Is regret good enough reason to sue?

Those investments also have risk. You may not see it that way, but they do.
It doesn’t matter whether I see them as safe or risky. What mattered to my former FA, as I see it in hindsight, is that in a lawsuit or arbitration they can easily find evidence to support their argument that the portfolio composition follows widely held beliefs about what is safe. If I had been a FA, I would probably have set my clients up in a similarly defensible way.
 
It doesn’t matter whether I see them as safe or risky. What mattered to my former FA, as I see it in hindsight, is that in a lawsuit or arbitration they can easily find evidence to support their argument that the portfolio composition follows widely held beliefs about what is safe. If I had been a FA, I would probably have set my clients up in a similarly defensible way.
But they aren’t “safe”. That’s my point. They aren’t treasuries or MM’s or CDs. The investments you listed have risk and thus return. Whether or not they were appropriate depends on the investor’s risk profile, not widely held beliefs.
I could defend an alternative investment if the investor’s risk profile is aggressive.
 
But they aren’t “safe”. That’s my point. They aren’t treasuries or MM’s or CDs. The investments you listed have risk and thus return. Whether or not they were appropriate depends on the investor’s risk profile, not widely held beliefs.
I could defend an alternative investment if the investor’s risk profile is aggressive.
I understand, but good luck with the argument that it depends on the client’s risk profile. If you, the FA, are being sued or in arbitration, your client is going to paint a different picture of their risk profile. Follow the herd is the FA’s safest advice.
 
I understand, but good luck with the argument that it depends on the client’s risk profile. If you, the FA, are being sued or in arbitration, your client is going to paint a different picture of their risk profile. Follow the herd is the FA’s safest advice.
Every brokerage I have engaged with requires an investor profile with your self determined risk profile.
 
I understand, but good luck with the argument that it depends on the client’s risk profile. If you, the FA, are being sued or in arbitration, your client is going to paint a different picture of their risk profile. Follow the herd is the FA’s safest advice.
Which is why they ask a bunch of questions when you open your account so they have it at that time... you can change your profile at times, but they do have that change also...
 
I tend to side with Schwab's position as it relates to this award (unless there are details regarding Schwab's role that are not disclosed in the article).

Also reinforces for me, that any financial advisor that I'd consider working with should be a CFP and held to a fiduciary standard.
 
Which is why they ask a bunch of questions when you open your account so they have it at that time... you can change your profile at times, but they do have that change also...
True, and based on those questions my FA graded my risk profile as "Moderately Aggressive." To him, moderately aggressive meant buying-and-holding broad market and intermediate bond funds and a bit of cash-equivalent for decades. But it seems to me the term "moderately aggressive" could just as well have meant I was okay with "structured products." Heck, I had a 30+ year horizon when he started me down the chosen path. So, my thinking is that the portfolio composition an FA comes up with may depend on how the questions are asked, and the FA's interpretation of the results. Sure, there may be some "best practices" in the industry as to how to go about this--there are no doubt software tools FAs use--but I suspect there is a lot of room for interpretation. I suspect that if my quiz results had indicated "Aggressive," my FA would have used those same funds and simply adjusted the allocation percentages. I don't think there was anything I could have said in my quiz that would have led to something like 100% in the S&P--that was off the table for my FA. Yet I have noted there are folks on this forum who did just that. I don't know what would have been right or wrong for me--and it's water under the bridge--but what I have realized is that there can be a lot of variation in defining and identifying risk tolerance and executing a portfolio strategy based on that.

To return to the original post, it would be interesting to have been a fly on the wall when this FA quizzed his clients about their risk tolerance, goals, etc. What did these investors really think about their risk tolerance, and what did they say to the FA? What impression did the FA get about their risk tolerance? And then, did the FA follow best practices in executing on what he in good faith believed to be their risk tolerance? The FA wasn't in the lawsuit.

I recall one question in the quiz my FA gave me all those years ago: "How would you react if your account balance fell by 50% (or 40% or some such big drop)?" I recall replying to the effect that emotionally it would bother me, yet I would take it in stride as I knew I had many years ahead. I would think that is a pretty aggressive outlook, but that's just my interpretation. Apparently, by my FA's methodology, the emotional component downshifted to Moderately Aggressive what might otherwise have been Aggressive. I recall that in the financial crisis of 2008 my portfolio dropped less than the S&P dropped, but emotionally I didn't feel any better about my situation than I would have if it had dropped by more. What kind of psychologist is the average FA? Reams have been written about the psychology of investing.

In this case, it seems the arbitrators believed a "balanced portfolio of stocks and bonds" more closely fit the "mom-and-pop" plaintiffs' risk profile. "Michael Bixby, a Florida lawyer who represented the investors who won the case against Schwab, said the arbitrators gave a 'full award' that reflected how much the investors would have had if their money had been in a balanced portfolio of stocks and bonds, instead of in structured products."
 
Not every one can DIY.

My wife can run a checking account to pay bills received via USPS mail. That's it.

