FIRE Members - Are any of you pro-tariff?

[Route246]

From a purely economics (macro) point of view, is there anyone out there who is in favor of tariffs because of the macroeconomic benefits they provide? I'm not talking about politics, geopolitical aspects or trade wars. Is there ever a case where a tariff is beneficial in a macroeconomic sense?

I know this forum is loaded with thinkers, savers, capitalists and fiscally sound minds. My personal opinion is that there is no place where a tariff is justified. I'm a libertarian in terms of economics and I believe in free markets and I also believe that markets will always optimize according to supply and demand because in a freely traded market that supply will always align with demand in terms of pricing. Some of might not like that but it is the way that free markets work.

I am also pro-consumer and if t-shirts from Bangladesh can be made more efficiently than in Toledo, Ohio then Bangladesh wins in that market. One thing lost in all of this is that these trading partners like China have manufacturing entities that are not very profitable in a microeconomic level. Most are barely scraping by or operating at a loss with the help of the government in some cases. From my standpoint it is all good because I like cheap goods that meet my quality requirements. I use Apple products made in China and I like them, I'm satisfied with them and I'm willing to pay hard earned money for them. I really don't care if they are made in Shenzhen Province or Phoenix, AZ., I just want a high quality product at an acceptable price.

This is totally different from regulation which I am greatly in favor of when inevitable market monopolies happen (electric power grid, communications spectrum, public education, etc

I honestly can’t think of a good macroeconomic reason to justify tariffs. To me, they seem anti-competitive, anti-consumer, and they throw off the balance of the global economy. What’s frustrating is that this feels like a massive issue that the media isn’t really covering properly. They act like there’s a real debate going on, but from where I’m sitting, it looks pretty one-sided—most economists agree tariffs do more harm than good, and yet we don’t hear much about that. It’s like the elephant in the room no one’s talking about.

 

[pjigar]

This may get a visit from Porky soon but I will keep it purely macro level.

I think the trade deficit and associated debt is not a good thing for any country. It robs the productivity and opportunities from the future generations. But tariffs in its traditional definition have a lot of downsides: trade wars, economic disruptions, inflation, etc. There is a very good tool Warren Buffet proposed a while back in 2003. It is a form of tariff but it can be deployed progressively without causing trade wars and economic turmoil.

Warren Buffett: Here’s How I Would Solve the Trade Problem​

 

[HFWR]

Tad close to third rail.

Not an economist.

In some targeted cases, say a small country trying to build an industrial base, maybe a tariff. Or maybe not.

All things being equal, folks in Bangladesh or Ecuador need jobs too. So trade has benefits as well as consequences, intentional or not.

 

[Amethyst]

I tend to agree with you; I think we all learned in high school that high tariffs contributed to the Great Depression. I have heard that tariffs will somehow force industries to return to the U.S. Even if I believed this, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing. Factories pollute air and water, and robots would inevitably take away the low-skilled jobs inside their walls.

Unfortunately, I see no way to discuss the current situation without becoming political and getting shut down. The economic ramifications of tariffs may be more or less moot. It is perhaps safe to point out that a great many people, including some I am close to, do not understand economics and don't care. This is because they believe in a moral, not an economic argument: meaning that the recent high tariffs are justified as a "payback" for "unfair treatment."

 

[Koolau]

In a perfect world where everyone played by the same economic rules, I don't think tariffs have any place. In our current situation of dealing with countries who don't play by the same rules, tariffs may become a necessary evil (could be emphasis on necessary or could be emphasis on evil - depending).

 

[Crewer]

Thank you for the article by Buffett. That situation Buffett describes (not his solution) is more or less what I heard from a financial advisor who apparently thinks the present and promised tariffs are negotiating ploys to get us out of the jam. The FA does think things are going to "hurt" for awhile with maybe a "man-made" recession that could last a number of years. I'm not an economist and can't say one way or the other but the debt we are bequeathing to our kids doesn't seem right. Again I don't really understand, I just think it's morally wrong to saddle the future with debt. To me this is a grand experiment (oops I' not an economist but am an experimentalist) and what happens now should teach me a great deal about economics. I'm 75 and have seen alot - from living on a few thousand a year to our 14% mortgage - but I haven't seen this.

