Having more time (or not)

[Diogenes]

...Contributions of most folks on this earth, whether Albert Einstein, Alexander the great and such, can be and will be rendered moot by universe in time-equivalent of human travel of few light years.

Since you mention it, Einstein effectively retired when he escaped Germany in 1933. He was 54 years old. He found a plum job at Princeton, where he worked on what he liked, lectured if he wanted to... and if not, not. He was both retired, and not. Famously, he dismissed money as some pointless quest signifying nothing, a distraction from more fundamental passions. He didn't own his own house, or even a car. And yet, he was consummately taken care-of. I don't think that he ever worried about safe withdrawal rate, a bond-tent, the Red Zone, RMDs, tax-torpedoes, or health insurance. He wafted along, in quasi-work and quasi-leisure, until his death. Nice, isn't it? But it helps to be Einstein. Most of the rest of us, have to choose A or B... "A" being work-work-work in the conventional sense, "B" being full-time golf.

But imagine if Einstein remained at the Swiss patent office, in his spare time practicing violin, instead of doing physics. He'd have been a lifelong civil servant, with (one hopes) cushy pension and a drama-free life in Switzerland, while Germany and the rest of the world burning around him. Serene, but insignificant. Would Mankind, have been better off? What would this alternative-Einstein be thinking, in his 70s, looking back on his life, and wondering what-if?

 

[yhoomajor]

Would Mankind, have been better off?

That is subjective. If you think material success is better off, then US would be the happiest place in world. Its not.. On the contrary we have the highest number of stressed out depressed population. Most happy places have been that are farthest from latest pseudo technology. It is all downhill once TV and phones show up in a country.

 

[Diogenes]

That is subjective. If you think material success is better off, then US would be the happiest place in world. Its not.. On the contrary we have the highest number of stressed out depressed population. Most happy places have been that are farthest from latest pseudo technology. It is all downhill once TV and phones show up in a country.

Well, that's a fascinating question in its own right... Is "happiness" congruent with being "better off"? Were Neanderthals happier than Homo Sapiens? Did the Neolithic Revolution bring more happiness, or less? What about knowledge of writing? Or math? Does self-awareness itself bring happiness, or not? Deep stuff.

Stepping back from the metaphysics, we ask about material wealth vs. happiness. My namesake in ancient Greece, contemptuously spurned material goods. Was he happier? Perhaps he wasn't happier in any Aristotelian sense (eudaimonia?), but he attained some higher profundity, or awareness, or some such thing. Or not? Do we say, that enlightenment <==> happiness? If not, does the one preclude the other? It's easy to get confused. Folks have been confusing themselves over this topic in a formal way for 2500 years, and informally probably for 10 times longer than that.

More specifically to your point, Americans have a cultural habit of asserting their happiness, regardless of their internal state. The feeling, perhaps, stems from dogged belief that we're free to shape our own lives, that the responsibility is ours. There is no deniability, no smarmy blaming of The Man. If we fail, it's on us. If we're unhappy, it's because we made bad choices. Who wants to admit having made bad choices? Thus we go around looking happy-happy-happy. Perhaps part of the stress, is from self-imposed imperative to be happy?

 

[aja8888]

Being happy! That's a subject all to itself. We also have pills for that feeling.

 

[FlaGator]

Since you mention it, Einstein effectively retired when he escaped Germany in 1933. He was 54 years old. He found a plum job at Princeton, where he worked on what he liked, lectured if he wanted to... and if not, not. He was both retired, and not. Famously, he dismissed money as some pointless quest signifying nothing, a distraction from more fundamental passions. He didn't own his own house, or even a car. And yet, he was consummately taken care-of. I don't think that he ever worried about safe withdrawal rate, a bond-tent, the Red Zone, RMDs, tax-torpedoes, or health insurance. He wafted along, in quasi-work and quasi-leisure, until his death. Nice, isn't it? But it helps to be Einstein. Most of the rest of us, have to choose A or B... "A" being work-work-work in the conventional sense, "B" being full-time golf.

