jazz4cash
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Reminds me of someone I know. Takes credit for something that they scoffed at when it was initially suggested to them.
How to argue with unreasonable people about money and finances where there really are black and white, right and wrong ways of doing things….
- Thread starter Retired Expat
- Start date
This is a bit of a fun thread.
Regarding the rental unit -- I agree that they are a waste of money. Just let go of the stuff. However, there are scenarios where the money is well spent -- and it's not about the contents, but is about family peace. Assume there are two people in a marriage, and one just can not let go of the contents, for sentimental or other reasons. The other wants to declutter the house, but also live in a peaceful marriage. The $150/month rental fee accomplishes that. Rather than protracted and ongoing arguments on what to get rid of -- or worse, ongoing bitterment and a strained marriage if one spouse discards items of sentimental artifiacts -- the rental unit fees are a bargain.
In general, I agree that one may offer advise, if asked, and sometimes if not if it is a family member. But then one lets it go. This can be difficult with immediate family members. Case in point -- an immeidate family member built her house in '83. While her husband was alive, it was well maintained. But her husband died in 2000. She was 60. Since then she has embraced her ideas of what a house should be -- neglected basic maintenance (roof, gutters, etc.) and instead allowed vines and plants to grown all over many sides of it. She spent dollars on expensive decks and unnecessary furnishing (she has three ranges in the house for instance: an AGA range, another full range, and a built in range in the counter top). She also decided that she needed to go on trips to Europe and South Amerca in those first 10 years after her husband died. And she did.
Well, the roof and gutters are in terrible shape. The gutters have completely fallen off. Ten years ago or more I was in the attic during the rainy season, and saw water coming in. I let her know she really needed to prioritize a new roof, it has a leak. But the advise fell on deaf ears -- she added the AGA after that conversation, went on more vacations, repainted a barn on the property last summer , and was talking out how to put a new roof on the barn -- which is rusty, but is not leaking.
Over the holidays, she asked who did our roof. Turns out she received a notice from the insurcance company that if she does not clear the vegetation and put on a new roof, they are cancelling her policy. I just listened, and mentioned that it was the original roof from 1983. She expressed dismay about replacing a roof that was not yet leaking ( I kept my tongue, did not say 'I told you 10 years ago it was leaking'). I expect the cost to get the house fixed will be north of $75,000, which she does not now have. Options are to let the insurance lapse, or to get a loan on the house (which she will not do), or have family members help finance the repairs.
She is a lovely 85 year old lady, and is happy in her falling down house. So I just let it go. Whoever inherits the house eventullay will have to spend a lot to get it back in shape, but it'll still be less expensive than buying new. So that is what will happen.
We visit her every week, and enjoy our visits, and overlook the state of the house. Turns out her teacup poodle passed this last fall (it was quite old). She is getting anohter one for $2K dollars, and has been invited to spend a few weeks in Hawaii with friends she has over there. So she is considering doing that again.
These things make an old woman happy, more than a new roof and gutters. C'est la vie.
Regarding the rental unit -- I agree that they are a waste of money. Just let go of the stuff. However, there are scenarios where the money is well spent -- and it's not about the contents, but is about family peace. Assume there are two people in a marriage, and one just can not let go of the contents, for sentimental or other reasons. The other wants to declutter the house, but also live in a peaceful marriage. The $150/month rental fee accomplishes that. Rather than protracted and ongoing arguments on what to get rid of -- or worse, ongoing bitterment and a strained marriage if one spouse discards items of sentimental artifiacts -- the rental unit fees are a bargain.
In general, I agree that one may offer advise, if asked, and sometimes if not if it is a family member. But then one lets it go. This can be difficult with immediate family members. Case in point -- an immeidate family member built her house in '83. While her husband was alive, it was well maintained. But her husband died in 2000. She was 60. Since then she has embraced her ideas of what a house should be -- neglected basic maintenance (roof, gutters, etc.) and instead allowed vines and plants to grown all over many sides of it. She spent dollars on expensive decks and unnecessary furnishing (she has three ranges in the house for instance: an AGA range, another full range, and a built in range in the counter top). She also decided that she needed to go on trips to Europe and South Amerca in those first 10 years after her husband died. And she did.
