko'olau WHO??

 

[Henry Lili]

General and any feedback, on things like, but not limited to:

1) How is it working out for you?
2) Is 2%-2.5% too conservative or not conservative enough.
3) What portfolio mix would be recommended, based on what timeline and what risk tolerance, etc.
4) What are some of the gotchas? The only one I can think of is health insurance.
5) On years where you don't get enough return, do you cut spending?
6) Someone recommended that I shouldn't carry a mortgage, why or why not?

The short of it is, I don't know what I don't know. If you are living it, then you would know what you didn't know and chances are, I wouldn't know it now, so please do share.

The "gotcha" on health insurance well worth considering. I'm not subsidy eligible thus 2026 premium just for me will be $915/month (silver ) up from $725 this year and $225/mo (individual market price) when I FIRED twelve years ago. Plan for the obsurd.

 

[disneysteve]

The "gotcha" on health insurance well worth considering. I'm not subsidy eligible thus 2026 premium just for me will be $915/month (silver ) up from $725 this year and $225/mo (individual market price) when I FIRED twelve years ago. Plan for the obsurd.

We were subsidy-eligible for 2024 and 2025 but not going forward. For 2026 our premium is going up by $880/month and our deductible is going up by $7,300. That's easily enough to wreck a tight retirement budget.