Keto diet: expected lipid test results?

Come to think of it, what sort of lipid numbers does a ketogenic person have? When fasted they should be high enough to support normal metabolism. An average lipid number of X over 24 hours should equal the number of calories he burns in a day. So what is X per 100 calories over a day?

When not fasted, some stored in the liver & the excess into the blood, to be burned or excreted, right?

If you have a lipid level above your cal/day burn, then you can just eat less if you want to, because the rest should be excreted, right?
 
I just noticed a datapoint on the recent blood test (post#4).
My glucose was "normal" at 83 (65-99 mg/dL range).
They didn't test insulin, which seems weird when I asked for a comprehensive test.

What sort of glucose number should you see in keto? Is 83 consistant with being in keto?
 
What matters is your fasting insulin. But that is not a standard test or part of any comprehensive panel.

Fasting glucose 83 - that’s normal. It can be even a little high with keto as some folks experience a “dawn effect” which is meaningless.

Fasting glucose doesn’t tell you much. A1C tells you way more.
 
Total chol and LDL can rise under keto. That's a common occurrence and a common concern. You can find lots of info out there about it.

The real question for me is, is that actually a problem, or is the whole cholesterol thing a big nothing burger, propped up by bad science, financial interests, and medical professionals too busy to question the received dogma? You can probably tell from my tone what my beliefs are.

I think it's very important to self-educate on this subject and not just go with what your doctor tells you. From what I've read, there is no good evidence that cholesterol is a cause of health problems. And although there is some data to suggest that LDL may sometimes play a small role, what seems more important than overall LDL level is type of LDL (e.g., glycated or not, size) and the environment that the LDL is in (i.e., metabolic health or sickness).

I personally don't pay much attention to Total chol. or global LDL. I don't think they're good markers for anything.


The guru I listened to said it LDL-P, "LDL-Particle count" and LP(a) Pronounced LP little a. As I understood it, an LDL cholesterol can carry the LP(a) on itself. I can't quite tell if this article agrees, it calls it an, "LDL-like particle"
https://www.amgenscience.com/features/10-things-to-know-about-lipoproteina/
 
What matters is your fasting insulin. But that is not a standard test or part of any comprehensive panel.

Fasting glucose 83 - that’s normal. It can be even a little high with keto as some folks experience a “dawn effect” which is meaningless.

Fasting glucose doesn’t tell you much. A1C tells you way more.

But I think he already said his test wasn't done after fasting, so might be very inaccurate.
 
Total chol and LDL can rise under keto. That's a common occurrence and a common concern. You can find lots of info out there about it.

The real question for me is, is that actually a problem, or is the whole cholesterol thing a big nothing burger, propped up by bad science, financial interests, and medical professionals too busy to question the received dogma? You can probably tell from my tone what my beliefs are.

I think it's very important to self-educate on this subject and not just go with what your doctor tells you. From what I've read, there is no good evidence that cholesterol is a cause of health problems. And although there is some data to suggest that LDL may sometimes play a small role, what seems more important than overall LDL level is type of LDL (e.g., glycated or not, size) and the environment that the LDL is in (i.e., metabolic health or sickness).

I personally don't pay much attention to Total chol. or global LDL. I don't think they're good markers for anything.

What I don't understand, is why when atherosclerotic studies are performed on other animals (mice, rats, monkeys) would they use a high fat/cholesterol diet to induce atherosclerosis? If high cholesterol and fat is good for our species, what does it prove by inducing it in other animals?
 
What I don't understand, is why when atherosclerotic studies are performed on other animals (mice, rats, monkeys) would they use a high fat/cholesterol diet to induce atherosclerosis? If high cholesterol and fat is good for our species, what does it prove by inducing it in other animals?

The short answer is "nothing."

Nutritional science (what studies get funded, which get published, which get promoted) is highly flawed, and it is also highly influenced by ideological commitments. It is almost entirely based on either epidemiology, the weakest form of evidence, or else animal studies like the ones you mention, which cannot be extrapolated to human beings because of our very different diets, physiologies, and digestive systems.

To be fair, conducting long-term, randomized controlled studies of nutrition on humans is difficult or impossible from an ethical, pragmatic, or financial perspective. That's just a scientific limitation, though, which could be made clear in the reporting, although it never is. It's not the main problem.

The main problem is that financial interests and ideological commitments dictate much of what happens in this field. The financial interests are pretty obvious. Billions of dollars are at stake in the "cholesterol is bad" story. Think of all the low-fat, low-cholesterol products that have been sold, and all the money made by pharmaceutical companies selling cholesterol-lowering drugs. These are often the companies funding the research. Do you think their interests influence which studies get done, which get published, and which get promoted? Of course.