When I die first, her intent is to cash out all IRAs (she doesn't understand them) and move all of our lower 7 figure savings into the checking account paying 0.00% interest.
Mine too! My ever loving wife even has an MBA.
 
Every brokerage I have engaged with requires an investor profile with your self determined risk profile.
Yes, and if you deviate, you have to refile your risk profile. I recently went through this with Vanguard. I was approaching a rebalancing threshold but didn’t want to trigger a taxable event for MAGI/ACA purposes. Had to sign a new risk profile to increase the stock percentage.
 
Yes, and if you deviate, you have to refile your risk profile. I recently went through this with Vanguard. I was approaching a rebalancing threshold but didn’t want to trigger a taxable event for MAGI/ACA purposes. Had to sign a new risk profile to increase the stock percentage.
Correct. I have had to update mine on occasion as well. It’s a CYA for the brokerage.
 
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One of the big problems that I think I see is there was little to no diversification...

As people here have mentioned, you invest in stocks/bonds/cash etc. with some basic pct based on your tolerance... but I do not think any tolerance will allow say 90% or more in alternative or structured investments...

My problem with the ruling is how was Schwab to know if this was just a small account of the investor or all of what they own? I have what is to me a small account at Fidelity but it is far from diversified... I do not think that it is their duty to make sure I am investing in a good way... they have no idea what else I own...

I wonder if they can appeal? It was not a lawsuit but arbitration so maybe not...
 
... I recall one question in the quiz my FA gave me all those years ago: "How would you react if your account balance fell by 50% (or 40% or some such big drop)?" I recall replying to the effect that emotionally it would bother me, yet I would take it in stride as I knew I had many years ahead. ...
...In this case, it seems the arbitrators believed a "balanced portfolio of stocks and bonds" more closely fit the "mom-and-pop" plaintiffs' risk profile. "Michael Bixby, a Florida lawyer who represented the investors who won the case against Schwab, said the arbitrators gave a 'full award' that reflected how much the investors would have had if their money had been in a balanced portfolio of stocks and bonds, instead of in structured products."
On the first part, the many years ahead might change from when you are 40 to when you are 70.

On the second part, it was the FA who made the investment decisions and decided to concentrate in alternatives, not Schwab. Also, as TexasProud points out, the FA would/should have a better idea of what the client has across everything where Schwab may not.

But in any event, is is not up to Schwab to monitor what a client does in their account... if they want to make what prudence might suggest is a foolish or risky investment then that is their right because it is their money. And the client's delegated that decision to the FA, not to Schwab.

Schwab is involved only because they have deeper pockets than the FA. I hope that Schwab appeals, and wins.
 
At least talk to her about an Ally type of account.
It's gotta be a local brick-and-mortar that she can walk into and use a teller. Only "money tech" she'll use is withdrawing cash at the ATM (which she is very good at).
 
Correct. I have had to update mine on occasion as well. It’s a CYA for the brokerage.
The other factor with investor risk profiles is you have to claim a fairly high level of aggressiveness in order for the broker (Fidelity) to manage your funds at all.

State you are risk averse and they won't set you up with conservative investments. I experimented with an Fidelity SMA starting in January. When I stated I wanted them to manage a sleeve of tax exempt muni bonds/funds, the advisor stated that "as a fiduciary" he would not do that for me.

I don't know if they would do a conservative portfolio as a trust admin for my wife when I kick off.
 
I read the article and am struggling to figure out what Schwab/TDAmeritrade did wrong, the they were obviously deeper pockets that this flaky FA.
They didn’t do anything wrong per se, but they should be more pro active to protect their brand against unscrupulous FAs. FINRA can’t play whack a mole with a thousand lousy FAs so they are holding the big boys accountable. That’s my .02
 
On the second part, it was the FA who made the investment decisions and decided to concentrate in alternatives, not Schwab. Also, as TexasProud points out, the FA would/should have a better idea of what the client has across everything where Schwab may not.

But in any event, is is not up to Schwab to monitor what a client does in their account... if they want to make what prudence might suggest is a foolish or risky investment then that is their right because it is their money. And the client's delegated that decision to the FA, not to Schwab.
I totally agree that the just outcome would be that the FA alone is on the hook, and not Schwab. But if I am understanding correctly, the FINRA arbitration hinges on some regulation that Schwab (I am guessing) allegedly did not comply with, having something to do with "Sales Practice Obligations for Complex Products and Options," as shown in the linked-to FINRA document (which is mainly a Request For Comment on a proposed rule, not even a final rule). I sure didn't read through the lengthy FINRA document, let alone go searching for whatever final rule may have been made. So, fairness aside, the outcome of the arbitration suggests to me that there is a FINRA rule that arguably makes Schwab responsible for monitoring the independent FAs for whom Schwab provides a platform. I have no idea. But if so, those were some clever lawyers to make that argument for a win in arbitration.

Schwab is involved only because they have deeper pockets than the FA. I hope that Schwab appeals, and wins.
100%! If this FINRA arbitration ruling stands, it would set an unfortunate precedent for brokers who provide platforms for independent FAs.

