How many engineers does it take to change a light DIMMER?

[ERD50]

Nothing is easy. The home we bought has a finished basement (not original to the home). The previous (original) owners made sure there was plenty of light down there. I counted 38 can lights in the living area ( a few more in the storage areas). Seven switched circuits (4 of them '3-way'), with dimmers on all.

Well, on the most used one at the bottom of the stairs, the little rocker on/off switch was getting flaky and sometimes arcing, so I wanted to replace that ASAP. And of course, I want to 'future proof' it, and get an LED compatible dimmer (all the installed bulbs are old filament style). There are seven 65W bulbs on this dimmer, so that's 455 Watts.

What I found was, most of the in-stock dimmer/SW combos that are LED/filament compatible now assume you are using mostly LED, and are only rated for 150 watts. I'm also picky about the form factor of the switch, so that limits my choices further. The failing one has a small rocker switch, and a larger dimmer slide-knob, and it's tough to hit that little rocker to turn it on/off if I'm carrying something. So I want the one with the large rocker SW and smaller dimmer slider.

Found this dimmer in stock at Home Depot, Leviton Model # R11-DSL06-1TW
078477762783 UNIV 3WAY D <A> $22.98 DECORA WHT ROCKER DIMMER 3WAY UNIV

Electrical for DSL06
n Input 120VAC @ 60Hz
n 600W Incandescent
n 300W (2.5A) LED and CFL
n Single pole and 3-way
n Optional locator light

I also decided to get some LEDs for this dimmer circuit, so I could repurpose the old filament bulbs on the other circuits for any bulbs that burn out (you can't get them anymore, and the other installed dimmers aren't LED compatible). That sort of negates the need for +455W filament for the dimmer, but just in case old bulbs got put in there.

Next... I've read (and experienced) that some LEDs or LED dimmers just don't work so well, random flickering, odd response to the dimmer, etc. And even that a particular dimmer might work well with one LED type/brand, but not another, but that LED works well with a different dimmer, and so on. Well, Leviton includes a compatibility chart on their web site, and ones marked with an * are considered very good. So I had to go to Menards to find those bulbs in stock. I got a 6 pack for $16 of Feit BR30DM Soft White (2700K). But I wonder, can't the mfg change their design, making that chart obsolete? Anyway, the ones I bought seem to work well, lighting close to filament quality.

At this point, I think I'll buy 2 more of those dimmers and another pack or two of those LEDs, so I know everything works together, and I don't need to research and guess the next time a dimmer goes bad, or I run out of old bulbs.

 

[TheWizard]

Many of my light switches, dimmer and otherwise, are smart Wi-Fi devices. Did you forget that?

 

[ERD50]

I'll add that that dimmer is interesting. Others I've used include a screwdriver adjustment to set the minimum brightness for dimming - this ensures that the lights don't go completely off at the lowest setting, or to match your desired low level.

This one is 'programmable' - easier done than said, but w/o the instruction you wouldn't get it. With the rocker paddle removed, set the slider to MIN, turn on and hold on (with the rocker/paddle removed, you need to hold the on/off switch ON), and with another hidden switch at POS A, then turn to POS B, adjust the MIN brightness you want. Then flip that little switch to POS A, and the light flashes to tell you it just programmed that level. Repeat for max setting. Not too hard, but not obvious at all. I need to keep those directions and get a copy on my computer.

 

[ERD50]

Many of my light switches, dimmer and otherwise, are smart Wi-Fi devices. Did you forget that?

I don't want any added complexity! I want simple.

 

[sdtech]

I added a motion detector switch to our unfinished basement lso when you walk downstairs lights come on. Whoever put in the 4 lights did it in series and then put a cheap two conductor line to the wall switch. Of course the new switch requires a ground. Ran a new romex from the light to the switch and connected the ground. All work after fighting off the dark with a flashlight.

 

[calmloki]

I don't want any added complexity! I want simple.

Thanks for the smile of the day!

 

[OldShooter]

The worn-out switch probably means that these lights get used quite a bit. Why not stop worrying about wattage and convert the lights to LED? Payback may be fast.

 

[ERD50]

The worn-out switch probably means that these lights get used quite a bit. Why not stop worrying about wattage and convert the lights to LED? Payback may be fast.

