Immigration policy

[Mr._johngalt]

I just switched off '60 Minutes' as they were covering our country's
immigration policy, an abundance of nuttiness if ever there was one.

We don't really have a policy; at least none that I can identify.
The borders are pretty much porous, or so it seems. In other words,
anyone who has just a bit of motivation can get in and stay in.
Pretty sick! I guess we are lucky that most of the inflow is in the
south. God help us if a significant number of Canadians decided
to "cross".

JG

 

[Brat]

The Canadian economy is functioning well, they aren't going hungry.

Immigration from the south is economic and many people are despirate.  Were we to be efficient at enforcing the immigration laws there would be social instability south of our border.  It is hard to accept that we need to consider that, but it is in our own best interest. 

The challange for ICE is to prevent the criminals from crossing while not closing it so tight that it causes other problems.

 

[Eagle43]

I saw the same program.  Trouble is, we want the illegal immigrants to do the work.  I saw a program, years ago, entitled: "What if they all went home?"  Seems that most of our hands-on jobs would go wanting, from waitresses to roofers.
Ask the people in New Orleans, who's doing the work, the very necessary work.  They're living in tents, not whining, and taking the paychecks.  It's Hispanics and I salute them, legal or illegal. 

BTW:  I have told DW several times (she's really against illegals) that were I from Mexico or anywhere south of the border, I would get here.  Nothing would keep me out.  As the program illustrated, the workers can make in an hour what they earn in a day.

 

[wildcat]

We want them to perform the jobs we don't want to yet we don't want them to be in our country

 

[AltaRed]

We want them to perform the jobs we don't want to yet we don't want them to be in our country

Americans cannot have their cake and eat it too. Either pony up and pay the appropriate value for services and goods based on legal wages or... live with what you have. No demand equals no supply. It's the same as the drug war.

 

[sgeeeee]

Not only does nobody really want to close the boarder. . . we couldn't do it if we wanted to. Living in Arizona and doing a lot of archaeology survey on both sides of the boarder, I've gained an understanding of the nature of the boarder that a lot of politicians and knee-jerk racists don't have. There is about 1000 miles of boarder along the desert Southwest. Most of it is in hostile dry or rugged mountainous terrain. Most of it is in areas with virtually no population. How would you protect it? Fences and walls are not effective in populated areas. People find ways to cut fences and scale walls. So you have to guard the boarder. But 1000 miles? Imagine that you are going to guard the whole boarder. You would need a watch station at least every 1/4 mile or so -- more any many places. Then you would have to man those stations 24/7. We're up to about 15,000 new government employees with all their government benefits. Of course we would have to train them first. And they couldn't stand all day in the dessert without protection. We would have to build air conditioned guard stations (more than 4000 of them). Power and water isn't even available over most of that area, so we would have to run power lines and find some way to get water out there. If the guards see someone crossing, they would have to be able to chase them down. So they would need transportation. They all need a 4WD vehicle. And any organization that large would, of course, require a bureaucracy to run it, fight for it's budget, etc.

Anyone counting up the costs on this? My engineering estimates make this out at about $0.5B in year 1 with about $0.25B recurring. How big do we think this problem is?

 

[whitestick]

"Anyone counting up the costs on this? My engineering estimates make this out at about $0.5B in year 1 with about $0.25B recurring. How big do we think this problem is?"
Obviously you have grossly overstated the costs. We would just hire the illegals to do the work at, by your own stated costs, 1/8 of that cost, and we have the added benefit that they are already local to the areas, as evidenced by their attempted crossing. Low cost solution using the assets at hand.

 

[sgeeeee]

Obviously you have grossly overstated the costs.  We would just hire the illegals to do the work at, by your own stated costs, 1/8 of that cost, and we have the added benefit that they are already local to the areas, as evidenced by their attempted crossing.  Low cost solution using the assets at hand.

I like it. That's a plan I would endorse. The crazy thing is it is probably the most reasonable plan I've heard in months.

 

[Brat]

Ah yes, but that work would be a Fed construction contract subject to the Davis-Bacon Act wage determination!

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

I like the idea of a "guest worker program", a species of which we already have in place. You can regulate the flow of people crossing the border to work, while using some of the income tax money they pay for border control. If our economy tanks for a while, we restrict the number of guest worker permits until things change. In the meanwhile, the flow of money from guest workers back to Mexico, Central America and South America might actually have a positive effect on the economies of those areas, thereby alleviating our immigration problem.

 

[Eagle43]

Anybody heard Kinky Friedman's solution to illegal border crossings?

Quote:  Divide the border into five separate areas.  Appoint 5 Mexican Generals, one to be in charge of each area and give him $5 million to enforce it.  Every time someone is caught in a particular General's area, deduct $50,000 from his 5 mil.  Problem will stop, immediately.    UNQUOTE

With apologies to Kinky, but I think I have the gist of his proposal.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Pretty sick!

Yep, dang sick. Those damned immigrants coming here to the US and trying to work and stuff. Why, our forefathers...who...err...came here...umm...from...other countries....heh...would have been up in arms.

Its impossible to 'close the borders' without turning the US into a police state. Well, more of a police state than it is. Not a particularly appealing option either.

 

[justin]

I live in/near the "Little Mexico" (for lack of a better term) part of town. It's kind of a nice place to be. Culture's a little different. To stereotype, most immigrants I've seen are hard-working. They're looking to make a buck just like the rest of "us". When I go to Walmart in Little Mexico, the predominant language seems to be Spanish. The immigrants are also very upwardly mobile. Recent immigrants are our landscapers, cleaning crews, construction workers, and store clerks. Their children will be our teachers, nurses, accountants and engineers. Their grandchildren will be our doctors and lawyers. The "American Dream" is alive and well, at least for our immigrant population (as I see it at least).

