Is a college degree worth it when it comes to eventual FIRE?

[jollystomper]

I have not read most of this thread. For me, the last thing I was thinking about when I wanted to go to college was FIRE, or FI, or RE, or even retirement. I just thought a degree in a field that (a) I was good at, and (b) was in demand at the time would get me a good job. A good job meant that I could live on my own, save, buy a house, and eventually attract a wife . FIRE was a happy (and unexpected) long term by-product of those choices.

But I was probably in the minority of people going to college knowing exactly (or a least having a narrow range of) what I wanted to study, and for what purpose. That is, in my opinion, what is most important if one chooses to go to college - one should have some idea of the fields one is interested in, and not "hope to figure it out" while there. That is the situation of our youngest DS, who is in a situation of having enough total credits across high school AP and 2 colleges, but not enough within in a major to have a degree yet.

I am also do not believe in the "follow your heart" philosophy often espoused at high school graduations. If asked my opinion by younger folks, I say "follow the value" - balance between what you want to do versus the skills that you have (or that others indicate you have) that are in demand in the job market. In my case my "heart" choice might have been a radio and party DJ, as I was good enough at it in college to earn money and gain the interest of a commercial radio station. Plus there were many "side benefits" I could have chosen to take advantage of . But I knew that career had much lower odds for stability than something in the math/computer (before it was named "IT") industry, so I chose the latter and did not look back.

If one chooses not to go to college, there are fields that are not "glamorous" but where one can gain skills that are in demand and, in the long run, support a FI or RE foundation. A couple of youngest DS's friends have become electricians and are doing very well. Two others are building skills through home renovation - they are finding not many young people are going into that field, and there are older people running home renovation companies who are looking to subcontract out to younger folks. They also are tied in to a couple of realtors, so they are not lacking for work.

Ultimately I do not look at it from a perspective of looking at "college degree worth" for eventual FIRE. I look more at figuring out what skill(s) you have, or what you want to do, that has market value, and does that skill require (or will benefit from) having a college degree. If one "follows the value", that increases the odds (as there are no guarantees) to eventually achieve FI and RE.

 

[HFWR]

So I guess we don’t need art or literature or music?

 

[aja8888]

So I guess we don’t need art or literature or music?

If the world is going to be run by robots and AI, maybe not!

 

[Gumby]

So I guess we don’t need art or literature or music?

Our circumstances often dictate our choices. I had no parental support so I had to go to the free school that would take me and study nuclear engineering so I could earn a living. If I had been a trust fund baby, I might have studied Italian Renaissance Art and spent some of my otherwise idle hours as an assistant curator at the art museum.

 

[HFWR]

Our circumstances often dictate our choices. I had no parental support so I had to go to the free school that would take me and study nuclear engineering so I could earn a living. If I had been a trust fund baby, I might have studied Italian Renaissance Art and spent some of my otherwise idle hours as an assistant curator at the art museum.

So, if there’s no money in it, it has no value, except to the leisure class?

 

[Gumby]

So, if there’s no money in it, it has no value, except to the leisure class?

No. Art, music and literature have value to everyone, but that value would not pay my rent or fill my refrigerator, so I needed a job. The study of art and a job as an assistant curator at the museum is reserved for rich kids because they don't need money. Recognizing that reality is a far cry from saying art, music and literature do not have value. That's why I go to museums, listen to concerts, watch stage productions and read books.

 

[jollystomper]

... The study of art and a job as an assistant curator at the museum is reserved for rich kids because they don't need money. Recognizing that reality is a far cry from saying art, music and literature do not have value. ...

I would also add that that study and job is also possible to those who have spouses/partners willing to "subsidize" them. DW was able to publish books, study art and literature, become and maintain fluency in several languages, teach part time in high school and college without fear of being dragged into the politics du jour, and do it at the timing of her own choosing, because of my good salary. I am *not* complaining about this - if I wanted to marry another potential high earner I could have, but that was not important to me. I knew her choices and I was fine with them. Her value was not so much related to FIRE - which is the focus of this thread - but very much so to our family.

So, if there’s no money in it, it has no value, except to the leisure class?

This thread is about choices and its impact regarding eventual FIRE. Nothing wrong with going into art, literature, or music, just do not expect them to give one the same odds for FIRE as technology fields might, if that is what one truly wants.