 

[mebden]

This is my take on these tariffs do I like them no but are they needed oh yes I have been around the world and the way these countries talk and act around me an American individual born and raised here and served my country so every individual can do what every they want to succeed in life. We need to even the playing field why would we get charged 100% and then another country gets charged 50% that is crazy that would be like Joe going to bank A and getting 100% interest and me going to bank B and getting 50% interest ahh Duhh. Go get what we deserve and I'm tired of our country giving money to all these countries that have been able to screw us for years sorry this really bothers me as I've seen so much in my life just frustrates me.

 

[Lorenzo]

I believe tariffs could be useful if applied in a limited manner to help protect some domestic industries from unfair competition by countries that subsidize the same industry. But not if applied to industries that have disappeared or already moved to other countries. For them, the market has spoken.

 

[Teacher Terry]

My hometown had a huge auto manufacturing plant and so many people worked there from 1950-1980. Everyone I knew that had a parent working there lost them to a respiratory illness or cancer before the age of 70. Of course osha didn’t come out until 1973. I don’t think people want to go back to that. Plus working on the assembly line was mind numbing I’ve been told.

 

[Koolau]

My hometown had a huge auto manufacturing plant and so many people worked there from 1950-1980. Everyone I knew that had a parent working there lost them to a respiratory illness or cancer before the age of 70. Of course osha didn’t come out until 1973. I don’t think people want to go back to that. Plus working on the assembly line was mind numbing I’ve been told.

I have read that there are people who find the "mind numbing" type assembly line quite suited to their existence. While they can physically perform their required functions, their minds are off in some other satisfying place. It's not for everyone, but apparently is for some people. YMMV

 

[HFWR]

I have read that there are people who find the "mind numbing" type assembly line quite suited to their existence. While they can physically perform their required functions, their minds are off in some other satisfying place. It's not for everyone, but apparently is for some people. YMMV

I ran a bender ( for bending ) quite a bit for about a year. Definitely mind-numbing. But I could play the entire Allman Brothers at Fillmore East in my head.

You learn to adapt. But did I mention it was mind-numbing? Beat chicken moving though…

 

[TickTock]

OP,

I'm not sure how this shakes out from a purely macroeconomic standpoint, but these are my thoughts:

Tariffs can be useful in some cases

• "Leveling the playing field". That's quite a nebulous term, so specifically, taking away economic advantages of (for example)
  • Child labor
  • Unsafe work environments
  • Polluting
• National security (another nebulous term, unfortunately). A country doesn't want to be dependent on adversaries for critical items, which extend far beyond purely military assets (food and energy, for example).

I am old enough to know a refinery electrician who worked pre-OSHA. The company would send their electricians out in the rain to replace a 480V motor starter; their attitude was, "If you don't want to do it, there are ten unemployed people at the gate who will". I don't want to return to those times.

 

[TickTock]

Re: mind-numbing work - there were days that I wished my job was to take a barrel of unsorted (by size) washers, compare them to a chart, and put them in the proper bins, pay to be determined by how many I correctly sized minus errors. But I'm also sure that I would be bored out of my mind by the eighth day. . .

 

[HFWR]

Re: mind-numbing work - there were days that I wished my job was to take a barrel of unsorted (by size) washers, compare them to a chart, and put them in the proper bins, pay to be determined by how many I correctly sized minus errors. But I'm also sure that I would be bored out of my mind by the eighth day. . .

In my experience, there were many who actually liked the job, and actually took a certain amount of pride in their work. And the pay usually beat being a night stocker at IGA, with better benefits.

 

[harley]

I'm a hard no on the tariffs. I don't personally have a problem with running a trade deficit with other countries. I give my grocery store money, and they give me stuff. I don't need to have an even flow of money between us. Now, I am against running a large national debt, which is a completely different thing. But that would require politicians to stop overspending, which is beyond hope.

I think the concept of tariffs forcing manufacturing back to the US is an interesting but eventually hopeless task. I do agree that even if the plants are opened, they will use robots to manufacture. A few people will have jobs maintaining the robots, but it will never be like it was in the 50s and 60s.

I think the only thing the current tariff plan(?) will accomplish is running us into a recession and stagflation, leading to job losses and malaise. So no.

