Italy!

[explanade]

With all this talk about Italy, we are going to work in a short trip to Stresa Italy and the Borromean Islands. It's only 2 hours 21 minutes by a direct train from Lausanne Switzerland or a 3 hour drive. We haven't been to Stresa since August 2008 during the financial crisis. Back then the world was in shock (kind of like now). We drove down and there were very few cars on the roads and almost completely void of tourists. The Euro to dollar exchange rates was 1.52 USD to 1 Euro. The exchange rate is much better now.

I was looking at visiting Maggiore and then Locarno and Lugano but didn't book in time.

 

[oiseux]

Resident Visas to allow you to move to Italy, or most EU Countries, are not easy to get. Mainly limited to students and people working there temporarily for large companies. And the old Schengen Agreement is closely followed.
snip
Europeans don't want rich Americans to move over there and run the house of homes into the stratosphere. Homes in Europe are already extremely expensive. And governments don't want to pay big money for retiree healthcare in their national healthcare programs.

Visas to move and work in Europe are very difficult for non-EU. However, a number of countries including Italy have non-lucrative visas schemes. This means visas where a minimum amount of passive income is required, and usually, no work in the country is permitted. This includes Spain, Portugal, France.

Italy's scheme is called the Elective Residence Visa. It has a relatively high passive income threshold (starts at 32K Euro for a single and then goes up).

Italy also introduced a new tax incentive to get people to move to less populous areas in the south. It offers a 7% flat tax on non-Italian income for 10 years.

They also have a special tax program for UHNW individuals that offers a flat 100K euro tax (plus 25K per family member). It also offers an expedited visa and is valid for up to 15 years. They want rich foreigners (and Italians who have made their fortunes overseas) to return back.

The so-called Golden Visa programs still exist, although some are tightening up. This is covered in another thread, I think. This includes Portugal, Spain, Greece, etc. Literally people are buying up houses to qualify, and even whole developments in places like Southern Portugal are marketed as qualifying purchases. My spouses' coworker just bought a condo and Golden Visa for Greece (one of the lowest cost programs, 250K euro).

 

[NW-Bound]

I love to tour exotic places, but the truth is that once you live somewhere for a while you will get used to it and want to experience something else. After all, people who live there still go on vacation somewhere else.

With the world being so big and there are so many places I have not been to, I have given up the idea of relocating elsewhere. And all the red tapes are a real turn off.

Before I thought of moving somewhere, I would try to stay for the Schengen tourist limit of 90 days to see if I wanted to stay longer.

 

[bltkmt]

We just got back from 25 days in Europe - Munich, Florence, Prota, Rome, Anzio, Lisbon and the Algarve. Such a great trip. We did a one night stop at an agrotourismo location between Prota and Rome and have decided that our next trip will not be in big cities, but rather in the country with a car.

 

[Eastbayboy]

Visas to move and work in Europe are very difficult for non-EU. However, a number of countries including Italy have non-lucrative visas schemes. This means visas where a minimum amount of passive income is required, and usually, no work in the country is permitted. This includes Spain, Portugal, France.

Italy's scheme is called the Elective Residence Visa. It has a relatively high passive income threshold (starts at 32K Euro for a single and then goes up).

Italy also introduced a new tax incentive to get people to move to less populous areas in the south. It offers a 7% flat tax on non-Italian income for 10 years.

They also have a special tax program for UHNW individuals that offers a flat 100K euro tax (plus 25K per family member). It also offers an expedited visa and is valid for up to 15 years. They want rich foreigners (and Italians who have made their fortunes overseas) to return back.

The so-called Golden Visa programs still exist, although some are tightening up. This is covered in another thread, I think. This includes Portugal, Spain, Greece, etc. Literally people are buying up houses to qualify, and even whole developments in places like Southern Portugal are marketed as qualifying purchases. My spouses' coworker just bought a condo and Golden Visa for Greece (one of the lowest cost programs, 250K euro).

Great and accurate summary about the elective residency for Italy. We are thinking about the ER in the next 18 months. You need income, private health care, and a 1 year lease. My mother was born in Italy and was not an Italian citizen when I was born. No dual citizenship for me. Taking a 5 week trip in October and visit the Genoa region to check out the area since I heard this is a great location with ample transportation and good health care.

 

[explanade]

The question is what kind of tax liability you might have if you reside in Italy long term.

I know the first $85k or something like that is exempt from taxation since you already pay to the IRS but in previous threads, there has been talk of some wealth tax schemes in Europe.

 

[oiseux]

The question is what kind of tax liability you might have if you reside in Italy long term.

I know the first $85k or something like that is exempt from taxation since you already pay to the IRS but in previous threads, there has been talk of some wealth tax schemes in Europe.

Under the tax treaty between Italy and the US, you tend to pay the higher of the two rates (except for SS/government pensions, I think, which default to the US treatment). I don't believe there is an 85K exemption threshold -- Sounds like eastbayboy may know the exact details. You may be thinking about the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, which usually is not triggered by people under FIRE (passive income is ineligible). In Italy there is a pensioner exemption of like 7500-7700E and some partial deductions for things like health insurance and mortgages, I believe (and other deductions). The Italian rates can get pretty high, pretty quickly but passive income is treated with a (higher) flat rate.