 

[Texas Proud]

Being from down south I might have a different take on the matter...

I think we should have a guest worker program, but have different laws on social security, unemployment, medicaid etc... they would not qualify for them... and we would have an income tax of 10% with no deductions to pay for the admin of this program..

Anybody who employed someone NOT on the program, such as all the day workers that are down here, whould receive a $10,000 fine per day of work... it would make people think twice before hiring someone illegal...

But one of the problems I see is the wide use of day laborers... you see the illegals hanging out at many different locations with the contractor or yard man coming by and hiring them for a day... all cash...  they easily can take advantage of the workers and have been shown to do so... if you want to hire someone, hire them!!!

 

[laurence]

My opinion about immigration is the same as my opinion on the "drug war". Instead of spending billions in a futile fight, legalize, regulate, and tax it and turn it into a revenue stream.

 

[JPatrick]

Being from down south I might have a different take on the matter...

I think we should have a guest worker program, but have different laws on social security, unemployment, medicaid etc... they would not qualify for them... and we would have an income tax of 10% with no deductions to pay for the admin of this program..

Anybody who employed someone NOT on the program, such as all the day workers that are down here, whould receive a $10,000 fine per day of work... it would make people think twice before hiring someone illegal...

But one of the problems I see is the wide use of day laborers... you see the illegals hanging out at many different locations with the contractor or yard man coming by and hiring them for a day... all cash...  they easily can take advantage of the workers and have been shown to do so... if you want to hire someone, hire them!!!

Well you are right on with your ideas. The problem is,,,the part about making employers toe the line will never happen. So we will end up with a registered work force of good people (we will know that if we do background checks) but also the same illegals we have now. The absolute key is the enforcement program which actually would be fairly easy if we have the political will to get it done.
BTW, I think we are over looking the incredible costs to our hospitals and virtually every social service organization.  Think you are getting cheap labor?  Think again.

 

[Eagle43]

My opinion about immigration is the same as my opinion on the "drug war".  Instead of spending billions in a futile fight, legalize, regulate, and tax it and turn it into a revenue stream. 

Best idea yet, on immigration and drugs.

 

[brewer12345]

My opinion about immigration is the same as my opinion on the "drug war".  Instead of spending billions in a futile fight, legalize, regulate, and tax it and turn it into a revenue stream. 

I'd toke up to that I hear pot goes well with Mexican food...

 

[Texas Proud]

Well you are right on with your ideas. The problem is,,,the part about making employers toe the line will never happen. So we will end up with a registered work force of good people (we will know that if we do background checks) but also the same illegals we have now. The absolute key is the enforcement program which actually would be fairly easy if we have the political will to get it done.
BTW, I think we are over looking the incredible costs to our hospitals and virtually every social service organization.  Think you are getting cheap labor?  Think again.

It can work, if we have the will to do it.. but, you are correct that the politicians do not want to bite the hand that feeds... even though there are more people who would rather have this than not....

Another problem is enforcement.. the Houston police force have been TOLD they can not ask if the person is an illegal... they say they are not her to enforce the immigration laws and will not do anything with them..

And yes, the cost of the schools and hospitals and other services are a lot... most qualify for free food etc. at school and do not pay taxes... remember that most of this is underground economy

 

[wildcat]

Instead of spending billions in a futile fight, legalize, regulate, and tax it and turn it into a revenue stream.

My home state wants to nominate you for '08...

 

[laurence]

To follow up, I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border, and we've got, what, 5 million illeagals? So 5 million times $2500 equals $12.5 billion, right? Doesn't that pay for several months of the iraq war? Plus, now a good half of them will do the right thing and pay payroll tax etc.

 

[wildcat]

I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border, and we've got, what, 5 million illeagals? So 5 million times $2500 equals $12.5 billion, right?

My new career is calling....Thanks L.

 

[sgeeeee]

To follow up,  I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border . . .

This is much higher than I've heard. The numbers I hear about for coyotes in Phoenix are more along the lines of $100 to $200. It's still a lot of money though. I've had the same thought. If people are willing to put their life at risk by paying these dangerous coyotes $100 or more, surely they would be willing to pay a fee of far more than that to be allowed to cross the boarder legally and safely.

 

[brewer12345]

To follow up,  I've heard estimates of $2500 to pay a cyote to get you across the border, and we've got, what, 5 million illeagals?  So 5 million times $2500 equals $12.5 billion, right?  Doesn't that pay for several months of the iraq war?  Plus, now  a good half of them will do the right thing and pay payroll tax etc.

Sounds good, but I suspect that the poor and desperate will continue to take their chances.

I think we basically have a problem that cannot realistically be solved, so it makes more sense to try to figure out how to live with it and make as much of the situation as possible.  Hard sell in the current political environment, though.  I think the "guest worker" permit idea is not a bad start, but it remains to be seen whether the people who hire illegal immigrants for cash wages would actually adhere to a new set of regulations.

 

[HFWR]

  This is much higher than I've heard.  The numbers I hear about for coyotes in Phoenix are more along the lines of $100 to $200.  It's still a lot of money though.  I've had the same thought.  If people are willing to put their life at risk by paying these dangerous coyotes $100 or more, surely they would be willing to pay a fee of far more than that to be allowed to cross the boarder legally and safely.   

In a Volvo?  :

Seriously, whatever happened to "your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free"?