I did that. I know that post was kinda long, so here's the relevant part:

I also decided to get some LEDs for this dimmer circuit, so I could repurpose the old filament bulbs on the other circuits for any bulbs that burn out (you can't get them anymore, and the other installed dimmers aren't LED compatible). That sort of negates the need for +455W filament for the dimmer, but just in case old bulbs got put in there.

But I doubt there's any payback to the LEDs (and I don't really care, it would be peanuts). They are used a lot, but mostly we are in/out, they aren't on for long. The main motivation for going LED was I won't be able to buy old style replacements. I'll use the old bulbs on the other dimmers that aren't LED compatible, so I don't need to swap those dimmers out, unless they fail.

 

[ERD50]

Also a small positive to add: the old dimmer had wires attached, and needed a wire-nut on each. This new one has those nice brass clamps that you just insert a straight wire into, and tighten the screw to secure it. No bending the wire into a loop around a screw head, and trying to keep it from sliding out from under the screw. Those clamp downs are the best! Easy, and feel very secure.

 

[TheWizard]

I don't want any added complexity! I want simple.

But, but, we're in the 21st century now!

 

[ERD50]

But, but, we're in the 21st century now!

And sometimes, a light bulb should just be a light bulb!

 

[Koolau]

And sometimes, a light bulb should just be a light bulb!

Now you're talkin'.

 

[MichaelB]

Why do some LED bulbs flicker? Is there no option other than swapping out the switch or changing the bulbs?

 

[ERD50]

Why do some LED bulbs flicker? Is there no option other than swapping out the switch or changing the bulbs?

Generally yes, replace one or the other, and hope you get a good match. That compatibility chart that was online with my Leviton brand dimmer should help.

Two other options - if there are multiple 'bulbs' on the circuit, replace one of them with a filament bulb (you probably need to find a 'rough service' or specialty bulb). Often, the added 'regular' (non-reactive) resistance of a filament will damp out some of the problems that cause flickering. Even a low watt bulb (night light) might do the trick.

If that isn't feasible, they make resistors that you can wire into a fixture, that do the same thing as the filament bulb above would do. But you get no light from them, and hopefully they don't create enough heat to cause a problem. They just waste electricity, somewhat defeating the purpose of LEDs.

Here's an example:

https://www.amazon.com/Aeotec-AEZW150-Bypass-Z-Wave-Dimmer/dp/B017BK1MIA

There should have been some real standards for this, before the government set the efficiency mandates.

 

[MichaelB]

Thanks for the detailed response, ERD. A follow-up, if you don’t mind. The compatibility chart is most helpful when one is buying a new dimmer switch. When one is already installed and the model is not known, is there any better / easier option than swapping out bulbs, which is a hit or miss approach?

Edit - and your point on standards before regulations makes sense.

 

[ERD50]

It's going to be hit-or-miss. Might have better luck with the highly rated bulbs on that chart - hopefully, the qualities that make them work well with that dimmer will tend to carry-over to other dimmers, but no guarantee.

The bottom line is that the old filament bulbs provide a very simple/stable/predictable load to a dimmer (non-reactive, Power Factor near 1.0 in tech terms). LEDs have relatively complex switching circuits in them to convert the 120/60Hz signal to DC to drive the LEDs, and those switching circuit designs vary, and provide a much more complex load to the dimmer.

 

[sengsational]

if there are multiple 'bulbs' on the circuit, replace one of them with a filament bulb (you probably need to find a 'rough service' or specialty bulb). Often, the added 'regular' (non-reactive) resistance of a filament will damp out some of the problems that cause flickering. Even a low watt bulb (night light) might do the trick.

I discovered this by accident when doing the LED's on a dimmer thing.

 

[GaryInCO]

You beat me to it with the "put a filament bulb on the circuit" suggestion. Unless a dimmer is designed for low-load use like LEDs, it won't work properly with a LED-only circuit. I forget the exact mechanics but it needs more current to work properly, more than the LEDs draw. Replace a LED light with a filament bulb and the dimmer should be happy.

The bottom line is that the old filament bulbs provide a very simple/stable/predictable load to a dimmer (non-reactive, Power Factor near 1.0 in tech terms). LEDs have relatively complex switching circuits in them to convert the 120/60Hz signal to DC to drive the LEDs, and those switching circuit designs vary, and provide a much more complex load to the dimmer.

