Future of College and University Athletics

[Pellice]

One thing AI pointed out to me that I hadn't realized, though it is glaringly obvous, is just how much the tax exempt status of universities helps Big Time Athletics, and how much a spin-off would cost any group organizing a semi-pro team. The tax-exempt status is the hill they would die on.

Not sure what the answer is but there's no way a separate private minor league would generate the money and interest that college football and basketball does. The current system is too top heavy, the same teams making most of the money and getting the best talent (kind of sounds like the Dodgers). Notre Dame didn't make the playoffs but the football program still takes in over $140M in revenue, not many teams can compete with that. If Notre Dame became the Indiana Buckaroos minor league team they would be lucky to take in 1/10th of their current revenue.

Yes, but that is the point - the costs of these sports is unsustainable. Even for the top rated teams. I didn't realize how many expenses are NOT charged to athletics departments, such as facilities insurance and legal fees, but apparently NO athletics department "really" makes enough to cover ALL its expenses. And apparently everyone knows this. And almost invariably, if the public is asked to vote to pay taxes for public loans to upgrade athletic facilities, the public votes it down. So the public knows it too. But the forces of momentum are unstoppable. Until - the bond market starts threatening downgrades to university's borrowing power, OR there is legislation at the congressional level forcing real accounting. That is, OUTSIDE intervention.

This was an example of a fascinating long discussion with an AI chatbot where I really learned a lot. I asked AI to predict the timeline of the unraveling of the system, and it gave me 5-10 years.

 

[wrigley]

College football is a joke. Just look at Notre Dame this year. They didn't make the top 12 so their answer was: "We refuse to play in a bowl game." If 30 team are taken into the college football playoff, the 31st and 32nd teams will b^tch that they should have been accepted.

 

[Spock]

I blocked the alumni fundraisers phone number when my alma mater:
1. Was so focused on joining Division I sports they literally changed the name of the university because their initials were already in use by another Division I "school".
2. The university (land grant school in an ag industry state) bragged their beer sales at football games crossed $600K... then closed down their dairy herd because they couldn't afford $300k to keep it going.

When I was a dorm RA we were notified when students on our floor were falling behind academically (received deficiency or "dink" slips)... we were supposed to discuss with the student if they needed study help, etc. I was on the "football floor" and the response I got was "It's ok... I talked to the coach and he says I can keep my eligibility".

 

[Montecfo]

I really wish big time college sports was the biggest problem with education in the US.

If it were that would be a great day!

 

[GravitySucks]

I can’t remember the last time a top tier basketball team had a student sit out games because of academic ineligibility.

 

[Koolau]

I really wish big time college sports was the biggest problem with education in the US.

If it were that would be a great day!

Yeah, no money to be made in K-12 I guess.

 

[junkanoo]

I blocked the alumni fundraisers phone number when my alma mater:
1. Was so focused on joining Division I sports they literally changed the name of the university because their initials were already in use by another Division I "school".
2. The university (land grant school in an ag industry state) bragged their beer sales at football games crossed $600K... then closed down their dairy herd because they couldn't afford $300k to keep it going.

When I was a dorm RA we were notified when students on our floor were falling behind academically (received deficiency or "dink" slips)... we were supposed to discuss with the student if they needed study help, etc. I was on the "football floor" and the response I got was "It's ok... I talked to the coach and he says I can keep my eligibility".

AI guesses that the school is: University of Louisiana at Monroe.

 

[camfused]

Since I am associated with the music program at a local college, I could not care less what happens to athletic programs at universities. If the universities run short of money, they will cut the arts. And, sorry, I do not believe that any surplus money (if there is any) that the sports programs generates goes to the arts.

 

[junkanoo]

Since I am associated with the music program at a local college, I could not care less what happens to athletic programs at universities. If the universities run short of money, they will cut the arts. And, sorry, I do not believe that any surplus money (if there is any) that the sports programs generates goes to the arts.