Well, the roof and gutters are in terrible shape. The gutters have completely fallen off. Ten years ago or more I was in the attic during the rainy season, and saw water coming in. I let her know she really needed to prioritize a new roof, it has a leak. But the advise fell on deaf ears -- she added the AGA after that conversation, went on more vacations, repainted a barn on the property last summer , and was talking out how to put a new roof on the barn -- which is rusty, but is not leaking.
Over the holidays, she asked who did our roof. Turns out she received a notice from the insurcance company that if she does not clear the vegetation and put on a new roof, they are cancelling her policy. I just listened, and mentioned that it was the original roof from 1983. She expressed dismay about replacing a roof that was not yet leaking ( I kept my tongue, did not say 'I told you 10 years ago it was leaking'). I expect the cost to get the house fixed will be north of $75,000, which she does not now have. Options are to let the insurance lapse, or to get a loan on the house (which she will not do), or have family members help finance the repairs.
She is a lovely 85 year old lady, and is happy in her falling down house. So I just let it go. Whoever inherits the house eventullay will have to spend a lot to get it back in shape, but it'll still be less expensive than buying new. So that is what will happen.
We visit her every week, and enjoy our visits, and overlook the state of the house. Turns out her teacup poodle passed this last fall (it was quite old). She is getting anohter one for $2K dollars, and has been invited to spend a few weeks in Hawaii with friends she has over there. So she is considering doing that again.
These things make an old woman happy, more than a new roof and gutters. C'est la vie.
Teacher Terry
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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I have known so many people to rent storage units and I find them such a waste of money. When I downsize to my condo that was 855 ft.² that only had three regular size closets and one tiny one I was determined to fit in it. My youngest son was living with me and he got half of one of those closets. Yes, since moved to Vietnam, and he still has half of one of my closets
).
It was difficult to envision what would fit in there and ultimately I took too much furniture and too many pictures/knickknacks. I immediately put the extra furniture on Facebook marketplace for free and took the extra pictures and knickknacks to the thrift store. Normally, I would’ve sold things, but in a small space it’s too difficult to walk around extra pieces of furniture.
). It was difficult to envision what would fit in there and ultimately I took too much furniture and too many pictures/knickknacks. I immediately put the extra furniture on Facebook marketplace for free and took the extra pictures and knickknacks to the thrift store. Normally, I would’ve sold things, but in a small space it’s too difficult to walk around extra pieces of furniture.
isisdave
Recycles dryer sheets
This is a fun thread. Reading all three pages at once reminded me that it illustrates most of the Big Life Lessons taught to me by 76 years on the planet, the last half with a spouse who's a mental health professional. I don't claim to be particularly quick, as these did take a while to sink in.
1. People [will] do what they want to do. Including yourself.
2. Often people telling you about a problem aren't necessarily asking for a suggestion, just to be heard. [This is a big principle in the Venus/Mars relationship; we often ask each other "Are you hiring a consultant, or just venting?"]
3. You've heard this one: Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig
and the most important one, which has less bearing on this particular topic:
4. Ask for what you want
Another minor one, since I'm already on the soapbox: Generalizations are not very helpful, including this one.
1. People [will] do what they want to do. Including yourself.
2. Often people telling you about a problem aren't necessarily asking for a suggestion, just to be heard. [This is a big principle in the Venus/Mars relationship; we often ask each other "Are you hiring a consultant, or just venting?"]
3. You've heard this one: Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig
and the most important one, which has less bearing on this particular topic:
4. Ask for what you want
Another minor one, since I'm already on the soapbox: Generalizations are not very helpful, including this one.
Ronstar
Moderator Emeritus
I made up my mind recently to never offer information or give advice to anyone unless they ask for it. The one exception is if failing to help will cause me consternation in the future.
Life is too short to waste time trying to help those who won't listen.
