Knowing when to move on

[laurence]

So I've had some really good months at work lately, even got a couple of plaques and bonuses, put my picture in the company newsletter etc.

But I still ain't gettin' paid.

I've talked with my boss, and the director, and even his boss about it (discreetly, of course) and everyone keeps saying the right things, like, "we don't want to lose you" "we see great things in your future" etc. but nothing's happened and it's been almost a year.

So someone sent me an email with some job openings at a company that's closer to home and is growing quite rapidly. I applied today, just to see what would happen.

So my question to you young dreamers and those re's who can remember back when, how do you know when it's time to jump ship? I mean both the numbers game and the feel. What signs do you look for and how much of a jump in pay do you need to make it worth it? I've heard 20% bandied around. How do you factor in 401k matching (say your current work has it and the next one doesn't). I've been with my current company 2.5 years, and at 5 I become vested in the pension, which at that point would get me ~500 bucks starting at 65. All thoughts are welcome. I hate the thought of starting over, but sometimes it's what you gotta do to get ahead in this world right?

 

[nwsteve]

Laurence
Deciding to move should be more than this month's paycheck decision. That said, plenty of research says that fastest pay progression comes from movement.
You DO want to have a complete list of what is important to you in a job. Rate your current position against those values but also any other opporutnity you see.
Probably more important than bucks alone, are things like opportunities to learn, recognition, life style alignment, workplace flexibility. core value, employer economic viability, quality of leadership and relationship with your direct manager.
Make your list and score your current job and see how good or bad it is.
nwsteve

 

[TromboneAl]

Would this help?

http://www.google.com/search?source...GLD,GGLD:2004-08,GGLD:en&q=how+to+get+a+raise

 

[REWahoo]

Nwsteve is right. You will be of higher value to another employer than to your own...until you give notice. Then your current employer will offer you more $ to stay. Which says they were getting you on the cheap and have been doing so for some time.

If you do get and accept another job, don't be tempted to stay no matter what is said or offered. You will always be 'suspect' from that point on.

REW

 

[REWahoo]

Would this help?

T-Al, we all know you have a 'thing' about spelling and grammar. Some of us have a 'thing' about posting long URL's....

REW

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Nwsteve is right.  You will be of higher value to another employer than to your own...until you give notice.  Then your current employer will offer you more $ to stay.  Which says they were getting you on the cheap and have been doing so for some time. 

If you do get and accept another job, don't be tempted to stay no matter what is said or offered.  You will always be 'suspect' from that point on.

REW

I agree with REW, although I have done it and it worked out okay. The
worst part for me was having someone counting on me coming to work for them
and then having to explain I had received a "Godfather" offer and had opted to stay put.

JG

 

[TromboneAl]

Some of us have a 'thing' about posting long URL's....

Sorry about that. Can't you just click on it?

In any case, you can get that by googling

how to get a raise

 

[REWahoo]

Sorry about that. Can't you just click on it?

In any case, you can get that by googling

how to get a raise

The problem is the length of the URL extends beyond the width of my screen and I have to scroll left and right to read each post on the most recent 50.

Thanks.

REW

 

[laurence]

Yeah, thanks for the input, it's definitely not just about the money, but I could be 20k underpaid at this point. I'd like it to work out where I am, but my patience is running thin. I have to get an offer from the other company before there is even an issue, though.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Laurence,

I know exactly the feeling to which you are referring. I also feel underpaid (who doesn't?) but I decided to look at things another way to give myself a little perspective on my dissatisfaction. Specifically, I put myself in my boss' shoes -- not my immediate boss -- but the owner of the company boss. What's the primary concern of the owner of the company? Making money. Period. End of story. While it's great to have a high employee morale, keep your employees happy, offer a pleasant working environment, etc... the bottom line is that a company is in the business of making as much money as possible for its owners and high-level executives.

Consequently, I've asked myself over the past couple of days what my money-making value is to my employer. Sure, I'm a bright guy, and I think that I should be paid for bringing my intelligence, drive, eagerness and loyalty to the table. In fact, I ought to get paid just for showing up, since it's my employer's obligation to take advantage of those qualities. Yet is it? Don't I have the responsibility of demonstrating my value to the company before expecting to be compensated for it? My guess is that most employers think exactly this way. In response to my demand "show me the money," my employer would respond "show ME the money" first.