Understood. But for larger schools, it's not that simple.

For example, look at UCONN. Back in the day, if you went to UConn (Storrs Campus), that meant it was either what you could afford or what you could get into (or both). Nobody I know wanted to go there other than the kids whose parents owned dairy farms (I'm not kidding). Flash forward to say 2010 and many of their programs are quite selective (and certainly the most selective state school in New England by a long shot). Additionally, the interest in out-of-state students paying a little more than DOUBLE what in-state students pay has significantly risen.

So, what changed? Basketball. Raising many national banners both in the women and men's programs. So, it's not a matter of basketball feeding money to the arts, it's a matter of schools that get more successful in recruiting students means that UCONN doesn't run short of money and therefore doesn't have to cut the arts. Which is a great thing.

 

[Spock]

AI guesses that the school is: University of Louisiana at Monroe.

Ha. Add another example to the "AI got it wrong" thread.

 

[Pellice]

Today's Washington Post article is VERY Relevant. Here's a gift link good for 14 days: https://wapo.st/4sd1rwv
Apparently the athletic departments are asking for loans from private equity firms in exchange for future earnings repayments. I'm no expert, but to me that suggests they don't have enough money to pay athletes.

 

[Luvtoride]

A bargain indeed…for a National Championship! As a long suffering Hoosier Daddy (my daughter graduated 20 years ago) it was exciting to see them win a championship in a sport other than basketball! Congratulations Indiana!

 

[wrigley]

A bargain indeed…for a National Championship! As a long suffering Hoosier Daddy (my daughter graduated 20 years ago) it was exciting to see them win a championship in a sport other than basketball! Congratulations Indiana!

My brother got his MBA there in the early 80's. We were pulling for IU. No longer just a pretty basketball school

 

[Winemaker]

Carson Beck admitted he hasn't taken a class in 2 years, and that he graduated before he transferred to Miami.

MSN

 

[Luvtoride]

Carson Beck admitted he hasn't taken a class in 2 years, and that he graduated before he transferred to Miami.

MSN

graduated, without taking classes?

 

[RunningBum]

I was just reading somewhere (can't find it again) that some players went into the portal and got no takers. They tried to return to their team and they had no place for them. I'm guessing these were backups who thought they'd get a better shot elsewhere.

 

[G POP]

A bargain indeed…for a National Championship! As a long suffering Hoosier Daddy (my daughter graduated 20 years ago) it was exciting to see them win a championship in a sport other than basketball! Congratulations Indiana!

Thank you, Mark Cuban!

 

[G POP]

I was just reading somewhere (can't find it again) that some players went into the portal and got no takers. They tried to return to their team and they had no place for them. I'm guessing these were backups who thought they'd get a better shot elsewhere.

It's happened each year the portal has been open. Football and basketball. It gets worse every year. Pro agents are certified by NFL, NBA, etc... In college any Tom, Dick or Betty can be an agent for these college athletes. Someone in their ear tells them they are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that they can get more $ somewhere else. Right now, there are over 10K football players in the portal. 10K D1 football scholarships don't exist. In FCS, D2, D3 and NAIA there are plenty of players who used to be D1 scholarship players who didn't find a D1 landing spot after entering the portal.

 

[sengsational]

The human brain must "need" high stakes competition. My brain? Not so much.

I don't pay much attention, so probably a dumb question: In the financial analysis, is alumni involvement considered? I imagine that alumni involvement (contributions) would drop off significantly if there were fewer engaging and/or less engaging sports. And about engagement, I wonder if teams are made up from players from anywhere and are always changing, that makes for less interesting play.