 

[HFWR]

No. Art, music and literature have value to everyone, but that value would not pay my rent or fill my refrigerator, so I needed a job. The study of art and a job as an assistant curator at the museum is reserved for rich kids because they don't need money. Recognizing that reality is a far cry from saying art, music and literature do not have value. That's why I go to museums, listen to concerts, watch stage productions and read books.

We don’t value those fields enough for someone to make a living, so apparently those fields aren’t important.

Much like people bitching about raising the minimum wage. Those folks should have to work two or three jobs so I can get a cheap burger.

 

[Lorenzo]

Art, music and literature have value to everyone, but that value would not pay my rent or fill my refrigerator, so I needed a job. The study of art and a job as an assistant curator at the museum is reserved for rich kids because they don't need money. Recognizing that reality is a far cry from saying art, music and literature do not have value. That's why I go to museums, listen to concerts, watch stage productions and read books

Everyone needs food and shelter. I sure hope there is enough funding for the arts (including music, literature, philosophy, etc) that we do not have only rich kids, perhaps many with mediocre GPAs, going into those fields and running the museums and symphonies. For all I know, it's that way now. If so, it's a shame we all can't choose careers based on our true interests and talents without worrying about starving.* I think we benefit from some super-smart people in fields other than STEM.

edit: I realized after posting that we're not really talking about starving but rather not making it to FIRE. That was the original question here. Plenty of people go into the arts and are able to pay the rent and fill the fridge but not all that much more and certainly not become FI and RE.

 

[HFWR]

Obviously a pet peeve of mine, but I have relatives and friends who are plenty well off complaining that their breakfast is now $20 plus tip. The humanity…

Yeah, art majors should have studied STEM, but the world depends on the maids, the servers, the drivers, the secretaries, the cooks, the janitors, and yes, the museum curators, few of whom will experience FIRE.

 

[Texas Proud]

No. Art, music and literature have value to everyone, but that value would not pay my rent or fill my refrigerator, so I needed a job. The study of art and a job as an assistant curator at the museum is reserved for rich kids because they don't need money. Recognizing that reality is a far cry from saying art, music and literature do not have value. That's why I go to museums, listen to concerts, watch stage productions and read books.

Except that there are a LOT of artists that make a boat load of money...

The problem is that same as sports people... a few make a lot and a lot make little..

 

[Gumby]

Except that there are a LOT of artists that make a boat load of money...

The problem is that same as sports people... a few make a lot and a lot make little..

The young wife is a costume designer/maker for local and regional musical theater. I have met many, many actors with strikingly good looks, voices of angels, and the ability to bring characters to life on stage. And, yet, the vast majority of them have day jobs. Almost none of them can make a living from theater. The young wife is probably the best costume creator/seamstress one could ever meet. She went to college and majored in textiles and fashion design, worked in a fashion house before we married, and is meticulous and talented. But she mostly volunteers her skills, because they cannot afford to pay her. And when they do pay her, the costs of her material usually exceeds the pay. Basically, it is a hobby for her now that she is retired from teaching high school.

Yes, I appreciate musical theater and all other artistic endeavors, but if we had children, I would have encouraged them to do something else for money and reserve the theater (and any other arts) for love. It's a shame, but that's reality.

 

[Koolau]

So I guess we don’t need art or literature or music?

We need them - but not necessarily to make a living. DIL got a degree in "Art." She's running a day-car now.

I know a couple of folks who got degrees in music. They w*rk in other fields where their degree earned them entry as a "ticket" or "admission" because they did get a degree. But music isn't involved in their w*rk.

Sad, really. I learned in Nashville one week (attending a school in spectroscopy) that earning a living as a musician takes a lot of luck and even more persistence. Up on the hill, Boots Randolph's club was packed and had a huge cover charge. Down on Broadway, guys were playing for tips. I preferred the music on Broadway. The "Arts" simply don't pay unless you're in the top tier as a performer. You might get a teaching j*b, but otherwise, it's just too iffy unless you can stick out the 10,000 hours it takes to get good - and then luck takes over.

 

[Koolau]

Much like people bitching about raising the minimum wage. Those folks should have to work two or three jobs so I can get a cheap burger.

Apples and oranges IMHO. McDonalds should be a "starter" j*b for teenagers and college students - not for living-wage situations. It's always been supply and demand when it comes to wages. Most people (if they had to) could flip burgers, but not everyone can write code or launch rockets or wire a house.