Italy has a wealth tax on overseas investments of 0.2% (relatively low, and I believe 401K/IRAs may be exempted) and overseas properties of 0.76% (choice of original or current gross value, with a possible credit for property taxes). Several other countries have wealth taxes, although there is often a relatively high exclusion amount and similar credit schemes. Note there are property and stamp taxes on Italy resident assets as well.

This is why the tax schemes can be attractive for those that want to live in Italy. However, many just go ahead and pay the extra cost, as the want to enjoy the life there and understand services come with a cost.

I know of Americans who initially picked Italy but moved to places like Menton, just over the Italy-France border. Due to the tax treaty differences, the savings can be considerable.

 

[Teacher Terry]

A good friend of mine and her adult kids have hired a Italian lawyer to help them obtain citizenship. If obtained her kids will buy a house with in-law quarters. They have been working remotely in the tech industry for a decade so it doesn’t matter where they live.

 

[rodi]

We have the option for Italy because hubby and both sons are dual citizens. I could get a resident visa as the wife of a citizen if we moved there.

But chances are we won't.

Both boys are considering grad school in Italy. I'm encouraging this. Mainly because I'd like to have them there and go visit them. LOL

 

[Teacher Terry]

Great choice for grad school!

 

[explanade]

Under the tax treaty between Italy and the US, you tend to pay the higher of the two rates (except for SS/government pensions, I think, which default to the US treatment). I don't believe there is an 85K exemption threshold -- Sounds like eastbayboy may know the exact details. You may be thinking about the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, which usually is not triggered by people under FIRE (passive income is ineligible). In Italy there is a pensioner exemption of like 7500-7700E and some partial deductions for things like health insurance and mortgages, I believe (and other deductions). The Italian rates can get pretty high, pretty quickly but passive income is treated with a (higher) flat rate.

Italy has a wealth tax on overseas investments of 0.2% (relatively low, and I believe 401K/IRAs may be exempted) and overseas properties of 0.76% (choice of original or current gross value, with a possible credit for property taxes). Several other countries have wealth taxes, although there is often a relatively high exclusion amount and similar credit schemes. Note there are property and stamp taxes on Italy resident assets as well.

This is why the tax schemes can be attractive for those that want to live in Italy. However, many just go ahead and pay the extra cost, as the want to enjoy the life there and understand services come with a cost.

I know of Americans who initially picked Italy but moved to places like Menton, just over the Italy-France border. Due to the tax treaty differences, the savings can be considerable.

Really, France is more favorable for taxes?

Briefly drove through Menton last month, coming from Sanremo.

Menton is bigger but seemed nicer. Packed though, hard to find parking.

 

[oiseux]

Really, France is more favorable for taxes?

Briefly drove through Menton last month, coming from Sanremo.

Menton is bigger but seemed nicer. Packed though, hard to find parking.

For American citizens who are not working, living on US-sourced passive income, the US-France tax treaty is more favorable. The treaty is different in that it provides for full credit of the French tax amount against French tax for US-based sources (with a couple of exceptions, most notably CG from real estate, a case where the French rules can be lower). France does not tax pensions and equivalents, including 401Ks, private pensions and Roths. This means the effective tax reverts essentially to the US tax. Other treaties essentially net to the higher of the two rates and nearly all countries tax Roths. There is a wealth tax on property (with a 1.3M Euro trigger plus primary home 30% reduction). This link has a good illustration: link

 

[Chuckanut]

High Speed trains now connect Rome's da Vinci aeroporto with Firenze and Napoli. There is no more need to travel into central Rome to get a train to these cities.

https://www.wantedinrome.com/news/r...ct-high-speed-rail-links-naples-florence.html

Rome's Fiumicino airport, known officially as Leonardo da Vinci, has three new direct high-speed connections with Naples and Florence as part of a major development to link rail and air travel for its passengers.

The multiple award-winning airport boasts that the new direct high-speed rail links will allow passengers to leave Naples or Florence by train at dawn and be in New York in the early afternoon.

 

[Chuckanut]

The last Dominoes franchise in Italy has closed.

They could not compete in the country that invented pizza. (I wonder if they had a franchise in Naples? That seems far-fetched.)

There is hope after all.

 

[Chuckanut]

A Happy Ferragosto to all our Italian friends today!

Ferragosto is a public holiday celebrated on 15 August in all of Italy. It originates from Feriae Augusti, the festival of emperor Augustus, who made the 1st of August a day of rest after weeks of hard work on the agricultural sector. It became a custom for the workers to wish their employers "buon ferragosto" and receive a monetary bonus

It's also the feast day of the Ascension of Mary into Heaven. Mary is important to Italians. She is after all a Mother. And many Italian men are reputed to be il mammone.