But imagine if Einstein remained at the Swiss patent office, in his spare time practicing violin, instead of doing physics. He'd have been a lifelong civil servant, with (one hopes) cushy pension and a drama-free life in Switzerland, while Germany and the rest of the world burning around him. Serene, but insignificant. Would Mankind, have been better off? What would this alternative-Einstein be thinking, in his 70s, looking back on his life, and wondering what-if?

I periodically spend too much time as it is with scenarios of how my life would be had I made different decisions at certain points, and if I didn't find myself a single parent. Try to minimize thinking about those. Don't give a rat's a$$ about any other person's potential outcomes, including Einstein's.

Interesting thought, if I didn't have enough to deal with as it is. For me a complete waste of time, my situation is consuming enough.

One plays the hand they are dealt, play it hard, and play to win.

 

[Koolau]

Retirement gave me the opportunity to teach a university class for 8 years which was something I had never done before and it was so fun. Now I work about 200 hours a year testing injured workers which was my main career and I still find it fun and rewarding. Everyone needs to find what works for them personally.

I guess it's odd, but the accomplishment I'm proudest of is creating a dual level lab course in my field at a major university. It was all by serendipity. One of the profs in my MS degree got deathly sick and knew that I was actually "doing" the w*rk at Megacorp so he turned over much of the teaching to me in the course w*rk and then we (mostly me) put together a lab course which included all the stuff I did every day at Megacorp. What a concept! Someone who didn't just learn it out of a book was teaching from real life experience. What will they think of next?

But, if you went back now and asked how that course came into being, no one would have a clue and certainly no one would remember my name. I was just a part-time Masters candidate, filling in for a professor while my "real j*b" was at Megacorp.

The real irony was that Megacorp. never rewarded me for my academic achievements (which in theory they wanted staff people to accomplish) and I got paid almost nothing at the university for the w*rk I did. BUT they can't take away my memories. Though no one else remembers my accomplishment, I do. That's good enough for me. Recognition and remembrance are over rated IMHO but YMMV.

 

[Diogenes]

.. the accomplishment I'm proudest of is creating a dual level lab course in my field at a major university. ...

The real irony was that Megacorp. never rewarded me for my academic achievements (which in theory they wanted staff people to accomplish) and I got paid almost nothing at the university for the w*rk I did. BUT they can't take away my memories. Though no one else remembers my accomplishment, I do. That's good enough for me. Recognition and remembrance are over rated IMHO but YMMV.

No irony at all! To clarify, when I refer to recognition or being remembered, or "significance", what I really mean, isn't whether Megacorp or the University remembered you, or if they remunerated you highly... but whether a hypothetical omniscient and perfectly impartial abstract judge (not to give this a religious tincture) would remember you. Put another way... have you done worthy things, righteous things, for which you merit being thus remembered? A crude, bumbling and philistine world may never have recognized your merits. So much the worse for them! But... do you legitimately deserve such merits? If so, then that's all that matters. But if not, then even if you earned hundreds of millions, etc. ... it's all frippery and guff.

 

[Winemaker]

As my son is now moving up the food chain in his career, I reminded him of my ascent. When advancement presented itself, I prayed not for the position, but for whatever was best for the family. When we retired at 56, we had enough money, and enough of the BS.

But all of my life, whether as a coach, landlord, team mate, boss, father, sibling, retiree, I try to be a good person and give joy to those around me. Next month, we'll be retired 10 years!

 

[DrRoy]

On my last day of work, the woman who sat behind me said to have a happy retirement. I told her that in a day or two, it will be like I was never here. She reluctantly agreed.

It was typical in my group to have some sort of event when someone retired. There was one scheduled for me, but when a customer emergency canceled that day, it was never rescheduled.

On the plus side, there is a Christmas reunion that I go to every year, and last year some new guy that I did not know said "so you're the one". My name was on a lot of documentation that is still used.

 

[rembrandt]

"Frippery and guff" --- I had to look that up!

 

[Teacher Terry]

My greatest accomplishments have been raising my kids and helping my friends and family. When my neighbor’s mom died unexpectedly her hopes of getting off welfare to go to school and work were shattered. I barely knew her but helped her come up with a plan.