J*bs that require special skills and abilities simply pay more. It's not evil, it just is. YMMV

 

[corn18]

It is my sincere hope that the world never has to live without art and music and poetry and all the arts. I don't know how to do make it work, I just know we are so much better off with these things. A world filled with only geeks like me would be much less, well, just much less.

It's funny because I watch a symphony and I am amazed at the skill these people have. How do they do that? I could never do that. This is so beautiful. Do they realize how amazing they are?

I wonder if they think the same thing about quantum physics or their smart phone?

 

[ransil]

We fired at 56 I have no degree wife got an Associates for free after company she worked for left country and part of the deal was schooling , during that time ex coworker got her in as an intern at a company , she was hired full time after graduating and took 10 more years to get a bachelors cause they were paying for it , we fired 1 year after that , she is still in the USNR until 60 yrs old ( next year) that was our health care strategy . we were both USN trained and made about the same money , she edged me out by a little bit .

we were both Test Engineers at the end of our careers, me in a medical company and her in a the defense industry.

LBYM was always in the plan.

we never sucked at a job, I did wonder many time how people around me ever got hired and can keep a job, even my last job when it took me a few years to get in the door, guess a degree would have been the key, but my attitude is I will clean toilets for an opportunity and work my way up vs the attitude I should be management from the get go.

 

[Hyper]

I started college for manufacturing technology. Didn't finish the first year. Definitely not for me and feel most of the courses I was made to take was absolutely worthless. To be honest after seeing so many graduates through my career, college didn't do them many favors either.
Walked away from a decent paying job at 45 yo for basically moral reasons. DW at 53, I believe.
I followed $, which I was repeatedly told NOT to do by many others!
I could out work 10 men. My work quality was towards the top. That was my loyalty to a co. That's the only thing that kept me in a job. Certainly wasn't my personality!
BLESSED BY THE GREAT LORD!!!
The last co I worked for had a college requirement. Was there when I hired on also but I was hired anyway.
This significantly hurt the company. Worst part was the co pushed so much more responsibility to those that could to compensate for those that couldn't! Very difficult work environment and wasn't good for those that could, attitudes!

 

[Lorenzo]

If “arts” includes film, my wife tells me every one of her college’s film grads has a job offer.

 

[Cobra9777]

I worked at a large high-tech Megacorp... mostly in planning, finance, strategy, business operations, and supply chain. I also recruited recent grads into those roles, usually people with business-related master’s degrees... MBAs, or MS degrees in Industrial Engineering, Operations, or Supply Chain. We also valued professional certifications and prior work experience. Most were 26-28 years old.

What’s interesting is that the ones who stood out long-term often had undergrads in liberal arts, or something seemingly unrelated to business: Music, Psychology, History, English, Biology, Art. We also saw exceptional results from people with a military background + MBA.

Compared to those with business or STEM undergrads, they just tended to be more well-rounded. They were better at handling the messy, human side of work. They saw nuance, asked better questions, and approached complex problems from unexpected angles.

Anywho.... in my view, undergrad should be about intellectual and personal exploration, not job training. Most 18-year-olds aren’t ready to lock in a lifelong career. And there’s no rush. People live long lives. Finding work that actually fits who you are matters a lot more than chasing the fastest FIRE-friendly ROI.

 

[HFWR]

Apples and oranges IMHO. McDonalds should be a "starter" j*b for teenagers and college students - not for living-wage situations. It's always been supply and demand when it comes to wages. Most people (if they had to) could flip burgers, but not everyone can write code or launch rockets or wire a house.

J*bs that require special skills and abilities simply pay more. It's not evil, it just is. YMMV

There are 1700 restaurants here in Stepfordville. Now throw in the folks driving the garbage trucks, mowing the lawns, cleaning the johns, etc. The “teens and college students” analogy falls apart pretty quickly.

Of course the highly-skilled should be compensated well. But the folks who will never be an engineer needs jobs too, just not two or three.

Off my soapbox…

 

[Sojourner]

Yeah, art majors should have studied STEM, but the world depends on the maids, the servers, the drivers, the secretaries, the cooks, the janitors, and yes, the museum curators, few of whom will experience FIRE.

I don't think anyone is saying here in this thread that STEM jobs (and college degrees) are what every single person should aspire to. I absolutely would not advise a kid in high school with middle-of-the-road grades and SAT scores to pursue a degree in biochemical engineering or neuroscience. Nor would I advise a kid with musical talents and interests to ignore those gifts and focus on a STEM career. But if someone with interest and aptitude for things like engineering or math or science asked my advice about whether they should attend college to earn a STEM degree, with perhaps a long-term goal of early retirement, I would unequivocally say "Yes!".

