How to argue with unreasonable people about money and finances where there really are black and white, right and wrong ways of doing things….

[dmpi]

In case number #1. I think there's a chance that your relative have lied about their age. This is more common than you think, especially for immigrants who come to America wanting to look younger because there's more jobs available.

With regards to #2, Is the apartment subsides low-income housing? If he gives up the apartment he might not qualify to ever get it back if he needs it. This might more be about keeping ones options open if your future is uncertain.

 

[athena53]

A recent discussion at the senior center was about investing in gold and what I will call assorted non US currencies. Their claim is that the US dollar is pure fiat money, just paper, with nothing to back it up. But, apparently these other forms of currency are backed up by something. Nobody could tell me what form of backing they had much less why it was superior , but they seem to think it must be better than US currency from the most productive economy in the world. OK, whatever. Good luck.

Good old FOMO. "It just keeps going up so this is the time to jump in."

I've never bought gold as an investment but I own a LOT of gold jewelry bought over decades, so some could be sold for more than I paid- but every time I sell odds and ends (mismatched earrings, things I no longer wear with no sentimental value) the price jumps up again. At this point I've actually backed off buying gold jewelry- the prices are getting crazy.

 

[MarieIG]

Under the circumstances, I think the most you could do is give gentle advise - and then back off.

An exception is - someone who is on your "personal payroll" and is wasting your money.

 

[SnowballCamper]

Dan Kahan at Yale studied a version of this. I got to see one of his academic talks in person. The BLUF is that many (maybe most) people are more motivated by their social group beliefs than they are by facts. As a result, very smart people can utilize their reasoning ability to dismiss data/facts that don't support their social identity (and associated beliefs). Of course this doesn't really apply to plain old stupidity. The world is full of stupid people, I just try not to be one of them.

Are Smart People Ruining Democracy?

Is political polarization over the reality of climate change, the efficacy of gun control, the safety of nuclear power, and other policy-relevant facts attributable to a simple deficit in public science literacy? Dan Kahan reviews study results showing that polarization on complex factual issues...

www.ted.com

 

[pb4uski]

So many of my friends have one or two storage buildings full of junk they pay monthly fees on. Why?

We DD started dating DSIL, about a year earlier he had moved out of an apartment back into his parents house and had a small storage unit. The first time that they visited it DD assessed that all the junque in it could be replaced for about a year's rental of the storage unit. He decided that he didn't really need the storage unit.

Common problem though.

 

[RetMD21]

Interesting Ted talk. Most people are not very curious or open to other perspectives

 

[rk911]

So many of my friends have one or two storage buildings full of junk they pay monthly fees on. Why?

Friends older than me (almost 80) who live in a 2 story house with bedrooms and full baths upstairs, they have difficulty climbing stairs. They refuse to consider moving to a one level home (or better yet a CCRC). They have plenty of money.

Older friends who have no plans for aging, when I ask them if they have any plans they say their children will take care of them. But their children live across the country and I don't think they even had POAs etc.

I just shake my head.

I understand the desire to stay in your home rather than share walls with strangers. We're putting in two stairlifts to help us stay here longer. A move to a CCRC is likely inevitable but we're gonna fight that move as long as possible.

 

[mystang52]

Years ago I thought I was doing a good deed by offering unheeded, very basic, financial advice to my staff, especially the younger ones. It always fell on deaf ears. I learned not to give unsolicited advice. But I also learned that when someone did ask for advice, odds were pretty darned good that the advice would be ignored anyway. And this applies to non-financial issues as well.

 

[MRG]

Many years ago DW had a pot bellied pig, Daisy Mae. Cute little pig, housebroken, she'd go to the door and push it making pig noises. Once on the front porch she'd walk down a 2"x12" ramp down rather than three steps.

One day it was raining and Daisy's little hooves lost traction and she fell off the pig ramp into a rose bush. Oh the noise!

After that Daisy would refuse to go on that ramp and she'd squeal like she had just fallen off again.

I'd rather try convincing a pig of something they didn't want to do than dealing with folks who think they know what they're doing.

 

[Gumby]

Interesting Ted talk. Most people are not very curious or open to other perspectives

One of the hardest things to do is ask yourself the question "Could I be wrong?" But it may be the most necessary to true understanding.

 

[Midpack]

Why would you argue with someone who you know is unreasonable?

Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference...

 

[Texas Proud]

A lot of nice posts...

BUT, one thing is that you make a fatal flaw... that the is only ONE way to make that decision....

As others have pointed out, there are many... and just because someone chooses something that you would never do does not make it a 'wrong' decision...

I will give an example... I did taxes back in the 80s... there was a guy who had over $1 million that could be refunded to him on his tax return... he always chose to roll it to the next year... black and white decision right that he was making wrong... right?

Well, I asked him why (remember, interest rates were a lot higher then) and he said "I have always done this and have never been audited by the IRS"... his return was complex and he made good money... but he saw the two as connected so he never did ask for his money...

