Fat ER or earlier ER?

[dirtbiker]

I just hit the million dollar milestone, and started playing around with different calculators and such (as I tend do do when I hit financial milestones), and I could retire in my late 40s (I'm 41 now), depending on the stock market, of course. My plan has always been to retire at age 58. This is the age when my military pension will start, and my wife can collect her state pension. We currently live off of about $10k per month net after taxes (so not exactly lean living), but with a $5k per month mortgage. We tuck away about $12k per month to retirement/investment accounts. If we do wait until age 58, we'll have a FAT retirement, with lots of global travel as our main goal. I've always pictured my retirement as living a life of leisure off of much more than I ever lived off of while working. But do I really need this

However, I'm SO sick of working. I'm still in the National Guard, I work about 60 hours per week at my demanding job, and I own and live on a farm that requires daily work (though I don't really consider the latter to be work, since I love doing it).

If I were to retire early in my late 40s, I could live off of basically the same net income after taxes as I do now, but without a mortgage, assuming historical average stock market performance and a 4% withdrawal rate. A 4% withdrawal rate that early does make me a bit nervous, but after a decade of that withdrawal rate, our pensions will kick in (and maybe even social security, if it's still around), and we can significantly decrease our withdrawal rate. The thought of retiring within the next decade is VERY enticing. We have about 11 years left on our mortgage (so age 52), and I won't retire with monthly debt payments, so I would need to take a chunk to pay off the mortgage about 3 years early.

Anyhow, I guess I'm rambling a bit here now.

I know many (most?) here have had this same basic internal debate. I guess it basically comes down to time vs money. What are your thoughts?

 

[Alex The Great]

I believe the age itself does not matter much. What matter is FI (Financial Independence). I made my decision purely based on that. I started a retirement plan when I thought I already achieved FI and can live without a paycheck. I mean, not just a net worth but regular reliable annual income which does not just cover expenses but rather exceed it. Even if part of it comes from retirement accounts which I cannot access till 59.5. It was just an incident that my retirement did happen at 56.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

Aim for FatFire and you will be able to pull the trigger in the late 40s if you want to. You will really need to sort this out in 5-7 years when you think of a proper AA for when you do FIRE.

You’re smart to think of the true value of living fat later vs just living free earlier. I have friends in their late 50s who are still working so they can have $100k per year to travel on when they retire.

Uh … you might be dead. Maybe travel on “only” $50k while you’re alive…

 

[RetiredHappy]

What about you change career so that you can last a little longer in a more enjoyable job? Since we are pretty much FAT FIRE, retirement life is pretty good. When we retired, I wanted more in the bank before I called it a day, but in the end, it turned out that we have enough.

 

[FLSUnFIRE]

Time is more finite than money so I vote for time -there is a good chance that you'll still get to FAT if you are withdrawing at a conservative rate. Just look at the average and ending amounts in FIRECalc along with the graph. Wouldn't risk solvency but sounds like that is not an issue for you.

ETA: Just attended a Celebration of Life for a 54 y/o that just collapsed and died unexpectedly.

 

[Aerides]

What you may, hopefully, see, is that investments start to do a bit of a hockey stick after the first million.

So, saying now, 8 years or 17 is not really a decision you need to make, not even close. You might well end up retiring somewhere in the middle or less, but it's too early to tell.

A 4% wdr in late 40's is considered a bit riskier than, say, at 60. Most will advise you to stick under 3.5%.

But, either way, give it a year or three and then see where things lie.

 

[REIJM]

I just hit the million dollar milestone, and started playing around with different calculators and such (as I tend do do when I hit financial milestones), and I could retire in my late 40s (I'm 41 now)

I know many (most?) here have had this same basic internal debate. I guess it basically comes down to time vs money. What are your thoughts?

Congrats on hitting the milestone.

My wife and I 35, and are at around $1.1M in investments across various accounts. Currently, we're putting away about $13k a month in savings across those accounts, and that'll increase as our income does. Right now, our plan is to retire by 50 (current target is 47, but given that it's 12 years away, we'll see how things go).

