Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[RetMD21]

Interesting, and seems to make sense overall, but I really wonder about their methodology:


Doesn't make sense to me that the 2022 numbers are so much lower (for both EV-EV and ICE-ICE). A 2.5x decrease in one year for EVs, and a 1.5x decrease in one year for ICE? Something is fishy.

I don't think it is well written but I think they are talking about results (in 2023) for model year 2021 and 2022 vehicles. I tried to look this up but I couldn't find the information from the auto club

 

[RetMD21]

Why?

With ICE yo have to run the engine and use fuel even if you are hardly moving

 

[Tetto]

With ICE yo have to run the engine and use fuel even if you are hardly movistart stop

 

[Tetto]

Start/stop tech takes care of most of that now. I’m still dubious of the cost to charge to 80% vs gas. At home I get the economics, but in the free market, the charging must be much higher cost per kw/hr, no?

 

[HFWR]

From AAA, a listing of charging costs from all 50 states.

AAA Fuel Prices

 

[Chuckanut]

With ICE yo have to run the engine and use fuel even if you are hardly moving

Not with many modern cars. My hybrid turns the engine off when stopped. Heck it turns the engine off at times when it’s moving. Some non hybrids turn the engine off at stoplights and other times.

New Car Turns Off When Stopped at Light: Learning about Start-Stop

This article explains how the start-stop system works, including its pros and cons. We will also discuss the ways to control this system for your comfort.

cararac.com

The start-stop technology started in Europe to enable car owners to reduce fuel consumption and comply with global emissions regulations. The system is still fairly new in the US. The technology stops and restarts the car engine depending on the driver's actions. It detects through sensors that a car has come to a halt, especially when the driver is stuck in heavy traffic or waiting at the traffic lights.

 

[Zathras]

Start/stop tech takes care of most of that now. I’m still dubious of the cost to charge to 80% vs gas. At home I get the economics, but in the free market, the charging must be much higher cost per kw/hr, no?

It does tend to be much higher than charging at home.
Per the AAA site posted, the average public EV charger is only about 10% less than gas.
At home, it is less than half that.

Of course, one more reason I prefer EVs in the winter is that I never have to pump gas in a blizzard

 

[2HOTinPHX]

So I was at the Chevy dealership this AM for a warranty repair on our Bolt EUV. There was a service bulletin regarding a foam seal they used on the rear window spoiler because it is two pieces. Mine was one that needed it replaced because the adhesive was no longer holding in places. Not a big deal.

While I am sitting in the waiting room I get a text from their vehicle acquisition person. "We are in need of nice pre-owned vehicles, especially the Bolt Euv like yours! Our Acquisition Team is offering free consultations for our service customers who may not have purchased from us. We would like to appraise your vehicle and do an equity evaluation to see if there is a new program which would benefit you."
I replied back "no thank you I would rather not know how much my vehicle has depreciated."

No further sales tactics followed...hehe

I wouldn't give up our little paid for Bolt for anything close to what they would have offered. We were able to get ventilated (cooled seats) on mid level trim. Seems now you have opt for premium $$$$ trim levels for that feature now. It's one of the main reasons we picked the EUV over the standard Bolt.

 

[audreyh1]

Start/stop tech takes care of most of that now. I’m still dubious of the cost to charge to 80% vs gas. At home I get the economics, but in the free market, the charging must be much higher cost per kw/hr, no?

No, even using superchargers it’s way cheaper. We often take very long trips and my travel charging cast is way, way lower than my gas cost was.

These days cost per kWh at a supercharger is just a little over twice what I pay at home. For example, I often pay $0.33 per kWh at a supercharger vs. $0.15 at home.

 

[zinger1457]

It does tend to be much higher than charging at home.
Per the AAA site posted, the average public EV charger is only about 10% less than gas.
At home, it is less than half that.

I can see the at home charging savings but doubt charging an EV at a public EV charger would be cheaper than buying gas for any fuel-efficient vehicle (>35 mpg) based on the averages AAA used.