Thus, the best way to get the raise you want -- whether from your current employer or from another company -- is to articulate how you can make (or are making) your employer money, and focus on those things in doing your job.

In your case, it's clear that your employer is attempting to placate you, giving you pats on the back periodically to keep your nose to the grindstone. Yet if you were making your employer dumptruck loads of money, your efforts would be rewarded richly. Why? Because if you left for another company, the money you've been generating would disappear. That's your employer's thumbscrew. You can threaten to take your knowledge and skills to another employer, but most people are fungible when it comes to such things so your employer won't care. Yet if you take your revenue generating ability (which is far more rare), your employer will do what it takes to keep you, and will continue to do so as long as you continue to deliver the money.

 

[laurence]

Good post Jay,

Unfortunately, as a Computer Security guy, I don't generate money, my company officially brands my department a "cost center".

My company also seems to have the policy that they'll underpay until you find another position, then they'll counter. I get why they are doing that, you hit it on the head, it's about making money. But that's also why I have no problem jumping ship if the scenario is right. They would have no problem laying me off if they needed to, so I should have no problem laying them off. Nothing personal, strictly business. I just want to make sure I don't hose myself in the long run for a couple grand more.

 

[Nords]

But I still ain't gettin' paid.

So my question to you young dreamers and those re's who can remember back when, how do you know when it's time to jump ship?

Um, I've never had to make a profit at any of my jobs, but I think you know that it's time to tell your boss you've found a new way to reduce expenses in your cost center by the value of your salary & benefits.

My BIL jumped from one accounting firm to another for no real pay improvement. But he cut his commute by 75% (from an hour to 15 minutes) and ended up with more responsibility at a smaller firm. A year later his salary & benefits have risen above his old job but he still marvels at how much time he has back in his life by cutting down that commute.

I guess you have to put dollar figures on your healthcare, 401(k), company stock, pay, & perks and then compare it to your new place. Then you'd want to look at the personalities, the bureaucracy, and the general hassle factors. But once you tell your current employer that you're leaving, no amount of bribery benefits enhancements should change your mind. I think TH used to quote studies where the vast majority of those influenced to stay left within the next year anyway.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Um, I've never had to make a profit at any of my jobs, but I think you know that it's time to tell your boss you've found a new way to reduce expenses in your cost center by the value of your salary & benefits.

My BIL jumped from one accounting firm to another for no real pay improvement.  But he cut his commute by 75% (from an hour to 15 minutes) and ended up with more responsibility at a smaller firm.  A year later his salary & benefits have risen above his old job but he still marvels at how much time he has back in his life by cutting down that commute.

I guess you have to put dollar figures on your healthcare, 401(k), company stock, pay, & perks and then compare it to your new place.  Then you'd want to look at the personalities, the bureaucracy, and the general hassle factors.  But once you tell your current employer that you're leaving, no amount of bribery benefits enhancements should change your mind.  I think TH used to quote studies where the vast majority of those influenced to stay left within the next year anyway.

After I took my first full time job, I switched employers 7 times
(full time only) before I quit. Never made a move I really regretted.
Just lucky I guess.

JG

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Good post Jay,

Unfortunately, as a Computer Security guy, I don't generate money, my company officially brands my department a "cost center". 

My company also seems to have the policy that they'll underpay until you find another position, then they'll counter.  I get why they are doing that, you hit it on the head, it's about making money.  But that's also why I have no problem jumping ship if the scenario is right.  They would have no problem laying me off if they needed to, so I should have no problem laying them off.  Nothing personal, strictly business.  I just want to make sure I don't hose myself in the long run for a couple grand more. 

Yeah, I like the "Godfather" approach too, i.e. "It's not personal, just
business."

JG

 

[Martha]

You mentioned that your company has a pension. That has value. You get to spend a bunch of time goofing off in your job. That nice. Biut the new company is closer to home and may give you a bunch more money. That also has value. Tough decisions.

From other posters here, it seems like people jump ship for better deals more and more often. It used to be seen as a negative. I take it that is not so much the case anymore? When I used to hire associates, I was uncomfortable with those who went from job to job.

 

[riskadverse]

I found that sticking with a job paid off in the long run.  That's not to say I didn't threaten on every occasion - always gave my current boss as a reference when applying for a new job.   I also made an effort to make my position so crutial to the company, they would have a very difficult time without me.  It was all above board, I just made sure I developed systems that put my work at the center.  In the later years, I ended up being rewarded quite well.  The downside was it took a long time to undo and transfer my duties to others before I could retire gracefully. 