 

[Amethyst]

It's not just finances, politics is the other hot button where people refuse to either do the necessary research for success or bury their head in the sand when facts do not align to how they think things are.
It's like they equate finances with religion; they are convinced they are right but refuse to examine any aspect beyond their conviction. They twist the facts to rationalize their opinions.
In all those cases, I find people view me as ignorant or even stupid until they are aware of my success. Then it's just dumb luck, coincidence, certainly not of MY doing, which makes them angry or envious, neither of which is condusive to a healthy relationship.
I've learned how to just smile and wave as I slowly move away....

LIve and let live.

 

[Amethyst]

Good old FOMO. "It just keeps going up so this is the time to jump in."

I've never bought gold as an investment but I own a LOT of gold jewelry bought over decades, so some could be sold for more than I paid- but every time I sell odds and ends (mismatched earrings, things I no longer wear with no sentimental value) the price jumps up again. At this point I've actually backed off buying gold jewelry- the prices are getting crazy.

Even jewelry from the 90s was typically sold at such a huge mark-up, it's not as great a sale as one might expect. I just wish I had more venues to wear mine. Every piece has memories and emotions attached to it. But lapel brooches don't go so well with athleisure and T shirts, which is all anybody wears round these parts.

 

[Crewer]

I have a friend who has turned her CC debt over to a 3rd party (2nd time) and is paying on that until late 2027. When she bought a house she had some things done and took out two 401k loans and will pay on those until later this year. A year and a half+ ago she came to me because she could not figure out how to pay her monthly bills when she gets paid every 2 weeks. I had her make a budget and check against income, though dog expenses never really made it into the budget (too lumpy for her to deal with or she just doesn't want to know). I pointed out she can't really afford her dog and asked if she thought of getting a roommate since she has a 3 bedroom home. Poo-pooed by her.

There's a great book for about paying bills on one time frame when you get paid on another and I gave her the strategy. It included making partial payments of some of the bills in advance when she gets paid before she blows the money. But the twice-a-year dog meds and grooming still throw her. At least she no longer has a CC but she works for Walmart (FT with benefits fortunately) and the temptation is great. Property tax increased etc and I knew she was on the ragged edge so later I offered to give her the equivalent of the 401k loan payment until mid 2026 to tide her over. I pay her monthly and will for several more months.

But...Walmart gave employees Walmart+ and sends alert of deals so now she has a fancy cat litter thing with a drum, paying off monthly for a year. Yeah, I'm fed up. I'm sure she does not have an emergency fund. The worst is that she still talks about buying a new car in 2028 when her Kia hits 10 years and loses the manufacturer's warranty even though it will only have less than 50k miles. That subject has come up periodically for several years and my kids and I have all told her don't buy new, your car will last another 10 years at the rate you drive if you take care of it. We even asked if she's priced buying a new warranty vs buying a car. I committed to the 401k thing but after that she's on her own. DD thinks she just grew up thinking carrying all that debt is a way of life.

 

[skipro33]

Dan Kahan at Yale studied a version of this. I got to see one of his academic talks in person. The BLUF is that many (maybe most) people are more motivated by their social group beliefs than they are by facts. As a result, very smart people can utilize their reasoning ability to dismiss data/facts that don't support their social identity (and associated beliefs). Of course this doesn't really apply to plain old stupidity. The world is full of stupid people, I just try not to be one of them.

Are Smart People Ruining Democracy?

Is political polarization over the reality of climate change, the efficacy of gun control, the safety of nuclear power, and other policy-relevant facts attributable to a simple deficit in public science literacy? Dan Kahan reviews study results showing that polarization on complex factual issues...

www.ted.com

I've taken training classes on this dealing with safety. In my case, this was for pre-launch checks on rockets for the Air Force, weather rocketsondes. Intelligent men in a room become convinced, through the linguistics of phrasing, that everyone is agreeing that an action is not necessary or that it doesn't apply. Whatever. The results a failure or worse the spent casing, which is designed to jettison the fins, doesn't and the casing falls back to earth like an arrow, instead of tumbling into the drop zone. It's very difficult to think like a machine, which is why documentation is so critical. The training earned me a job with quality control at a biomedical company and later with a nuclear power company. The stress of dealing with people eventually got me out of that and into working with the hardware. Hardware doesn't need to be convinced of the direction to head and if it did, I could take a hammer to it and not get fired. Ha!

 

[Calico]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people firmly believe they have a monopoly on the "right" and "wrong" way to do things, and not only that, but they thrive on pointing out the error of everyone else's ways to the people in their lives.

I find that just tending to my own life and decisions is a full-time job. If I keep myself on the right track I consider my work is done. I don't have the energy, time, or interest to lecture anyone else on how to do things, or to point out everything they are doing "wrong" in their lives.

 

[Dtail]

I wouldn't be wasting my time. Some folks just don't get it. At least as important is to not be worried about it.