 

[MrBojangles]

It is my sincere hope that the world never has to live without art and music and poetry and all the arts. I don't know how to do make it work, I just know we are so much better off with these things. A world filled with only geeks like me would be much less, well, just much less.

It's funny because I watch a symphony and I am amazed at the skill these people have. How do they do that? I could never do that. This is so beautiful. Do they realize how amazing they are?

I wonder if they think the same thing about quantum physics or their smart phone?

Me as well. And that’s the problem, arts and music pay extremely poorly, and one is forced to pursue careers that pay well even if they are far less meaningful.

 

[MrBojangles]

I don't think anyone is saying here in this thread that STEM jobs (and college degrees) are what every single person should aspire to. I absolutely would not advise a kid in high school with middle-of-the-road grades and SAT scores to pursue a degree in biochemical engineering or neuroscience. Nor would I advise a kid with musical talents and interests to ignore those gifts and focus on a STEM career. But if someone with interest and aptitude for things like engineering or math or science asked my advice about whether they should attend college to earn a STEM degree, with perhaps a long-term goal of early retirement, I would unequivocally say "Yes!".

It was asked in another post what I, the OP studied in college, and I responded to this post as it relates sort of to myself.

I started out a business major, took one semester of accounting, and found it boring. Told the guidance counselor this, she asked what I wanted to do and I said work for a major corporation (I left out the part about wanting to rise to the top quickly simply because of the high pay). She said that corporations love liberal arts graduates (worst advice I ever got in this lifetime) and so I did just that.

I ended up with a major in Geography, although lots of history, art history, geology, biology, annd other courses to make me well rounded. It was said you never use your major anyways, so why did it matter then nor now what you majored in, it should be your experiences and courses, not your major. So, in the end, I had a degree more useless than English Literature, and no one knows what to do with you. I couldn’t get a job with that after getting my degree in 7 semesters. One interview through the university, and zero job offers. Was I STEM then, a term you hear now? Not sure. Certainly not when I graduated, but due to bleak prospects, I went back another year and took chemistry, organic chemistry, microbiology, biochemistry, calculus, etc, to attempt to make myself more marketable. It didn’t work.

I will state here that before I forget, WHEN YOU GRADUATE is much more important than your major, I think. A poor job market and a STEM degree is just as useful as a liberal arts degree if not one’s hiring. That second go around yielded no results. You would go round and round with the guidance counselor with your resume looking at structure, spelling, the colour and thickness of the paper used, to try and figure out why no results and just get “huh, not sure what’s wrong here”. So, after nine semesters I was reduced to just calling every employer near to home basically begging for a job. Finally landed one at about minimum wage. Then eventually was offered a Federal job that didn’t require all the sciences I took that last year.

Of course I wanted interviews, but, in hindsight, it’s good I didn’t as the first interview I got I stuck straight to the facts but had I had many, I’m sure I would have not received offers as I’m sure with multiple folks interested in me I would have viewed myself on the auction block, available to the highest bidder. And focused on what I believed to be the most important part of the resume, the hobbies and interests part, and I’m sure I would have quickly been dismissed as a wackadoodle! I envisioned that’s where they determined where to put you in a company (reasoning the bottom was no place for me) and if someone starts rambling about how important philanthropy was and how they wanted to change the world, you obviously pay them well and give them important roles vs someone who says they like to stay home and crochet—now yarn never cost a lot.

Not to mention if a corporation wants to be philanthropic, they don’t need me as a middleman determining how to best direct that philanthropy.

 

[Sojourner]

I ended up with a major in Geography, although lots of history, art history, geology, biology, annd other courses to make me well rounded. [...] Was I STEM then, a term you hear now? Not sure.

STEM stands for Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics. Since geography is a science, I think that technically it would be considered a STEM field. Not sure what the job prospects are for someone with a B.S. in geography, but I'd suspect that something like mechanical engineering, computer science/IT, chemistry, or biotechnology would be much more lucrative, in all likelihood. As with anything, though, the details matter, and someone with a B.S. in geography graduating into a robust job market would be much better off than someone graduating with an M.S. in biomedical engineering during a severe recession.

 

[AudiDudi]

I would think someone with a BS in Geography would be in demand in the oil/gas/mining industry.