A number of my fellow cow-orkers jumped ship on every occasion.  A few were sucessfull, others ended up making a mistake on just one jump and ended up in a dead end.  You always knew when they called you for a job.

 

[lazyday]

The problem is the length of the URL extends beyond the width of my screen and I have to scroll left and right to read each post on the most recent 50.

Thanks.

REW

Not sure if this will help, but you could try to remove long links from a page using the Platypus extension in Firefox.

 

[Caroline]

Hey Lawrence:

I see that you posted on this topic back in April -- this has been eating at you for a while, methinks.  I get how frustrating this can be.

I remember explaining on this board at some point that I make exactly TWICE as much as a similarly-aged colleage of mine whose been at our company for 25 years, while I've been here only 4.  My job-hopping explains the difference -- she got 2-4% for the past 25 years, while I was able to negotiate 10% and 20% more at each move. 

A few things I'd add, and a few questions:

1. Are you still LEARNING anything on the job?  The paycheck is important, the pension is important, but career development is everything.  Job-hopping for its own sake isn't the point -- its the chance to shop the experience you've got, and to obtain more salable experience that are key to this decision. I never moved JUST for the money, but for the new responsibilities and experience.

2.  Having said that, have you asked for a promotion instead of just a raise?  Is there room for a smart, hardworking guy like you to move up?  Discussing opportunities with the boss vs asking for a raise is an easier conversation to have, oftentimes.  Positions you as enthusiastic and motivated vs "greedy and whining"  (from your bosses pt of view, that is.) If promotion isn't possible, are there special projects you can take on to expand your experience base, or a lateral move you could make to add to your capabilities?

3.  Are there in-kind bennies you could get instead of salary?  I mean company-paid classes, education, extra client experience?  Again, resume fodder is more valuable than money, sometimes.

4.  What industry are you working in?  You may have mentioned earlier -- sorry if I missed it.  And what do you do?  You might find that an entire industry move makes sense -- an IT guy working in a bank might make a lot more in the IT industry itself... (except not right now, of course! ;-D

5.  You're 30 years old, right?  The typical investment strategy at your age is to take on more risk than us older folks, because you have time to recover from the risks, and your rewards are better over the long term.  Same would be true of your career, I think.  It's risk vs reward.  If you take a risk with a move and it isn't right, you have time to recover.  If you don't take a risk, you get a lower reward. 

6.  Finally, I'd say again that raises compound.  A series of 4% raises adds up to a LOT less than a series of 6% raises over time.  Building to a higher salary quickly, vs slowly, will make a big difference in FIRE.

Good luck to you Lawrence.  Try to have the attitude that whatever you do will be the right thing for you at that time. 

Caroline

 

[nwsteve]

It used to be seen as a negative.  I take it that is not so much the case anymore?  When I used to hire associates, I was uncomfortable with those who went from job to job. 

Lawrence
Some solid feedback here including the above quote.  When I did Exec Search, the key in looking at a candidate job movement, is were they growing anything beyond their personal bank account.
You are early enough in your career, that movement in three years is expected.  But as others have pointed out, be sure you do a good job of fully defining the complete list of all aspects of your professional life and what you are looking to see in the next employer.  One thing I encourage you to do is plenty of good due-diligence to be sure  there is Solid evidence  that your new employer will offer professional development and reward for same.
Like Nords recommended, when you do get an offer, and it is what you want, do not look back and do not allow yourself to be countered by your current employer.  If they did not see your value before, they will have a short memory in the future
Good luck
nwsteve

 

[laurence]

Thanks, all, I've been at my current employer in one way or another for 5 years now, I think at my age that shows I'm not a mercenary.

I do have very specific things I want from my new job, so I expect my interview (if I get one) will be more two sided than the last time I went for a job. I am enjoying the luxury of knowing there is no urgency to move on, but knowing I don't want to get complacent and settle for good enough/boring, steady work. I'll update if I get a nibble.

 

[sgeeeee]

You'll never know if a job move is a good one. If after your decision things turn out good, they could have turned out better had you made the opposite decision. If they turn out bad, they could have turned out worse.