It mainly involved my husband and I watching her youngest every morning before the head start bus picked her up. I was going to college full time and luckily my husband was working second shift. But he lost sleep having to get up earlier some semesters. She recruited her dad and I recruited my mom to fill in as needed. She got a college degree and good job.

Through the years I have helped many people remain in their homes while nearing the end of life. I just finished helping my 8th friend downsize her stuff. I realized that physically I can’t do this anymore but I finished the project. Once my kids are gone no one will remember me but I made the world better for a few people and I’m happy about that. Now at 70 I’m focusing on what I want to do for the remainder of my time.

 

[sparky08]

True. They can't find Alexander the Great's either!

Don't give up! Ten-ish years ago, they found King Richard III's grave under a parking garage. He died in the 1400's .

I quit my final full-time job two years ago. If I went back, many wouldn't know me. But that's OK.

 

[Andre1969]

On my last day of work, the woman who sat behind me said to have a happy retirement. I told her that in a day or two, it will be like I was never here. She reluctantly agreed.

In a similar vein, we used to have this one secretary at work, that I thought was pretty cool. One of those people that I would say was elevated to "work friend" status. One time, in my naivety, I mentioned that we should keep in touch after she retired. This was back when I was in my 30s, and she was probably at least 20 years older than me. She just looked at me a bit sad and said something along the lines of "Honestly, you know that's not going to happen. No matter how much you want it to, people just don't stay in touch after they leave work." And, for the most part it does seem true that your work friends really aren't your "real" friends. Once the thing that brings you together (work) is taken out of the equation, you usually just go your separate ways.

Most of the people from the past in my career are forgotten. Or, at least out of sight, out of mind. If I think about it long and hard enough, some of them and their memories will pop up, but I don't dwell on it.

As for this secretary, Maggie, I guess she could also serve as one of those cautionary tales for "It's Later Than You Think." We got kicked out of our building in late 2009, and our project was split between two different buildings. And then in early 2010 I went to a completely different project. So, we'd email each other every once in awhile. And if I happened to be in her building, I'd stop off and say hi.

Well, her husband was already retired, and they bought a motorhome, and were planning on spending their retirement traveling cross country. Well, the husband passed away in early 2013, while Maggie was still working. Maggie finally retired in October of 2014. I heard she hit financial problems, sold everything here in Maryland, and moved in with her sister in Iowa or Nebraska or something like that, and was miserable.

 

[Koolau]

One time, in my naivety, I mentioned that we should keep in touch after she retired. This was back when I was in my 30s, and she was probably at least 20 years older than me. She just looked at me a bit sad and said something along the lines of "Honestly, you know that's not going to happen.

Yesterday, after traveling a short distance to a local festival, I stopped at one of my direct-report's house and said "hi!" I've seen her 3 times in the 19 years since I left Megacorp (last time was at her husband's funeral.)

SO, it can happen. Just not very often in my case though YMMV.

 

[Music Lover]

In a similar vein, we used to have this one secretary at work, that I thought was pretty cool. One of those people that I would say was elevated to "work friend" status. One time, in my naivety, I mentioned that we should keep in touch after she retired. This was back when I was in my 30s, and she was probably at least 20 years older than me. She just looked at me a bit sad and said something along the lines of "Honestly, you know that's not going to happen. No matter how much you want it to, people just don't stay in touch after they leave work." And, for the most part it does seem true that your work friends really aren't your "real" friends. Once the thing that brings you together (work) is taken out of the equation, you usually just go your separate ways.

I'm still friends with several people that I used to work with.

But I worked at the same place for 30+ years and met many of them in my 20's, so there was always a get together or a party, drinks after work, sports leagues, etc.

 

[Diogenes]

In a similar vein, we used to have this one secretary at work, that I thought was pretty cool. One of those people that I would say was elevated to "work friend" status. ...

Most of the people from the past in my career are forgotten. Or, at least out of sight, out of mind. If I think about it long and hard enough, some of them and their memories will pop up, but I don't dwell on it.

Well, her husband was already retired, and they bought a motorhome, and were planning on spending their retirement traveling cross country. Well, the husband passed away in early 2013, while Maggie was still working. ...