 

[Midpack]

I can see the at home charging savings but doubt charging an EV at a public EV charger would be cheaper than buying gas for any fuel-efficient vehicle (>35 mpg) based on the averages AAA used.

Maybe attempt some math first? Here’s a recent analysis using reasonably comparable cars that extrapolates the breakeven mileage is about 42 mpg for ICE (essentially HEV/PHEVs, not ICE) vs a BEV at a supercharger - probably a decent rule of thumb to start. That’s based on 40 cents/kWh and $3.50 per gallon gas. Of course superchargers can range from 25-50 cents/kWh and gas from $2.70 MS to $4.85 CA - and they correlate somewhat, both are higher in CA? And just as ICE mpgs vary considerably, so do EV efficiencies - so choosing comparable vehicles is a little subjective. e.g. A Prius is way more “fuel” efficient than a Hummer EV. A Tesla Model 3 RWD is way more “fuel” efficient than a Cadillac Escalade. Deliberately exaggerating only to illustrate.

It’s well known that most actual EV owners often charge at home and save considerably. I pay less than 8 cents/kWh at home - there’s no ICE vehicle that could come close, not even a Prius. People who can’t charge at home are understandably less likely to own EVs.

Nothing beats plugging in at home. The average home electricity rate hovers around 15¢ per kWh – way cheaper than Supercharging. But that’s the point – Superchargers aren’t for everyday use. They’re there for road trips and emergencies when you need juice in a hurry.

Tesla Supercharger Cost per kWh: Is It Still Cheaper Than Gas?

Tesla Supercharger costs range from $0.25-$0.50/kWh, still beating gas prices by 24 less than gas.

aboutevs.com

 

[Alan]

EV supercharger prices have shot up in the UK this last year such that it is a very similar cost to fueling a 50mpg car. Fortunately I rarely have to use public chargers. Tomorrow we are going on a 250 mile round trip so will make it back home to charge.

At home we pay 7p/kw to charge and the superchargers cost 60 to 70p/kw. (Much cheaper in Scotland where the Scottish government still subsidize/cap EV chargers. We paid around 45p/kw at a supercharger last month in Scotland.)

 

[Chuckanut]

The EV fuel comparison costs should include the state fees that replace the gas tax income the state does not get with electric charging.

Currently in my home state the charge is $150 extra when the tabs are paid for a full EV. $75 extra if a person owns a hybrid. Interestingly, the hybrid fee does not differentiate between a plug-in hybrid and a fully gasoline powered hybrid.

 

[zinger1457]

Maybe attempt some math first?

I did and condescending responses like yours aren't needed on this forum.
Using the AAA averages of $3.17/gal of gas and using a 275 mile full EV charge as an estimate for highway driving it would cost ~$25 for a gas car that gets 35mpg, ~$26 to charge a typical 75kwh EV battery at the average $.344/kwh.

 

[Midpack]

I did and condescending responses like yours aren't needed on this forum.
Using the AAA averages of $3.17/gal of gas and using a 275 mile full EV charge as an estimate for highway driving it would cost ~$25 for a gas car that gets 35mpg, ~$26 to charge a typical 75kwh EV battery at the average $.344/kwh.

Fair enough sorry, Your assumptions are within the realm of possibility now that I see them - but the price of gas, price of public charging, EV range/efficiency and what's comparable cars are vary substantially. You say breakeven is 35 mpg, my source shows 42 mpg. The average fuel economy for all major makes is still only about 26 mpg according to the EPA.

But you made a pretty strong open ended statement as well "but doubt charging an EV at a public EV charger would be cheaper than buying gas for any fuel-efficient vehicle (>35 mpg)." Every source I've read finds it costs less to drive an EV over a comparable ICE vehicle even with public charging - and there are few if any ICE vehicles that qualify, so you're talking HEV/PHEVs. That was my primary point.

And again, most actual EV owners often charge at home where it's FAR cheaper than any gas equivalent.