"The investors who won the case were cautiously optimistic about the news. The Schwab spokesperson declined to comment when asked if the firm planned to file a motion to vacate or modify the arbitrators’ award."
 
True, and based on those questions my FA graded my risk profile as "Moderately Aggressive." To him, moderately aggressive meant buying-and-holding broad market and intermediate bond funds and a bit of cash-equivalent for decades. But it seems to me the term "moderately aggressive" could just as well have meant I was okay with "structured products." Heck, I had a 30+ year horizon when he started me down the chosen path. So, my thinking is that the portfolio composition an FA comes up with may depend on how the questions are asked, and the FA's interpretation of the results. Sure, there may be some "best practices" in the industry as to how to go about this--there are no doubt software tools FAs use--but I suspect there is a lot of room for interpretation. I suspect that if my quiz results had indicated "Aggressive," my FA would have used those same funds and simply adjusted the allocation percentages. I don't think there was anything I could have said in my quiz that would have led to something like 100% in the S&P--that was off the table for my FA. Yet I have noted there are folks on this forum who did just that. I don't know what would have been right or wrong for me--and it's water under the bridge--but what I have realized is that there can be a lot of variation in defining and identifying risk tolerance and executing a portfolio strategy based on that.

To return to the original post, it would be interesting to have been a fly on the wall when this FA quizzed his clients about their risk tolerance, goals, etc. What did these investors really think about their risk tolerance, and what did they say to the FA? What impression did the FA get about their risk tolerance? And then, did the FA follow best practices in executing on what he in good faith believed to be their risk tolerance? The FA wasn't in the lawsuit.

I recall one question in the quiz my FA gave me all those years ago: "How would you react if your account balance fell by 50% (or 40% or some such big drop)?" I recall replying to the effect that emotionally it would bother me, yet I would take it in stride as I knew I had many years ahead. I would think that is a pretty aggressive outlook, but that's just my interpretation. Apparently, by my FA's methodology, the emotional component downshifted to Moderately Aggressive what might otherwise have been Aggressive. I recall that in the financial crisis of 2008 my portfolio dropped less than the S&P dropped, but emotionally I didn't feel any better about my situation than I would have if it had dropped by more. What kind of psychologist is the average FA? Reams have been written about the psychology of investing.

In this case, it seems the arbitrators believed a "balanced portfolio of stocks and bonds" more closely fit the "mom-and-pop" plaintiffs' risk profile. "Michael Bixby, a Florida lawyer who represented the investors who won the case against Schwab, said the arbitrators gave a 'full award' that reflected how much the investors would have had if their money had been in a balanced portfolio of stocks and bonds, instead of in structured products."
Yeah, those theoretical questions ("How would you react to a drop of 50%" - or whatever) aren't very predictive. The question should be more like "What did you DO in 2008 or 2001 or 2022?"
 
Sadly, these days, every misfortune is somebody else's fault.
Agreed. On a related note a woman just got $300+k from Carnival cruise lines after SHE had 14 shots in 9 hours and fell down a stair case and hurt herself. Now I KNOW you cannot serve an obviously drunk person, but SHE must have SOME responsibility for her own actions. Sigh.
 
Agreed. On a related note a woman just got $300+k from Carnival cruise lines after SHE had 14 shots in 9 hours and fell down a stair case and hurt herself. Now I KNOW you cannot serve an obviously drunk person, but SHE must have SOME responsibility for her own actions. Sigh.
I read that article. She was found to be 40% contributorily negligent, or she would have gotten more.
 
It's gotta be a local brick-and-mortar that she can walk into and use a teller. Only "money tech" she'll use is withdrawing cash at the ATM (which she is very good at).
You can set up an Ally account in conjunction with a BOA brick and mortar account. The monies stay in the Ally account and you can transfer the needed money online to the BOA account which takes 1 business day.
Just a suggestion, but understand the reticence.
 
Most likely the advisor was sued in a second action or the advisor's insurance company settled, Easy to see this go complicated for Schwab if they are promoting the advisor through their platform of advisors.
 
Did the US walk back the fiduciary laws? What the article doesn't really say is whether the FA made investment choices without the consent of his clients, and whether he fully communicated the risks of those investments. It does seem harsh to go after the trading houses, unless it was they that hired the FA.
 
You can set up an Ally account in conjunction with a BOA brick and mortar account. The monies stay in the Ally account and you can transfer the needed money online to the BOA account which takes 1 business day.
Just a suggestion, but understand the reticence.
I appreciate the additional information. However according to the BoA locator "There are no locations within 100 miles of your search." Apparently there aren't any BoA locations in the entire state.
 
One thing that has been apparent in a number of instances where traders at an institution misbehave is the institution is absolved of market manipulation/etc and are instead charged with "failure to supervise". So suing the brokerage as in this case for failure to supervise seems to fit in.

I don't remember the specifics, but a PM analyst is claiming that the big investment banks accused of manipulating gold/silver/etc prices in fact did not do the manipulation, their employees did. The institutions paid a penalty for failure to supervise the employees.

It's a semantic dodge, but it's the way the system is being administered.
 
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