This Maggie had what sounds like a good marriage, and concerted post-retirement plans. Whether she retired early, or "on time", she had considerable impetus to leave the workforce and to pursue other interests. Her job also sounds rather humdrum. Imagine on the contrary had Maggie been VP for business development, had no spouse or children, no desire to travel-around in the motorhome, and her main "hobby" was traveling to trade-shows and conferences on the company dollar. Bit of a different pre-retirement situation, no? But... that's a subject for another thread, one supposes.

What I did want to mention presently, is that there is a third category of employee, who is not remembered as a friend, and not forgotten either. Maggie fits that category as an anecdote, but I can think of numerous cases from my former workplace, whose contribution has been etched into corporate and cultural memory. Currently I am in "barista FIRE", and my "barista" job is part-time adjunct lecturer. The other day, I was chatting with a fellow adjunct, who is in his 80s. Yes, 80s! The guy mentioned a luminary in our field, with whom he worked back in the 1970s. I knew that guy... he was boss's boss's boss, back when I was a youngin in the organization. He's one of the grand names in our field. No idea, what happened to him after retirement (if he's alive, he's pushing 100)... but his name is mentioned in textbooks, and his professional memory will never fade, even if he's eventually forgotten as a person.

 

[skipro33]

"...A gentleman is someone who knows how to play the accordion but doesn't..."

Extreme Accordion Skills

 

[target2019]

Nowise disparaging anyone's retirement philosophy (whether still working, about to retire, recently retired, or retired for decades), but I can't help wondering, philosophically: why do we place such high value on our time? As an employee, my time was worth $X/hour, determined by some kind of corporate accounting. For unpaid workers such as homemakers, an effective hourly rate could be estimated, at least approximately. But beyond mere dollars, I am genuinely baffled: OK, now I have time, to do... whatever. What if I lack the character, imagination, mental space, poise or aplomb, to do... much of anything? No, I don't mean gloriously languid enjoyment of early-fall weather in the back yard, sipping lemonade. Instead I mean a finger-sucking stultified confusion, not merely of what to do, but why to do it.

Time, to me, is something whose passage is to be celebrated. I am this year, one year older, than last year... a fact that I embrace... not as some Stoic acceptance, but with genuine joy! One year older, is one year better. One day older - that being today, relative to yesterday - is incrementally one day better, too. This was also true when I was still working full-time, but at least back then, there was something to regiment my day. Even insufferably boring meetings, were a task, a time-filler. I don't miss going to meetings, but I do miss the easy participatory sense, that one is part of the stream-of-time... as opposed to standing exterior to it, watching and waiting.

Anyone else feel this way? Or am I growing insane?

"why do we place such high value on our time?"

I've always placed more value on my time than others have in the past., and continue to do so.

It's part of my drive to offset underpayment for 40 years or so. Smile.

The knowledge and experience I and others have at our command is extremely valuable to others, at the proper moment.

For instance, I was on a ZOOM with another genealogy researcher, looked at his output, with errors, and knew where the automatic tool went wrong. And I'm not a programmer, but have dipped my toe into that enough to have decent troubleshooting skills. Many others on here have the same abilities.

 

[Winemaker]

As an underground mine foreman, one was required to make examinations of all travelways, airways, beltlines, work areas. That examiner, had to put his DTIs (date, time, initials) in chalk, as proof that he/she was in that area. Some mines used date boards, that were wiped away by the next examiner, or one could write on a concrete wall, overcast or I beam that might have been added for extra roof support. As one who was scheduled to work some holidays, I would put my DTIs up in a conspicuous place for many to see. The superintendent chastised me for "showing everbody that I w*rked Christmas", I simply explained that my DTIs, will still be there for years, and it might have been the last Christmas or whatever, that a love one was still alive.

Many mines I was employed at over the years were opened in 1968, 1969, 1904, 1938, 1958, 1988, and many DTIs were still readable on various locations through out the mines. One DTI I saw once was 11/22/63 on the midnight shift, written on the morning JFK was assassinated.

I'm sure my DTIs will be in underground places for a very long time.