I always wondered why LEDs "turn off slowly." Incandescents do, because it takes time for the filament to cool and stop glowing. But the LED should turn off instantly, right? Well the LED itself can, but I hadn't thought about the AC-to-DC conversion circuit that each LED light needs. That power supply has some capacitors, and those take a while to bleed off their charge. That's why the LED doesn't turn off instantly.

Another geeky tidbit: generally the LEDs in your "warm white" or "cool white" bulbs don't actually produce that color. The LEDs produce blue or UV light, which then excites a phosphor (like on old CRT TVs) to produce the desired light. Nifty, eh wot?

 

[KarenF]

We had a Control4 system in the last house and did DIY in our new
House. We have mostly Cync bulbs and control them with Alexa. e.g. Alexa, turn kitchen lights to 100%, 50%, etc. With Cync you can change the bulb color to any color you want (fun with the grandkids) and also anything from bright white to candlelight. We don’t have any dimmer switches at all.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I was in Africa a few years back. The lights on his porch were too bright. One of his staff solved it. He unplugged every other bulb.

 

[Koolau]

I was in Africa a few years back. The lights on his porch were too bright. One of his staff solved it. He unplugged every other bulb.

Sometimes, low-tech is still the best solution. I love the story.

 

[Souschef]

Since we are on the subject of LED's, I had a strange thing happen. We moved into a new apartment where all lights were LED's, It also came with a garage.
I was given an opener for the car, and while it would raise the door, it would not close it. The bulbs in the opener were also LEDs.
I had maintenance unscrew the bulbs, and it worked. Apparently the electronics in the LED jammed the garage door receiver.
I got a ladder and looked at the opener, and there was a little sticker that said,"Do not use LED's".

 

[ERD50]

Sometimes, low-tech is still the best solution. I love the story.

I did this shortly after we moved in to our current home. The fixture above the dining room table has 9(!) bulbs. Way too bright, I ended up unscrewing 3 of the bulbs - better.

A little weird to see some out, but it's on a '3-way' circuit (two switches, one at each end of the room), and I'm not crazy about those dimmers with a control on one side only (I know, there are high tech solutions to this now), so this works well enough for us.

Since we are on the subject of LED's, I had a strange thing happen. We moved into a new apartment where all lights were LED's, It also came with a garage.
I was given an opener for the car, and while it would raise the door, it would not close it. The bulbs in the opener were also LEDs.
I had maintenance unscrew the bulbs, and it worked. Apparently the electronics in the LED jammed the garage door receiver.
I got a ladder and looked at the opener, and there was a little sticker that said,"Do not use LED's".

Yep, the LED/garage opener phenomenon has been discussed here before. I sure wish that MIT could have followed up on their high(er) efficiency filament bulb. It used a special glass that was highly reflective to IR (the light you can't see, which is heat). With all that heat reflected back to the filament to keep it white hot, it took much less current for the same light output. But, it didn't look like they would be quite as efficient as LEDs and couldn't quite pass the new regulations, so no one wanted to invest $$$ into development.

It's a shame, being much better would probably be good enough in most cases, and it's hard to beat the simplicity of a wire. No electronics to mess with other devices, easy, predictable, reliable dimming, and that nice warm glow as you dim them (I miss that on LEDs).

 

[Koolau]

Since we are on the subject of LED's, I had a strange thing happen. We moved into a new apartment where all lights were LED's, It also came with a garage.
I was given an opener for the car, and while it would raise the door, it would not close it. The bulbs in the opener were also LEDs.
I had maintenance unscrew the bulbs, and it worked. Apparently the electronics in the LED jammed the garage door receiver.
I got a ladder and looked at the opener, and there was a little sticker that said,"Do not use LED's".

Heh, heh, what was that old saying? "When all else fails, follow the instructions." I wonder what the owner who rented to you thought you'd do when the garage door wouldn't close. Glad you figured it out.

 

[tizod]

Fun thread! One thing I would add, it you might call the utility co. you have and ask for rebate or whatever to change all this to LED. You seem to have enough that they might do that. I did this before when changing out my whole basement, and I got a 50% rebate - but that was a few years back when it was in vogue and pushing LED's. Funny, but I also had to replace many of the "lifetime" LED's. The electronics burn out. What good is an emitter when they don't build the electronics to match it!!!