If you're able to live the life you want in retirement with the savings you've generated by your late 40's, what's the point of working longer? Sure, you'll have more money, but what will it do for you? Will it make your retirement any better? Or will it just be an exercise in accumulation at the expense of your mental and physical health?

For us, we want to maximize the amount of time we have doing what we want to do while we're still healthy. While I'm not saying that people in their late 50's aren't able to do whatever they want to in retirement, think about having an entire decade more in retirement, in the best condition/health you'll be in, and what you'd be able to do vs. working away for another 10 years accumulating more money, that may or may not make you're actual retirement more enjoyable.

 

[dirtbiker]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone. I'm guessing once I hit FI, I can then look at it through a different set of lenses. If I only I had a crystal ball and knew how many good years I have left, it would be so much easier! I'm fortunate to be very healthy currently with good family history, so my chances of living long are good, but you never really know.

 

[dirtbiker]

What about you change career so that you can last a little longer in a more enjoyable job? Since we are pretty much FAT FIRE, retirement life is pretty good. When we retired, I wanted more in the bank before I called it a day, but in the end, it turned out that we have enough.

It's not so easy for me to do a career change. I'm a physician, so I have 4 years of college, plus 4 years of medical school, plus 3 years of residency in learning my trade, that cost me a LOT of money. It would be very difficult to find a new career that would match my salary I'm now accustomed to. I do realize this is a good problem to have, FWIW. If I did find a new career that I enjoyed, I think it would likely cause me to work many more years, and even if I did that, I'd still be a slave to the clock...

I have been moving more into administration at my job. I'm now the associate medical director of a large FQHC. This has been a nice change of pace, and has cut down my patient contact hours. However, it has actually added a bit more stress many days.

Ultimately, I don't hate my job, but I am getting burnt out... It's the demanding patients that really take it out of me. 5% of my patients cause 75% of my stress, unfortunately. The other 25% is the administrative/paperwork burden.

 

[old medic]

Ultimately, I don't hate my job, but I am getting burnt out... It's the demanding patients that really take it out of me. 5% of my patients cause 75% of my stress, unfortunately. The other 25% is the administrative/paperwork burden.

As a Paramedic for 35 years, I can totally understand your statement. Unfortunately, I don't expect the admin/paperwork side to get any better. Not sure of your specialty, but is that something you could change?
I will agree with FLSUnFIRE comment, Time is more finite than money.

​

 

[RetiredHappy]

I think you should shoot for late 40s retirement and see how it goes from there. Between ongoing savings and compounding of investments, you are likely to reach your FAT FIRE goal by then.

 

[dirtbiker]

As a Paramedic for 35 years, I can totally understand your statement. Unfortunately, I don't expect the admin/paperwork side to get any better. Not sure of your specialty, but is that something you could change?
I will agree with FLSUnFIRE comment, Time is more finite than money.

​

I definitely know you can understand my statement as a paramedic that long. Not many in your profession do it for so long, and for a reason!

I'm a family medicine physician. I could apply to do a new residency, but there is honestly not another specialty that is really calling to me, and another 3-5 years of training, and at a fraction of my current salary, is a tough pill to swallow. I could also do a fellowship, which is only 1-2 years, but same problem. There's nothing else that is jumping out at me, and it would be a big pay cut while doing the fellowship.

 

[Gremlin]

Is there a way to cut back your hours at your current job in order to enjoy life more until you feel you’re in a better place financially? I was in a similar situation. Physician (pediatric hospitalist) with a job that seemed to be slowly killing me. I work in an extremely underserved area in rural Alaska - lovely, lovely patient population which kept me going but with a heavy burden of medical need, poverty, and never enough resources. I was working full time and putting good money away for retirement with plans to call it quits early. Eventually I cut back to 50% time, saving less for retirement each month but making life waaaaay better. I’m calling it partial retirement as DH and I do frequent mini vacations ( I call them “ retirement moments”) I’ll have to work a little longer than planned but I’m enjoying life a heck of a lot more along the way. It allows me to refill the soul, so to speak, so I’m better equipped emotionally to handle the job. As many people here say: finding the balance between the now and the future.