Promotions, increases in salary, etc. can be followed by long-term stagnation or worse.

Since the half-life of the typical corporate manager today is on the order of 12 to 18 months, you can't even make the decision based on how you get along with your current boss or think you'll get along with your new one.

At the end of the day, deciding whether to jump ship or not is a gut level decision. Make your decision and don't look back.

Good luck.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Thanks, all, I've been at my current employer in one way or another for 5 years now, I think at my age that shows I'm not a mercenary. 

I do have very specific things I want from my new job, so I expect my interview (if I get one) will be more two sided than the last time I went for a job.  I am enjoying the luxury of knowing there is no urgency to move on, but knowing I don't want to get complacent and settle for good enough/boring, steady work.  I'll update if I get a nibble.   

I believe I posted that I held 8 full time jobs (7 moves) until I quit. No regrets about any
move. Here are timelines and reason for departure:

1963-65 Better position and more $ (local move)
1965-73 Better position and more $ (local move)
1973-76 Quit over dispute with partners (moved out of state)
1976-79 Fired
1979-82 Lateral move for more desireable geographical location
1982-87 Fired
1987-90 Consulted full time
1990-93 Owned and ran small manufacturing company
1993 Semiretired

Over the 30 years I might have unemployed 2 months or so twice.
With unemployment comp. and severance pay I never had a complete
interruption in my income stream. The standard advice for unemployed
people is to treat the job search as your full time job. That's what I did.

JG

 

[brewer12345]

Laurence:

I made a move earlier this year and I have historically been willing to jump when I have felt I was undervauled or getting into a rut and not learning anything new. My most recent move was after three years in the same position at a firm that was paying out 1 and 2% raises amid record profits every year. There was no promotion opportunity and better pay was not forthcoming. I had been bored for a year and was ready to move on. I jumped to amuch riskier place to be, but in return for the risk I got:

- More money, although most of the juice is in the bonus (not guaranteed)
- More freedom, since I now work in a 7 person firm where everybody does a little of everything (nor corporate silos)
- The chance to learn very valuable skills that arre extremely marketable and lay the foundation for the next 10 years of my career

The downside is the risk that the job or the company could go poof! on a moment's notice, and longer hours. I felt the trade-offs were worth it, and my wife agreed. I likely won't do this more than a few years (burnout will be an issue long term), but it is well worth it in the meantime for both the money and the skills.

If you are ready to make a move (sounds like it to me, quite frankly), put a dollar value on your current total package (pay, benefits, intangibles, etc.). Then get out there and start marketing yourself.

 

[SteveR]

Company loyalty is dead! I gave the best years of my life, all 24 of them to one company and did all the required moves and was on a fast track until I hit the glass ceiling and my mentors left the company. I took ER from that company as part of a RIF and came out with a small pension and the promise of health insurance.

We moved and I took another job but for less money. But the cost of living is a bit lower so it was not that much of a hit especially since I started getting my pension early so the difference in pay is not that much.

This company has no pension, no retirement health insurance, and no retirement ownership of stock option grants. Their 401(k) is not too bad but that is all they have so leaving here will be easy after I get vested in Oct. Then I can pull the plug anytime I want.

Moving to a different job should be a very thought out decision. I like the old phrase "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't". I have found this to be true too many times. However, if the present job has no future for you financially, then the company you are working for will never reward you with money. Plaques and your picture in the newpaper will not put bread on the table or give you $$ to invest for your future. Follow the money but be sure you can live with the new company.

ER is about having the bucks and the mindset to get off the treadmill. My plan will spring into action in 24 months; or less. Have an exit strategy but in the meantime, get paid for what you do or learn to enjoy being used by your company.

 

[retire@40]

I don't know how people can put up with the worries of getting fired by your boss, having a bad boss, showing up to work when your boss tells you to, begging your boss for time off, asking your boss to leave early, asking your boss for a pay increase, and just knowing you are going through 1/3 of your life with a boss telling you what to do and how to do it.

Instead of worrying and complaining, just start your own business doing something you enjoy.  You may have some other problems, but nothing like the problems above.  My biggest problem in having my own business is that I put too many hours into it because I kept making more money the more clients I got.  Having your own business is like picking money off the floor.  At some point you just get tired of bending over to pick it up even though you see it laying in front of you.  The nice part about being self-employed is that you can cut down whenever you want or build up whenever you want.