Life is too short to waste time trying to help those who won't listen.
planuntilthefisthits
Recycles dryer sheets
I have friends who own a therapy business. The amount of poor decisions they have made just boggles my mind:
1. Purchased a unit in a mixed-used (residential and commercial) condo in order to see their clientele. Got complaints from other owners about their clientele, so purchased another unit in another condo where they would see their clientele. Kept original unit to do their paperwork!
2. Stopped seeing clientele in person since Covid, but kept Condo 2 for 5 years despite not using it. Finally sold it at fire-sale prices because of the glut of office space as everyone is work-from-home.
3. Until recently, had a full-time secretary/assistant doing their billing and scheduling, things that could be largely automated or outsourced for a fraction of the cost.
I never argued with them, but tried encouraging them to change. Sad, because they could have retired many years ago had they a modicum of business sense.
1. Purchased a unit in a mixed-used (residential and commercial) condo in order to see their clientele. Got complaints from other owners about their clientele, so purchased another unit in another condo where they would see their clientele. Kept original unit to do their paperwork!
2. Stopped seeing clientele in person since Covid, but kept Condo 2 for 5 years despite not using it. Finally sold it at fire-sale prices because of the glut of office space as everyone is work-from-home.
3. Until recently, had a full-time secretary/assistant doing their billing and scheduling, things that could be largely automated or outsourced for a fraction of the cost.
I never argued with them, but tried encouraging them to change. Sad, because they could have retired many years ago had they a modicum of business sense.
Related, but maybe indirectly. My DSister calls me all the time to catch up and uses me as her sounding board. Often in our conversations I'll give her info she gets excited about. Yesterday, she was sad/angry that her nephew who got fired, moved back home and is being a bum. We were brainstorming jobs he might like. He wants to be in "marketing" and work from home so I explained the people on YouTube can make big money and told her about Doug Demuro, his "quirks and features" angle and now Cars and Bids. She is all excited, and wants to look him up and watch his videos. I hang up the phone and say to my DW, "She's never gonna do that, is she?". We both shake our head. Nope.
I was telling here about the book "Outlive", and again very excited and she was going to order it as soon as she got off the phone. No, she won't.
On and on, this is the pattern. I don't understand it, I can't control it, but it's pretty harmless so I just let it go.
I was telling here about the book "Outlive", and again very excited and she was going to order it as soon as she got off the phone. No, she won't.
On and on, this is the pattern. I don't understand it, I can't control it, but it's pretty harmless so I just let it go.
JoeWras
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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Is the pig OK?
bada bing
Full time employment: Posting here.
I try to follow the adage "Not my circus, not my monkeys". But occasionally I butt in. A recent one was trying to inform my niece and her husband how their mortgage PMI requirement was no longer required because of a few years of payments and appreciation. That was 6 months ago, no effort yet. Oh well.
The reason I'm aware of the mechanics of their mortgage was their $20K down payment was a gift from me and I had to fill out paperwork disclaiming any ties to the money.
The reason I'm aware of the mechanics of their mortgage was their $20K down payment was a gift from me and I had to fill out paperwork disclaiming any ties to the money.
robnplunder
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Life is too short to worry about things you can't control.
I've come to the same conclusion, having met so many people (including the ex wife) who just cannot seem to fathom the idea, let alone the advantages, of life without debt. Including the sister-in-law who traded in the almost-paid-for car on a new one because the old car needed a $250 brake job and the payments for the new one were "only $15 more" per month.
There's just no fixing that kind of stupid.
I think the Google AI response to {freakonomics why don't people make good decisions} is helpful. It reinforces the viewpoint that one can only share one's own experience. Subsequently expecting reason per se to drive the advisee's decision-making is a mistake.
ncbill
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Helping a close relative finally get rid of their old apartment, currently serving as a storage unit.
They moved into a fully-furnished home inherited from a parent years ago.
I finally got them to agree to retain only personal items (e.g. no furniture) from the apartment.
Once I finish boxing up the personal items at the apartment I'll have them moved & get rid of everything else.
They moved into a fully-furnished home inherited from a parent years ago.