 

[TickTock]

HFWR,

No argument there. And I'd like to think that I'd take pride in my work, regardless of what I was doing. I was contrasting that idea of work with the reality of being on-call (and being called) 24-7. If DW and I were at a movie on Saturday afternoon and the cell phone rang (well, vibrated), I was expected to exit the theater and answer the call. Or I was not "meeting expectations".

Yes, this did actually happen. And was a major driver to me looking for (and finding) alternate employment.

 

[HFWR]

HFWR,

No argument there. And I'd like to think that I'd take pride in my work, regardless of what I was doing. I was contrasting that idea of work with the reality of being on-call (and being called) 24-7. If DW and I were at a movie on Saturday afternoon and the cell phone rang (well, vibrated), I was expected to exit the theater and answer the call. Or I was not "meeting expectations".

Yes, this did actually happen. And was a major driver to me looking for (and finding) alternate employment.

Doing your eight, then clocking out and going home, definitely has its charm.

 

[Ronstar]

I believe in free markets with no tariffs. I’d prefer that more goods were produced domestically, but that would be tough in a free world market.

 

[TickTock]

Doing your eight, then clocking out and going home, definitely has its charm.

Aye. Getting to, at the final point in my career, a position that paid one-for-one hour overtime took a *lot* of the sting out of extra hours. I was no longer being (ab)used without compensation.

 

[skyking1]

I see these tariffs, while possbly having good intent, will raise cost of living and in a regressive manner. Those with the least will pay the most in proportion to their income level. That will fuel recession and stagflation.

 

[GrayHare]

Tariffs happen when other options for raising capital are limited. There's a quote adapted from The Matrix that Morpheus might have used. "Government spending is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

 

[Koolau]

I ran a bender ( for bending ) quite a bit for about a year. Definitely mind-numbing. But I could play the entire Allman Brothers at Fillmore East in my head.

You learn to adapt. But did I mention it was mind-numbing? Beat chicken moving though…

Yeah, w*rking with inanimate objects usually beats w*rking with living objects. Imagine herding cattle or pasturing sheep! "Bending" sounds like a better j*b to me but YMMV.

Before all the big box stores handled vegetable plants and flowering plants, I w*rked for a few minutes for a grower. I transplanted seedlings from flats of hundreds to bakers-dozen sales trays with things like tomato plants, peppers, petunias and the like. This happened one summer - the last summer before K-mart completely killed the grower's business and my j*b. My last assignment for the grower was to dispose of all the unsold bakers-dozen containers of live plants that he could not sell! He actually paid me, but I don't know how.

I bring up this dreary story because it's been repeated in many forms in the past 60 years as cheaper labor in other countries has replaced the w*rkers that used to do "mind-numbing" j*bs, often for decent pay in this country. I don't believe in tariffs to prevent that kind of paradigm shift. It was appropriate that I lost that j*b to K-mart's wholesalers. No way I could compete with their semi-automated bedding plants operation.

 

[Time2]

In a perfect world where everyone played by the same economic rules, I don't think tariffs have any place. In our current situation of dealing with countries who don't play by the same rules, tariffs may become a necessary evil (could be emphasis on necessary or could be emphasis on evil - depending).

I tend to be in agreement, but I also think they are a temporary tool to get the changes we want. I think it is very important that we get our chips produced at home, preferably the majority of them, but at least the chips used by our defense department. Steel production should also be on the list.

 

[FlaGator]

I'm in favor tariffs to reset trade barriers, whether they are a traditional tariff or another form of trade barrier that limit imports. Look at the EU for ready examples of non-tariff barriers to trade.

There's also a concern about being self-sufficient, or at least dependent upon reliable, long-standing partners, for critical needs.

If the recent announcements bring >50 countries to the table (or is it 70?), and we stay the tariffs during negotiations in order to reset the relationship, IMO that's not a bad outcome.

But I should upgrade my iPhone 11 in the next few days

 

[HFWR]

In some ways, I think we’re approaching, what to call it, post-modern overload. Not only have we seemingly decided not to address various issues, we’re now denying they even exist. And that’s true across whatever political spectrum, though it might manifest itself in different ways.