 

[TheWizard]

...DD thinks she just grew up thinking carrying all that debt is a way of life.

It certainly is for some people...

 

[freedomatlast]

Why get involved with other people's financial business, if they haven't asked for your opinion? Seems like a great way to alienate friends and family. I can understand offering advice once, but then let it go and don't argue about it.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Ex-husband number three and I have stayed friendly and he occasionally calls me to ask for advice. Last year when the Social Security fairness act passed, I called him to let him know about it because I know he never watches the news.

He’s five years younger than me and last year he was 66. I know he had been waiting until he was full retirement age to draw so he could get the most since he was affected by WEP as was I. I let him know that he was no longer affected by it and that he should immediately apply for Social Security and request survivor benefits since his first wife was dead and she was an extremely high earner her entire life.

I explained to him why it didn’t make sense anymore to wait to his full retirement age. I told him that I was already drawing off of another ex-husband who was the highest earner between them.

Fast forward six months and he called to ask me something and I asked him if he had applied for the Social Security. He then repeated that he was waiting until his full retirement age to get the highest amount. I again explained to him that he’s just losing money and that he’s never going to get more on his own than he will get drawing under his first ex-wife.

The thing that makes this really interesting is that in our later years of marriage he loved to tell me how much smarter he was than me because his IQ was so much higher. I was the one that handled all our finances, etc., because left to his own devices, he would have paid bills late.

Fast forward 6 months and he calls me recently to ask about something non-finance related and I couldn’t help but think about the money he was losing from Social Security. However, I decided I wasn’t going to ask him anymore if he claimed SS because I just didn’t want to know.

It would make a huge different in his life because he’s living off just a small pension from the state like I was. He’s also bad with money and my stepson told me that he has managed to spend all the money that he walked away with from the divorce, which was a lot.

 

[jollystomper]

In whatever time I have left, I choose to focus on contentment and joy. That does not include looking at other folks financial situation, unless I am asked to. And even then, experience has shown that they take any of the advice or guidance provided less than 20% of the time. In sum, not my circus, not my monkeys .

 

[Gumby]

Ex-husband number three and I have stayed friendly and he occasionally calls me to ask for advice. Last year when the Social Security fairness act passed, I called him to let him know about it because I know he never watches the news.

He’s five years younger than me and last year he was 66. I know he had been waiting until he was full retirement age to draw so he could get the most since he was affected by WEP as was I. I let him know that he was no longer affected by it and that he should immediately apply for Social Security and request survivor benefits since his first wife was dead and she was an extremely high earner her entire life.

I explained to him why it didn’t make sense anymore to wait to his full retirement age. I told him that I was already drawing off of another ex-husband who was the highest earner between them.

Fast forward six months and he called to ask me something and I asked him if he had applied for the Social Security. He then repeated that he was waiting until his full retirement age to get the highest amount. I again explained to him that he’s just losing money and that he’s never going to get more on his own than he will get drawing under his first ex-wife.

The thing that makes this really interesting is that in our later years of marriage he loved to tell me how much smarter he was than me because his IQ was so much higher. I was the one that handled all our finances, etc., because left to his own devices, he would have paid bills late.

Fast forward 6 months and he calls me recently to ask about something non-finance related and I couldn’t help but think about the money he was losing from Social Security. However, I decided I wasn’t going to ask him anymore if he claimed SS because I just didn’t want to know.

It would make a huge different in his life because he’s living off just a small pension from the state like I was. He’s also bad with money and my stepson told me that he has managed to spend all the money that he walked away with from the divorce, which was a lot.

You are a good egg, Terry.

 

[brett]

Why on earth argue with an unreasonable person? Seems like a lose lose to me.

 

[CO-guy]

Couple of recent examples come to mind

1 relative who resisted for 2 years filing for Social Security after age 70 because….. well no excuse that made sense. Not wanting to get on the Gov’t radar, was lacking info he thought they would need but didn’t etc etc Still 2 years of benefits lost. $40k pissed away. Now busy patting himself on the back when the check comes in. Meanwhile we and his FA talked until blue in the face…

2 friend with an apartment full of stuff but he is retired and lives in another country. Pays carrying costs and taxes on the apartment but earns no income. All old papers and things from his working life that no one wants but only he thinks are very valuable. He hasn’t looked at them in a few years now. Yet can’t let go! I am inclined to hit him with a shovel! He loves to complain about his finances but refuses to even address the low hanging fruit. How to make people who are afraid of change, change or afraid of doing what they have argued against for so long but now realize they are wrong but embarrassed to face it?

Seems I am seeing more and more of this as the people around me age. Or is it me getting less and less tolerant as I age?

For the past year I've been sharing updates about a family member making some poor financial decisions that have created upheaval in his personal life (divorce, custody issues, etc.).

When he tells me about things, I listen. When he asks for advice, I offer it. That's it. In the title of my own topic on this subject it says, "Just sharing / not asking for advice," because there's no point in arguing with him about what he does with his own life.