 

[oiseux]

The last Dominoes franchise in Italy has closed.

They could not compete in the country that invented pizza. (I wonder if they had a franchise in Naples? That seems far-fetched.)

There is hope after all.

I wonder what set of marketing geniuses sold the business plan for this investment? I wonder what type of arguments you had to invent in order to convince the executive management that this indeed, was a good idea.

I saw the CNN article with the reasons they are citing for the failure, after seven years of trying: too much competition from food delivery apps and preference for dining together (true). They of course sidestep the obvious -- the product is not good.

 

[Chuckanut]

I They of course sidestep the obvious -- the product is not good.

Mhy daughter ordered pizza from D's a few years ago (pre all the pandemic issues). IMO, it was not good. But, I won't be around that long and I buy very little food for delivery. So who cares! But, in my grandchild's opinion it was not good. Thing are bad when 7 year olds with long memories and long lifespans reject your product.

 

[explanade]

I've seen Dominos pizza in France and Spain, never tried them.

I think maybe they were heavily emphasizing takeout while most pizzerias would be sit-down.

Also maybe offered delivery long before delivery apps.

Otherwise, maybe they thought they'd have similar success to other American fast food chains in Europe.

 

[Chuckanut]

There are several Starbucks in Italy. I have known a few Italians who have traveled to the USA and developed a taste for some of their double caramel soy skinny decafe lattè things. So they go to Starbucks to get that.

 

[oiseux]

Mhy daughter ordered pizza from D's a few years ago (pre all the pandemic issues). IMO, it was not good. But, I won't be around that long and I buy very little food for delivery. So who cares! But, in my grandchild's opinion it was not good. Thing are bad when 7 year olds with long memories and long lifespans reject your product.

You know it is not good when 7 year old children reject pizza.

I've not had Domino's in Europe, but I've seen them. I don't know if they localize the menu and/or make it better. EDIT -- I just checked out the menu in France and it is completely localized. They offer a Savoyarde pizza that actually sounds tempting (with creme fraiche, potatoes, bacon, mozza and reblouchon cheese). 8E for a large.

I did eat at a Pizza Hut in Egypt (don't judge, this was 25 years ago and we needed something clean and different from what we had been eating)

 

[Chuckanut]

I did eat at a Pizza Hut in Egypt (don't judge, this was 25 years ago and we needed something clean and different from what we had been eating)

No judgment. Years ago I had been traveling through Belgium and the Netherlands. One afternoon, I got a wild craving for a burger. I remembered seeing Burger King near the train station. I scampered off to the BK, ordered a burger and enjoyed myself. I believe it's the only time I have ever eaten American fast food in Europe.

 

[explanade]

Over the decades, American fast food has proliferated in Europe.

Not just the American chains but a lot of local restaurants have burgers on their menus or there are restaurants which specialize in burgers.

It's a common meal option in most places now.

There are also starting to be Mexican food places and now a lot of poke places.

 

[oiseux]

No judgment. Years ago I had been traveling through Belgium and the Netherlands. One afternoon, I got a wild craving for a burger. I remembered seeing Burger King near the train station. I scampered off to the BK, ordered a burger and enjoyed myself. I believe it's the only time I have ever eaten American fast food in Europe.

I forgot to add, that the Pizza Hut was at Giza, on an upper story with an amazing view of the Sphynx and the Pyramids (and an amazing roof deck).

I believe the hamburger has surpassed the ham & butter baguette as the top sandwich, in terms of sales, in France. It is so common on French menus that younger French sometimes forget that it is American. However, "tacos" are more commonly a France a unique invention that is part wrap, part kebab, part cheesy mess. These are taking the country by storm in many, many quick takeaway, along with that German-Turkish invention, the doner kebab. I have, however, otherwise avoided US chains in Europe.

 

[explanade]

I went to a place in Vevey offering tacos or burritos.

Forget what exactly I ordered but they put in chicken, vegetables and cheese in a wrap and then put the thing in a panini press and melted the cheese and toasted the wrap. It was all enclosed.

It wasn't bad and the place had good reviews which is why I went there.

Other thing is one of the first times I went to Paris, there was a chain of a few restaurants, which I've only seen in Paris, which was called Indiana. Never tried it but as I understood it, it was offering Tex-Mex type of foods.

 

[bmcgonig]

I’m sure I’m in the vast minority here but having spent almost 3-4 months visiting Italy over the years I’ve yet to meet an Italian pizza that impressed me. There’s one in Florence that has lines outside it and is mentioned in tourist guides, so I tried that when I was there this summer. Waited my (long) turn. It was really just meh. I would prefer a decent American pizza any day.

With respect to Starbucks, what’s missing in Italy is a LARGE cup of latté or mocha or even drip coffee. Americanos are nasty. Just watered down espressos. You get wonderful espresso, cappuccino, lattés, doppios etc., but if it’s a chilly day and you want a large hot drink, it’s impossible in my experience.

But yes they do have some of the best food in the world, and am always grateful for being introduced to Aperol and Campari Spritzes!