Another cool thing I remembered, was my son and I traveled to the Stonewall Jackson Dam in WV, 3 days prior to the scheduled filling of the dam. We walked to the bottom of the dam at the sluice gates, put up our DTIs in fireboss chalk and left. There is definite proof we were there for eons.

 

[Koolau]

As an underground mine foreman, one was required to make examinations of all travelways, airways, beltlines, work areas. That examiner, had to put his DTIs (date, time, initials) in chalk, as proof that he/she was in that area. Some mines used date boards, that were wiped away by the next examiner, or one could write on a concrete wall, overcast or I beam that might have been added for extra roof support. As one who was scheduled to work some holidays, I would put my DTIs up in a conspicuous place for many to see. The superintendent chastised me for "showing everbody that I w*rked Christmas", I simply explained that my DTIs, will still be there for years, and it might have been the last Christmas or whatever, that a love one was still alive.

Many mines I was employed at over the years were opened in 1968, 1969, 1904, 1938, 1958, 1988, and many DTIs were still readable on various locations through out the mines. One DTI I saw once was 11/22/63 on the midnight shift, written on the morning JFK was assassinated.

I'm sure my DTIs will be in underground places for a very long time.


Another cool thing I remembered, was my son and I traveled to the Stonewall Jackson Dam in WV, 3 days prior to the scheduled filling of the dam. We walked to the bottom of the dam at the sluice gates, put up our DTIs in fireboss chalk and left. There is definite proof we were there for eons.

Our plant site used "watch clocks." I don't know how long the tapes were maintained, but I'm betting they got archived if anyone were ever interested.

Security Guard Tour Verification - Watchman's Clocks | Central Time Clock, Inc. - Since 1931. New York, NY

I was assigned a code number to use whenever I made an observation or entered a result onto a form or into a computer. In theory, that code number never got recycled (retiring a Jersey comes to mind ) So, someplace on a computer tape or in the cloud or some such, everything "official" that I ever did bears my number/date/result/etc. We all knew each other by our code numbers and occasionally joked about old "KCK137" who always left early for lunch or some such trivial reference.

I used to live in fear that years later someone would come back and say "You're JLL211. Back in 1974, you approved use of this batch of Inverted Magnetic Widget Coating. Turns out it was defective and we're being sued!"
Fortunately, after 50 years - it's never happened.

Heh, heh, have you ever been to NYC? They tag anything that doesn't move and some that do (like trains.) I guess it's a kind of immortality?? At this point, I don't mind being forgotten by everyone but family and a few friends. YMMV

 

[FLSUnFIRE]

Since FIREing, I get asked occasionally what I do. Sometimes I feel my answer is totally inadequate, I had a great day but didn't do anything "exciting" to share. Enjoyed my coffee, went for a walk, made lunch*, etc... Other days are full of fun sounding stuff but every moment can't be exciting. I'm content and in a good mood most of the time... much more so than when I was working (I think control is a piece of that, I also just think being older and wiser plays a part). I definitely perceive more angst and discontent in my working friends -even the ones with "exciting" lives and those that "love" their job. My happiest friends are all retired or work for themselves/gig work on their terms. I am a pretty active person but not immune and occasionally have a day that I feel I'm being lazy and squandering my time; when I feel that way I remind myself of all the days in the past that were super busy yet completely non-productive.

* I like the luxury of not rushing through life and doing mundane things mindfully. I make the slow cook steel cut oat meal for breakfast on the stove top, I make my lunch daily instead of the same sandwich I prepped ahead when working, I enjoy my coffee rather than slamming the caffeine, etc. One doesn't need to be retired to be mindful but it definitely reduces a lot of the mental noise that distracts people from being present.

I feel like an addendum is needed. Since Helene hit, I've used my freedom to help 4 different friends and acquaintances pack/clean up from their flooded houses. I wouldn't have been able to do so if I was still working. So, for the past week, I have a pretty "adequate" answer of what I do with my time.... wish I was sitting around in my underwear eating bonbons than what I'm doing though but grateful I can offer a little bit of help. It's rough seeing the destruction and disruption to so many people's lives and property.

