How to argue with unreasonable people about money and finances where there really are black and white, right and wrong ways of doing things….

Two things I had never, ever heard of until I joined this forum:
-People asking how much money you have/how you retired early.
And the reverse of that:
-People offering financial advice to those who didn't ask for it.

Still unable to wrap my head around the "why".
 
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-People asking how much money you have/how you retired early.

My 6-year old grandson asked me how much money I had. I told him, "More than I need". No one else has ever asked me that although I HAVE told DS and DDIL my bottom line.
 
Two things I had never, ever heard of until I joined this forum:
-People asking how much money you have/how you retired early.
And the reverse of that:
-People offering financial advice to those who didn't ask for it.

Still unable to wrap my head around the "why".

I've been asked how much we had and how we got it. By my one sibling who cheated on their taxes because being self employed they had to pay too much in to Social Security. Now they complain SS doesn't pay them enough! Then I was told not to take ACA subsidies because I had enough to not take government "handouts."

No you can't make that stuff up.
 
My 6-year old grandson asked me how much money I had. I told him, "More than I need". No one else has ever asked me that although I HAVE told DS and DDIL my bottom line.
Probably something I asked my grandpa.

One of my early memories was of grandpa telling me duck and look small when we entered the bleachers at Wrigley field for Chicago Cubs baseball game. You see, ages 8 and under got in free. I was 9 or 10, can't remember. The actual price was $0.75. Yeah, Wrigley field, 75 cents.

Anyway, I so remember him telling me that and me barking at grandpa: "But Grandpa, I'm actually .. <whack>" Gate agent says: "Is he 8?" Grandpa: "yep" Me: "But... <whack>"

So I got in free. Grandpa paid $0.75. He was a janitor pensioner. Didn't make squat in pension. All's fair. But I still asked him how much he had, I'm sure of it.

He had nothing. The other side of the family had something and when I told them about my other Grandpa sneaking me in, they just shook their heads.
 
Couple of recent examples come to mind

1 relative who resisted for 2 years filing for Social Security after age 70 because….. well no excuse that made sense. Not wanting to get on the Gov’t radar, was lacking info he thought they would need but didn’t etc etc Still 2 years of benefits lost. $40k pissed away. Now busy patting himself on the back when the check comes in. Meanwhile we and his FA talked until blue in the face…

2 friend with an apartment full of stuff but he is retired and lives in another country. Pays carrying costs and taxes on the apartment but earns no income. All old papers and things from his working life that no one wants but only he thinks are very valuable. He hasn’t looked at them in a few years now. Yet can’t let go! I am inclined to hit him with a shovel! He loves to complain about his finances but refuses to even address the low hanging fruit. How to make people who are afraid of change, change or afraid of doing what they have argued against for so long but now realize they are wrong but embarrassed to face it?

Seems I am seeing more and more of this as the people around me age. Or is it me getting less and less tolerant as I age?
DON’T
 
The friend I mentioned earlier, now in his 6th year of paying storage unit fees, lost his job last week. He loved that job- he answered phone calls from Medicare beneficiaries with questions. He always told me about the people he encountered and how he walked slowly through things with the clueless, de-escalated with the angry and persisted in solving complicated issues. He had mentioned that time between calls was increasing so maybe they decided they needed fewer people, but I honestly have no idea why he was targeted.

His 401(k) has always been his piggy bank and his emergency fund. A few years before I met him, he lost a job, divorced and liquidated his 401(k) to spend a year in London studying Spanish legal translation. (He was pretty fluent in Spanish already.) He actually did use that training for awhile but stopped after he couldn't meet continuing education requirements.

So- started new job maybe 10 years ago with zero saved. He borrowed from the 401(k) to buy a car, for emergency vet bills, for various expenses when he moved, etc. I waited a bit till he had time to process the job loss and yesterday asked if he knew he had to pay back the 401(k) loans within 60 days or they'd be considered a taxable withdrawal. Yeah, he knows. Not doing anything because he doesn't have the money. That's a can to kick down the road till April, 2027, I guess.

He turns 75 in April and is collecting SS at least. He's looking for work and has a good network in his city but isn't suited for anything that would keep him on his feet all day.

Really sad to watch but I learned from my first husband not to make anyone's financial problems MY problems. It does not end well.
 