The ideological commitments are a little harder to see. The anti-saturated fat narrative, for instance, is linked in its origin not just to crap science -- I assume we all know the story of Ancel Keys* -- but to the Seventh Day Adventist Church, which is anti-meat, and whose universities still fund much of this research. The ideological influence continues to be widespread and can be seen in the WHO's decision-making, for instance (one reason why their apparent complicity in covering up the virus outbreak in China did not surprise me); their committee is largely vegan and vegetarian (meat is bad, so saturated fat must be bad), although they don't declare their biases. These people often have an emotional commitment to their beliefs that resembles a religion.

In addition, these researchers, board members, journal editors, etc., have often spent their entire careers believing in and doing work to support the "saturated fat is bad" narrative. So they do not want to look at conflicting evidence that suggests all their work has been for naught -- or worse, has misled and harmed people.

I don't want to go on too long about it (too late, you say). Basically, nutritional science is characterized by reliance on the weakest forms of evidence and is driven by ideological commitments and financial interests.


*Somewhere in a dingy basement, they recently found an unpublished research study by Keys that was impressively well-controlled and which completely disconfirmed the saturated fat hypothesis. He buried the study, did not submit it for publication.
 
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Eddie you are nailing it with your posts in this thread, thank you!

I've lost over 100 lbs on keto and OMAD (one meal a day intermittent fasting). Have been getting blood tested every few months and things are looking just fine. Not worried at all about my cholesterol anymore. Far less likely to die from many things now that I am no longer obese.
 
Had a long post, but the "your browser timed out" monster ate it.

This guy claims Attia & Taubes created an dubious non-profit and are milking it for huge salaries, and its single study contradicted their good/bad hypothesis. But he doesn't address insulin issues in his criticism. And maybe his books compete against them:

The Art of Bullshit, Part 1: Gary Taubes and NuSI – Anthony Colpo

Anthony Colpo is an independent researcher, physical conditioning specialist, and author of the groundbreaking books The Fat Loss Bible, The Great Cholesterol Con and Whole Grains, Empty Promises.

And geez, did the same thing again, only this time it did not lose my content.
 
I assume we all know the story of Ancel Keys*
...
*Somewhere in a dingy basement, they recently found an unpublished research study by Keys that was impressively well-controlled and which completely disconfirmed the saturated fat hypothesis. He buried the study, did not submit it for publication.

No. Links? Study ever put online?
 
I talked with my doc yesterday and mentioned my triglycerides dropping from 397 to 82, he said, that's not really as big as it seems because 60 of that is your LDL, (that dropped from 106 to 54) That's 62, 60 was a quick calculation in his head. He also said losing 19 lbs had a lot to do with the drop in triglycerides.
So, is your LDL count included in the triglyceride number?
I'm confused by his statement.
 
No. Links? Study ever put online?

"No," meaning you don't know about Ancel Keys? Oh dear. He, along with his compatriots, then George McGovern ("I don't have time to wait for the science") are the reason the whole "cholesterol is bad" story got started in the first place.

Keys was a "scientist" who did some incredibly weak science. Here's a 2-minute recap:


The full story is more complicated than that, of course, and involves arrogance, politics, financial interests, fear, and misrepresentation. Nina Teicholz's book, Big Fat Surprise, lays it all out.

I don't have a link to the buried study I mentioned, but I see harley has provided it. Thanks, harley.
 
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I talked with my doc yesterday and mentioned my triglycerides dropping from 397 to 82, he said, that's not really as big as it seems because 60 of that is your LDL, (that dropped from 106 to 54) That's 62, 60 was a quick calculation in his head. He also said losing 19 lbs had a lot to do with the drop in triglycerides.
So, is your LDL count included in the triglyceride number?
I'm confused by his statement.
No, I don’t think so. Never heard that. Total cholesterol number includes LDL, yes. Eating low carbs drops triglycerides regardless of weight loss AFAIK. Sorry, you’d have to do a lot more research and maybe find some papers for your doc.

My trigs dropped drastically and my LDL went UP. So that doesn’t jive with his statement.
 
No, I don’t think so. Never heard that. Total cholesterol number includes LDL, yes. Eating low carbs drops triglycerides regardless of weight loss AFAIK. Sorry, you’d have to do a lot more research and maybe find some papers for your doc.

My trigs dropped drastically and my LDL went UP. So that doesn’t jive with his statement.


I found a couple of things, the Friedewald Method is commonly used to calculate LDL-C, not measure it.

https://scottyketo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/LDLmiscalc.pdf



Then I found Quest no longer uses the Friedewald method and has switched to the Martin-Hopkins calculation, which is still a calculation but supposed to be more accurate at higher and lower levels of Triglycerides.
LDL Cholesterol Calculations


So, I'm not sure if my doc assumed the Friedewald Method and corrected for that (or if it need correction and how he made the correction) or if the Martin-Hopkins calculation needs any correction for the Triglyceride value

( I think not).


If you see any clarification, I 'd like to hear it.
It's all so interesting but so complicated.
 
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