 

[dirtbiker]

Is there a way to cut back your hours at your current job in order to enjoy life more until you feel you’re in a better place financially? I was in a similar situation. Physician (pediatric hospitalist) with a job that seemed to be slowly killing me. I work in an extremely underserved area in rural Alaska - lovely, lovely patient population which kept me going but with a heavy burden of medical need, poverty, and never enough resources. I was working full time and putting good money away for retirement with plans to call it quits early. Eventually I cut back to 50% time, saving less for retirement each month but making life waaaaay better. I’m calling it partial retirement as DH and I do frequent mini vacations ( I call them “ retirement moments”) I’ll have to work a little longer than planned but I’m enjoying life a heck of a lot more along the way. It allows me to refill the soul, so to speak, so I’m better equipped emotionally to handle the job. As many people here say: finding the balance between the now and the future.

Maybe in several years I can cut back, but right now I am contractually unable to cut hours back, at least not without significant fiscal disincentives. This is due to both bonuses and HRSA student loan reimbursements.

Though, this being said, even cutting back hours I'm left with the daily never-ending in basket with results, calls, etc. So even if I'm working half time, I'm still working every day. This makes me wish I was working in the hospital...

 

[Koolau]

Curious what patient behaviors are causing your issues. I hope I'm not such a patient and would like to know what behaviors to avoid.

Just from another point of view, I had a doctor who never wanted to "treat" more than one issue per visit. He said he couldn't afford the time (couldn't make money.) He spent (I'm not exaggerating) almost 15 minutes explaining how this was true - instead of listening to me ask a couple of questions about my health. I didn't want a "w*rk up" but a reassurance that I need not worry OR if there were a potential problem associated with my "symptom" that I could come back or see a specialist or whatever.

At my age, I always have a new pain or new symptom. I thought that's what a routine visit was for - to have a doctor listen to me and then treat, prescribe, council, assure, recommend, refer. What am I missing - or am I "that" patient?

 

[dirtbiker]

Curious what patient behaviors are causing your issues. I hope I'm not such a patient and would like to know what behaviors to avoid.

Just from another point of view, I had a doctor who never wanted to "treat" more than one issue per visit. He said he couldn't afford the time (couldn't make money.) He spent (I'm not exaggerating) almost 15 minutes explaining how this was true - instead of listening to me ask a couple of questions about my health. I didn't want a "w*rk up" but a reassurance that I need not worry OR if there were a potential problem associated with my "symptom" that I could come back or see a specialist or whatever.

At my age, I always have a new pain or new symptom. I thought that's what a routine visit was for - to have a doctor listen to me and then treat, prescribe, council, assure, recommend, refer. What am I missing - or am I "that" patient?

The most stressful patients are those who come in with a long list of new complaints at every visit. What the patient thinks only takes a second to answer usually doesn't. It requires follow up questions and exams to fully answer. Multiply this by several complaints, and there simply isn't time to practice good medicine.

I have no idea if you are 'that patient' or if you had a physician with a bad bedside manner. What I will say is that there is normal range of complaints/concerns at a regular visit, and then there are those patients that consistently fall well outside the range of normal. And those patients notoriously always have the "out the door" question/questions. What I mean by this is once the visit is all over and everything is done, and I'm just ready to escape, comes the "by the way." If you've ever done this, you're 'that patient.'

No offense intended with this reply.

 

[RetMD21]

Is there a way to cut back your hours at your current job in order to enjoy life more until you feel you’re in a better place financially? I was in a similar situation. Physician (pediatric hospitalist) with a job that seemed to be slowly killing me. I work in an extremely underserved area in rural Alaska - lovely, lovely patient population which kept me going but with a heavy burden of medical need, poverty, and never enough resources. I was working full time and putting good money away for retirement with plans to call it quits early. Eventually I cut back to 50% time, saving less for retirement each month but making life waaaaay better. I’m calling it partial retirement as DH and I do frequent mini vacations ( I call them “ retirement moments”) I’ll have to work a little longer than planned but I’m enjoying life a heck of a lot more along the way. It allows me to refill the soul, so to speak, so I’m better equipped emotionally to handle the job. As many people here say: finding the balance between the now and the future.