I finally got them to agree to retain only personal items (e.g. no furniture) from the apartment.
Once I finish boxing up the personal items at the apartment I'll have them moved & get rid of everything else.
Music Lover
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
One of my friends had a paid off 8-year old Toyota RAV with 130 kms (80k miles) on it. It was burning oil so he took it to the dealer and found out that it had a hidden warranty. They gave him a brand new engine at zero cost to him.I've come to the same conclusion, having met so many people (including the ex wife) who just cannot seem to fathom the idea, let alone the advantages, of life without debt. Including the sister-in-law who traded in the almost-paid-for car on a new one because the old car needed a $250 brake job and the payments for the new one were "only $15 more" per month.
There's just no fixing that kind of stupid.
I congratulated him saying, "Isn't that great...you got a brand new Toyota engine for free".
6 months late he sold it because "it was tainted" and then proceeded to lease a Jaguar E-pace for about $450 a month (after a very substantial down payment).
ShokWaveRider
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
OP check out my Sig.
Chuckanut
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I recall some words of wisdom:
“From great doubt, comes great understanding.”
Then there is always the Dunning-Kruger effect where the most ignorant people overestimate their cognitive ability. I bet that most of us have seen that in action.
I had an elderly relative who lived alone in a two bedroom apartment. The 2nd bedroom was loaded with unusable stuff and boxes of records such as years worth of utility bills, old magazines nobody ever read, and broken junk that she insisted would be worth good money when fixed. Way back then, it probably cost her an extra 70 to 100 dollars a month for that extra bedroom. Her income was social security and the interest from $100,000 in a bank CD. IOW, not a lot.
Yup. All I need to do is turn on the news.
PristineSound
Recycles dryer sheets
Gosh, he could of given me that 2 years of social security as I will likely suffer from SS cuts when by the time I retire.
My rule in life is always try my best to not leave any money on the table. If the money was on the table it was meant for the taking.
My rule in life is always try my best to not leave any money on the table. If the money was on the table it was meant for the taking.
bada bing
Full time employment: Posting here.
Hopefully he knew or was informed he could file 6 months retroactively when he finally did file ? That would be icing on the cake to finally file and just file for the current date.
reneeh63
Recycles dryer sheets
People aren't 100% logical. Even the most logical engineer on this forum will have at least one thing that goes completely against any rational argument. Now, most people will have a lot more than that!
You've gotta detach from such things, if not the person then at least that as a topic of conversation. You can lead a horse to water...but sometimes you really shouldn't even try to do that!
You've gotta detach from such things, if not the person then at least that as a topic of conversation. You can lead a horse to water...but sometimes you really shouldn't even try to do that!
I wonder if parenting techniques could be adapted to use for friends and relatives a person wants to help. I remember that you have to give kids choices to avoid them resisting due to not wanting to give up their own agency. And also to express genuine sympathy for them suffering the effects of their mess-ups which somehow makes them more willing to learn from their mistakes.
Route246
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
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I think, act and was trained to optimize everything that has to do with numbers, finances, consequences, etc. Some people don't think that way. They feel it is a waste of their time. I'm OK with that. I never offer advice unless asked because most people don't want to hear what I tell them because they feel it is a bother or too much hassle to implement.
If the topic of finances comes up I just suggest to pay attention to expense ratios and avoid AUM. If the hook is set and they seem interested then I send them a link to the Boglehead Wiki and ask me anything about anything they don't understand in it. If not interested, I move on.
If the topic of finances comes up I just suggest to pay attention to expense ratios and avoid AUM. If the hook is set and they seem interested then I send them a link to the Boglehead Wiki and ask me anything about anything they don't understand in it. If not interested, I move on.
DrRoy
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
In the 80’s, the Megacorp I worked for granted all employees a 100 share option of co. stock. There were a fair number of employees that were convinced the company was trying to screw them in some way.
Amethyst
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People behave this way when they don't understand what you're saying - or it sounds like it would take effort - but they don't want to offend you, so they act all enthusiastic.
WRT to the nephew, I suspect she just needed someone to listen to her.
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