There are two types of Crazy Makers when talking about money.

1. The person who complains about lack of money but won’t do the simple, low-effort things that could reduce wasteful spending and/or increase income. They just continue to complain and wonder why nobody listens to them.

2. People who offer unsolicited and unwanted financial advice and then complain that so-and-so just won’t listen to their words of wisdom. They just continue to try and force feed their unwanted wisdom and wonder why nobody listens to them.
 
The friend I mentioned earlier, now in his 6th year of paying storage unit fees, lost his job last week. He loved that job- he answered phone calls from Medicare beneficiaries with questions. He always told me about the people he encountered and how he walked slowly through things with the clueless, de-escalated with the angry and persisted in solving complicated issues. He had mentioned that time between calls was increasing so maybe they decided they needed fewer people, but I honestly have no idea why he was targeted.

His 401(k) has always been his piggy bank and his emergency fund. A few years before I met him, he lost a job, divorced and liquidated his 401(k) to spend a year in London studying Spanish legal translation. (He was pretty fluent in Spanish already.) He actually did use that training for awhile but stopped after he couldn't meet continuing education requirements.

So- started new job maybe 10 years ago with zero saved. He borrowed from the 401(k) to buy a car, for emergency vet bills, for various expenses when he moved, etc. I waited a bit till he had time to process the job loss and yesterday asked if he knew he had to pay back the 401(k) loans within 60 days or they'd be considered a taxable withdrawal. Yeah, he knows. Not doing anything because he doesn't have the money. That's a can to kick down the road till April, 2027, I guess.

He turns 75 in April and is collecting SS at least. He's looking for work and has a good network in his city but isn't suited for anything that would keep him on his feet all day.

Really sad to watch but I learned from my first husband not to make anyone's financial problems MY problems. It does not end well.
Hopefully, he’ll find something. Sounds like he was very good in the Medicare Beneficiary support job. Based on the deluge of tv commercials for Medicare Advantage plans those providers seem to be thriving. I met someone that sells those plans for a top tier provider. She does very well, works mostly from home but I think she does some in-home meets as well. She is part tome 8 months and goes full time for open season.
 
I agree with above... there are other companies that he can try to get a job with.. if that is what he wants...

To me the questions (might have been answered) is how big is that 401(k) loan? He might want to borrow from somewhere else (at least some of it) to not have a big tax hit...
 
My mom is stupid with money but I gave up years ago. Too many things to complain about. Trust me about wasting money.

One thing I did tell a friend was you probably should pay off your cc because 30% interest is usury. But 10 years later her cc debt has only gone higher. I did suggest occasionally cutting them them up and maybe trying to manage on her cash. She said it's too hard. But what can you say to that?

There can be no argument that it's stupid to pay interest on a cc.
 
In my most recent example, I didn't even try to argue:

I have a close family member that, along with his (soon to be ex-) wife, have spent the last 18+ years telling all of their friends and family that college is a non-negotiable for their children ("Straight from high school, because that's the right way"). We have a very large family and barely a handful have college degree (maybe 50:1), so many have taken their attitude as arrogant. Regardless, in the past year those "non-negotiable college plans" for their kids have fallen by the wayside as their divorce unfolds.

Anyway, I was talking to this family member on the phone today and, acknowledging that those "non-negotiable college plans" didn't come to fruition, I was curious to know what his plans/hopes might be going forward. Didn't matter. I didn't get past acknowledging that his kid isn't in college this year before he went on such a rant that I put the phone down and instead started responding to emails.

After about 10 minutes or so of ranting I heard him ask if I was still there. So I said, "Sorry. Not sure what I said that made you so defensive." His response was to go on another 10 minute plus rant, so I turned my focus back to email. Eventually I heard him ask if I was there again and when I indicated that I was he asked why I think he's being defensive. So, I said, "You've spent the past 25 minutes answering a question, twice, that I haven't even asked." When he finally calmed down enough for me to ask about his plans/hopes for his children, he said, "Things are fluid right now." Fair enough, but if I can't even ask how he's doing without getting an earful, then I'll pass on asking in the future.
 
Hopefully, he’ll find something. Sounds like he was very good in the Medicare Beneficiary support job. Based on the deluge of tv commercials for Medicare Advantage plans those providers seem to be thriving. I met someone that sells those plans for a top tier provider. She does very well, works mostly from home but I think she does some in-home meets as well. She is part tome 8 months and goes full time for open season.