Good story. I wanted to scale back but it wasn't possible in the practice I was in. I should have tried temp work but I guess I was risk averse. One of our frequent posters is a FP who switched to urgent care. I ended up with more money than we can spend. Not the worst problem I guess.

 

[Koolau]

The most stressful patients are those who come in with a long list of new complaints at every visit. What the patient thinks only takes a second to answer usually doesn't. It requires follow up questions and exams to fully answer. Multiply this by several complaints, and there simply isn't time to practice good medicine.

I have no idea if you are 'that patient' or if you had a physician with a bad bedside manner. What I will say is that there is normal range of complaints/concerns at a regular visit, and then there are those patients that consistently fall well outside the range of normal. And those patients notoriously always have the "out the door" question/questions. What I mean by this is once the visit is all over and everything is done, and I'm just ready to escape, comes the "by the way." If you've ever done this, you're 'that patient.'

No offense intended with this reply.

No offense taken. I try to be as frugal with my time and my PCP's time as I am when buying something. I used to take a list to my PCP and he would always compliment me on my thoroughness in asking questions. The next PCP gave me the "lecture" I described. So I suppose there could be "that doctor" as well as "that patient." No offense intended.

I'm talking about such things as a new pain in my salivary gland - 2 years after stage 4 thyroid cancer diagnosis, removal and treatment. My current PCP "felt me up" for that issue but had no explanation. So I'm still curious what it might be and he didn't have a clue. I'm okay with that. He's done what he could and doesn't believe I need a specialist or tests. BUT he did listen, he did check and (after literally, months, the pain has seemed to resolve on its own.) Whew!

But my old PCP might have suggested that I come back in a couple of weeks - just so he could "feel my pain." I wouldn't have liked that very much. That PCP became a "Hospitalist" and I hope I never get him when I'm in the hospital.

I understand that doctors are being "squeezed" from both sides - patients and the money people (insurance, clinics, investors, etc.) But I hope we never forget that patients are people too, with all the foibles and fears and pains that come with the issue of being human.

Heh, heh, just one patient's opinion, so YMMV.

 

[kgtest]

Split the difference.
Then retire at 50 like I will be doing. I wanted the military pension, but it didn't work out so I am forging my own path ahead.

 

[FindingForward]

I'm not in the medical field, but I booked a few virtual MD video calls, and one doc shared that he had close to 30 years ER experience. He was now working from an office or home (I couldn't tell), basically doing video consults all day. Obviously, far less $$$, but seemed like an interesting close-to-retirement gig with a lot less stress.

 

[gcgang]

OP-you mentioned not retiring with mortgage. If it is under 4% (maybe 5%) I’d rather retire with a mortgage, putting those funds you’d use to pay off the mortgage into your portfolio.

Just because you’ve got a mortgage doesn’t mean you can’t retire.

 

[swakyaby]

I’ve always thought a medical career is more a marathon than a sprint, considering the many years of education it took to get there. A better work life balance is much needed here, at least now that the educational loans are behind you.

 

[Koolau]

I’ve always thought a medical career is more a marathon than a sprint, considering the many years of education it took to get there. A better work life balance is much needed here, at least now that the educational loans are behind you.

My PCP who was complaining about too many health questions on my part mentioned that he was still paying loans and he was early 50s. How do you deal with THAT?

 

[flyingaway]

Retire when you don't want to work, if you have enough money, e.g., 4% rule. If you like your job, keep working. Fat or not (in terms of portfolio) does not matter.

 

[swakyaby]

Change to a different PCP.
The OP mentioned in a different thread that he went from a negative net worth due to educational debt to a positive net worth. So the pressure of paying off the loans seems past. Now the goal should be to balance work and personal time so that life becomes joyful again, for the long haul which most medical careers turn out to be.