 

[NeilDH]

I feel like an addendum is needed. Since Helene hit, I've used my freedom to help 4 different friends and acquaintances pack/clean up from their flooded houses. I wouldn't have been able to do so if I was still working. So, for the past week, I have a pretty "adequate" answer of what I do with my time.... wish I was sitting around in my underwear eating bonbons than what I'm doing though but grateful I can offer a little bit of help. It's rough seeing the destruction and disruption to so many people's lives and property.

I love all of this: the earlier message about how to respond to "what do you do?" and feeling lazy or inadequate (especially as I'm still in my rookie FIRE year and just 54), about actually filling the day being mindful about the mundane activities (sitting on the deck this summer -- amazing), and how pleasant that is. And then loving having the flexibility to be able to help out when needed. For me and so many of us, that's been older relatives (occasionally younger ones, too). Maybe not always fun, but at last I can be there for them.

 

[Diogenes]

Since Helene hit, I've used my freedom to help 4 different friends and acquaintances pack/clean up from their flooded houses. I wouldn't have been able to do so if I was still working. So, for the past week, I have a pretty "adequate" answer of what I do with my time.... wish I was sitting around in my underwear eating bonbons than what I'm doing though but grateful I can offer a little bit of help. It's rough seeing the destruction and disruption to so many people's lives and property.

Perhaps my former jobs were inordinately easy and blessed. If there were ample cause to disappear for a week, for a family emergency or some community good-deed, then I could have thus disappeared, with no consequence. Even while on the job, there was copious down-time. Sitting in a meeting, I could have my laptop open and surf the internet, for example posting on forums. Leaving the meeting, I'd slink back into my office, and do whatever... phone calls, nap, read a novel, look up my stocks. Then after 5 or 10 minutes of "thinking", I'd conjure some kind of ersatz-clever tasks for other people, so that they'd be awed at how "dedicated" I am to our oh-so-deep strategic vision (or was that merely tactical? I forget now.

In short, work never crimped my capacity to do other things. On the contrary, it was a way of networking, meeting people, learning about the world, and yes, traveling. As a semi-retiree, now all of these things have to be on my own initiative, not to mention, on my own dime.

 

[Koolau]

Perhaps my former jobs were inordinately easy and blessed. If there were ample cause to disappear for a week, for a family emergency or some community good-deed, then I could have thus disappeared, with no consequence. Even while on the job, there was copious down-time. Sitting in a meeting, I could have my laptop open and surf the internet, for example posting on forums. Leaving the meeting, I'd slink back into my office, and do whatever... phone calls, nap, read a novel, look up my stocks. Then after 5 or 10 minutes of "thinking", I'd conjure some kind of ersatz-clever tasks for other people, so that they'd be awed at how "dedicated" I am to our oh-so-deep strategic vision (or was that merely tactical? I forget now.

In short, work never crimped my capacity to do other things. On the contrary, it was a way of networking, meeting people, learning about the world, and yes, traveling. As a semi-retiree, now all of these things have to be on my own initiative, not to mention, on my own dime.

Ah, yes. I guess we all had "w*rk arounds" for w*rk.

 

[NeilDH]

Perhaps my former jobs were inordinately easy and blessed. If there were ample cause to disappear for a week, for a family emergency or some community good-deed, then I could have thus disappeared, with no consequence. Even while on the job, there was copious down-time. Sitting in a meeting, I could have my laptop open and surf the internet, for example posting on forums. Leaving the meeting, I'd slink back into my office, and do whatever... phone calls, nap, read a novel, look up my stocks. Then after 5 or 10 minutes of "thinking", I'd conjure some kind of ersatz-clever tasks for other people, so that they'd be awed at how "dedicated" I am to our oh-so-deep strategic vision (or was that merely tactical? I forget now.

In short, work never crimped my capacity to do other things. On the contrary, it was a way of networking, meeting people, learning about the world, and yes, traveling. As a semi-retiree, now all of these things have to be on my own initiative, not to mention, on my own dime.

W*rk for me indeed "was a way of networking, meeting people, learning about the world, and yes, traveling," and now I have to re-create those things (though my traveling mainly came from my involvement with a professional association that I'm still a part of), but I certainly didn't have the capacity to do other things, so that time is very valuable to me now.