I still remember when the Twins were in some kind of playoff (I was age 5 or so) and they were talking about some team members were from somewhere other than Minnesota. I called BS on the whole thing, and walked out of the room

 

[G POP]

I still remember when the Twins were in some kind of playoff (I was age 5 or so) and they were talking about some team members were from somewhere other than Minnesota. I called BS on the whole thing, and walked out of the room

My father had some interesting ideas regarding sports. For college, if a basketball team had say 12 players, 6 would be required to be from that state. In pro football, the players would have to put up 50% of their game check. If they won, they would keep their whole game check plus 50% of their opponent's game check. Talk about no one ever giving up and throwing in the towel.

When a star player's team would make the playoffs that player may actually take a per game haircut to play in the playoffs. Say $100,000 per game during the season and might only make an additional $50,000 or less for a playoff game.

 

[jollystomper]

Carson Beck admitted he hasn't taken a class in 2 years, and that he graduated before he transferred to Miami.

MSN

graduated, without taking classes?

He took classes and graduated from Georgia. He then went to Miami as he still had athletic eligibility.

Under the current football Division 1 redshirt, a student can appear in to 4 regular season games before the year counts towards their 4 year athletic eligibility (and I believe they can petition for additional years under various circumstances, like injury; the pandemic also granted many an additional year).

They can only have 1 redshirt year, effectively giving them 5 years of eligiblity. This does not include post-regular season games). So one can play in 4 games during the season, and every tournament or playoff game the team participates in, and that year will not count towards their athletic eligibility.

There are many cases of players getting a degree from a college but, due to the rules, still have 2 or even 3 years of eligibility left, and going to another school to continue to play. They enroll as graduate students, garudate courses and times are treated differently, and not scrutinized as closesly since the player already has a bachlors degree.

It is a very complex machination. I believe their is now a recommendation to the NCAA from the college coaches to expand the allowed games in a redshirt year from four to nine.

One (perhaps unfortunately) has to look at college football in business terms these days. With all the NIL money being given out, coaches want to be able to get as much return on that spending as possible. .

 

[jollystomper]

The human brain must "need" high stakes competition. My brain? Not so much.

I don't pay much attention, so probably a dumb question: In the financial analysis, is alumni involvement considered? I imagine that alumni involvement (contributions) would drop off significantly if there were fewer engaging and/or less engaging sports. And about engagement, I wonder if teams are made up from players from anywhere and are always changing, that makes for less interesting play.

Alumni make up a big part of the source of NIL money. Those alumni focus more on how the school is doing, that an individual player, so the players coming from anywhere and changing matters less than how the team is doing.

One example is Indiana. Mark Cuban is an Indiana alum, and has contributed a lot of money to their NIL program. Some reports say he has been the biggest donor.

Their are also indirect donations from alumni, for example their connections to companies that can provide sponsorship money towards a University's NIL effort. It is one reason schools are now trying to cater even more to their wealthier alumni.

While not (in the past) NIL related, one reason the Ivy League and other prominent schools have such high endowments is due to the "care, feeding, and catering" of the alums. I served as an alumni rep for my university, and DW served on our university alumni board; we saw a lot of "behind-the-scenes" programs and efforts to help garner those large donations. Other schools are now taking note and starting to implement similar things.

 

[yakers]

The human brain must "need" high stakes competition. My brain? Not so much.

I don't pay much attention, so probably a dumb question: In the financial analysis, is alumni involvement considered? I imagine that alumni involvement (contributions) would drop off significantly if there were fewer engaging and/or less engaging sports. .....

AFAIK, Harvard, MIT, Caltech, U of Chicago and others have no problem with alumni doncations without sports interest.

 

[sengsational]

AFAIK, Harvard, MIT, Caltech, U of Chicago and others have no problem with alumni doncations without sports interest.

I presume those schools don't play the big-money sports thing. But for schools that DO play that game, I've got to assume that some donors are "all about the sports" and if that became less interesting, they might fall away. Maybe it will remain interesting, even though it's big business. But how satisfying is it to win against a significantly less funded school?

 

[Gumby]

To put a twist on someone's tagline here, "anything that can be monetized, will be monetized". And I think much of that monetization diminishes our communal lives together.