Thanks, but I think he'd rather be homeless! He's heard from too many people who have discovered the limitations of their Advantage plans. He'd never sell them. And yes, I know that there are some members who are very happy with theirs and we have plenty of threads on Advantage plans here. He's a retired lawyer, no longer a member of the bar but still knows a ton of people in the court system in his town and is applying for various positions there.

In the meantime he's looking to replace his employer-provided life insurance because he wants in-ground burial and doesn't want his daughters to have to foot the bill. I've suggested he look into subsidized senior housing because I suspect someday he'll need it and they have long waiting lists, and am trying to get him to apply for unemployment.
 
The title of this thread sort of answers itself, does it not?
"How to argue with unreasonable people about ..."

Doesn't matter the topic. It seems to me that the closest you can come to 'winning' an argument with someone that you perceive as unreasonable is to change the subject or exit the conversation entirely.
 
Full disclosure: Sometimes I am the one I need to convince of something. Classical example: Deciding to sell the family business to the next generation. There were side issues I had to convince my self of in addition to the basic issue of "trust" that the business wouldn't suddenly land back in my lap 6 years down the road. First of all was convincing myself that it would be worth hiring professional legal and financial help. I can be difficult to convince sometimes. :blush:
 
I have a BIL who owns three boats and dozens of guns. His grown kids don’t fish or hunt and have no interest in doing so. In the meantime he’s paying for upkeep and storage. He’s recently disabled and in a wheelchair, refuses to part with them because he “won’t get what they’re worth.”

Over the years he’s called me for “help” in the form of loans we both know he’ll never repay. My plan is the next time he calls, I’ll offer to buy one or more boats for whatever amount he decides they are worth. Give him the money after he signs title(s) over to me. Then I’ll ask his kid, who I’ve also given $ to, to sell them for whatever he can get and send me half. Then move on to the guns.

I’m doing this for my sister as these have been a major annoyance to her for some time. They are rapidly depreciating assets and will, at some point, fall to her to deal with.

Not sure how this will play out re: family peace but we’re not so close I’d lose any sleep over his feelings. Jokingly suggested this to sister and she thought it was both funny and a good idea. She’s really the only one I’d be concerned about offending. So…that’s the plan.


I agree with earlier post: you can’t fix stupid.
 
I’m doing this for my sister as these have been a major annoyance to her for some time. They are rapidly depreciating assets and will, at some point, fall to her to deal with.
Best luck as you do the best you can to help your sister. Just a side note. Guns don't typically depreciate (like a boat or a car) although they do have wide swings in prices due to the prevailing climate. Perhaps by the time you get to them, one of the up-swings in prices will occur. Blessings on you for helping your sister.
 
I've been asked how much we had and how we got it. By my one sibling who cheated on their taxes because being self employed they had to pay too much in to Social Security. Now they complain SS doesn't pay them enough! Then I was told not to take ACA subsidies because I had enough to not take government "handouts."

No you can't make that stuff up.
I was told the same thing by a non-retired neighbor about taking advantage of the ACA subsidies. He then apologized later that afternoon after he thought about it. 🤷
 
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I was told the same thing by a non-retired neighbor about taking advantage of the ACA subsidies. He then apologized later that afternoon after he thought about it. 🤷
I was more than happy to take over 20k in yearly savings due to managing MAGI for the ACA.
They can change the rules.
 
My BIL and his wife moved 2,000 miles, but kept their home as a rental. They maintained the garage as storage for the stuff they left behind. After 20 years, they sold the place, so I'm sure there was lost rental income from not offering the garage. Then they moved much of the contents into a POD, then to a storage unit near their new home. After paying for the unit for 3 years, BIL moved everything into his garage. 60 large boxes, and several other items. Nothing has been opened or looked at in 23 years. Now he has Stage 3 Pancreatic Cancer, so I'm sure he'll never look at them.
 
I am glad that when we bought my DW her new car she was OK with selling the boat.. It took the two car garage as we had to angle it to fit...

Got rid of some stuff (bikes, tools etc.) and now park both cars in the garage..

Why have one of the most expensive purchases sitting outside to age quicker?
 
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