And EV emissions are lower to much lower as well, a factor in the buying decision for some of us.

Highlights of the Automotive Trends Report | US EPA

Highlights of the light-duty vehicle carbon dioxide and fuel economy trends report.

www.epa.gov

 

[RetMD21]

From AAA, a listing of charging costs from all 50 states.

AAA Fuel Prices

Interesting but level 2 charging prices vary wildly in my area.
Free, free inside a paid parking lot, free for a couple of hours (at a bar), hourly fee, and .20 too .35 $/kwh. If home charging isn't an feasible some people might have good level 2 options.

I recognize that ICE auto start exists but when I had it it didn't cycle off much when it was cold. Maybe that was just a Ford issue.

 

[Texas Proud]

I think the debate about which is more expensive is irrelevant since they seem so close... and it does appear that at home charging is cheaper...

Most people are not looking at a car and saying I will not buy that car at 27mpg even though it is much better than this car at 30mpg... it is a side thought..

 

[Tetto]

Fair enough sorry, Your assumptions are within the realm of possibility now that I see them - but the price of gas, price of public charging, EV range/efficiency and what's comparable cars are vary substantially. You say breakeven is 35 mpg, my source shows 42 mpg. The average fuel economy for all major makes is still only about 26 mpg according to the EPA.

But you made a pretty strong open ended statement as well "but doubt charging an EV at a public EV charger would be cheaper than buying gas for any fuel-efficient vehicle (>35 mpg)." Every source I've read finds it costs less to drive an EV over a comparable ICE vehicle even with public charging - and there are few if any ICE vehicles that qualify, so you're talking HEV/PHEVs. That was my primary point.

And again, most actual EV owners often charge at home where it's FAR cheaper than any gas equivalent.

And EV emissions are lower to much lower as well, a factor in the buying decision for some of us.

Highlights of the Automotive Trends Report | US EPA

Highlights of the light-duty vehicle carbon dioxide and fuel economy trends report.

www.epa.gov

For me, the most compelling argument for an EV is way less maintenance and high performance. Other than that, gas/EV take your pick. There isn’t a massive advantage, one over the other

 

[Fermion]

For me it is range, and specifically towing range, otherwise I would be in a EV right now. Just make one with a 300 mile range while pulling a 2 ton trailer and I am there!

 

[Midpack]

For me it is range, and specifically towing range, otherwise I would be in a EV right now. Just make one with a 300 mile range while pulling a 2 ton trailer and I am there!

As you realize, that adds a lot of cost because it just requires a significantly larger battery - the most expensive component in most EVs. Most people don’t need that kind of towing capacity frequently, so they’d rather have a 300 mile non towing range at a lower price, so that’s what’s produced and sold. However, I suspect there will be models that fit your criteria some day.

As I understand it, towing takes a huge chunk out of range for gas powered trucks as well. But since they typically have more range/tank than a comparable EV, it’s more manageable? And a second fuel tank was optional on some full sized trucks at one time, not sure if that still an option?

 

[HFWR]

My Chevy work truck had a 36 gal tank. I don’t recall the mpg, but it wasn’t great for an underpowered six banger.

My Silverado had a 24 gal tank, with 15-16/20-21 mpg.

 

[joesxm3]

Well. I'm getting rid of my Tesla Model Y AWD.

 

[Fermion]

As I understand it, towing takes a huge chunk out of range for gas powered trucks as well. But since they typically have more range/tank than a comparable EV, it’s more manageable? And a second fuel tank was optional on some full sized trucks at one time, not sure if that still an option?

Yes, on our cross country road trip during the solar eclipse pulling our 17 foot sailboat (about 3500 pounds with trailer), the range on our 2.7L turbo V6 F150 went from 20mpg to about 14mpg. With a 21 gallon tank though we still got about 300 miles while towing. If we had to stop and recharge every 100 miles, the trip would still be going.

 

[HFWR]

Range problem solved!

 

[Tetto]

Well. I'm getting rid of my Tesla Model Y AWD.

Why?