Landlord will not return $10k security deposits

[51togo]

I’m trying to help my neighbor next to me as they are moving out next week. Background is upsetting because the husband told the wife that he found someone. It’s a big house where original owner remodeled from a single 4 bedrooms to a two stories 7 bedrooms 6 baths. Their rent was $5000 and recent years $8000. They been paying on time for the last decade. We are your typical neighbors, not hanging out or close but respect each others space and privacy. When I retired 12 years ago, I helped babysit my grandsons and now they are the same age as their youngest kids so I practically watch their 4 kids from two college bound to high school and middle schoolers growing up as well. She reminds me of “Home Alone” Kevin’s mom. Always on the go, energetic, great neighbors. We are saddened!
She told me that the landlord will not return the deposits due pool fencing rusting and other deteriorations. And although she’ll need the money now working two jobs but she’s not the confrontational type so going to forget about it and move on. From my perspective, seems so unfair the house was poorly build as I watch it tear down to just the foundation and rebuild to save cost. There’s always contractors there for the roof leaks and they have black moles. In my opinion the house is in good condition just some neglected maintenance from the owner. Nevertheless, I did some research and these are her rights. I’ve no experience on income property nor as a renter. Any additional advices?

1. In California under small claim court for up to $12.5k. So upon 21 days passed she for $10k.
2. Send out demand letter at final walk thru if landlord’s position stands.
3. Find an attorney and once deposits is not returned, sue for 2x $10k per Ca law and is that total of $20k or $30k while attorney will get 40%.
Thank you for your input in advance I

 

[Sunset]

Who is actually on the lease, maybe it's the hubby, so wife can skip last months rent and move. Hubby will be on the hook.

For step 2) I'd use an attorney paying for the demand letter , as just that might make the landlord pay up so don't want to lose out on 40%. Could use a diff lawyer for step 3, so pick a cheap one for step 2

 

[cathy63]

Who is actually on the lease, maybe it's the hubby, so wife can skip last months rent and move. Hubby will be on the hook.

California is a community property state, so most likely the wife is equally liable for rent debt incurred during the marriage even if she didn't sign the lease herself. If the divorce was final before the final month's rent was due and she's not on the lease, then she might have an argument.

L.A. has various legal orgs that will help with tenants' rights. I suspect a $10K case might be higher than their usual range, but they should be able to refer her to a lawyer who would do a free consultation to determine whether she has a case.

 

[Exchme]

That's what small claims court is for. Have her take pictures of everything. The deposit and any damages beyond the security deposit will likely be a marital asset (or liability), so belongs to both husband and wife.

 

[surprising]

First check the contract to see what the landlord has explicitly stated the tenant can be charged for. If it lists pool fence rusting then your out of luck. But, that one does seem suspicious, as I can't imagine how one would actively prevent fences from rusting.

Generally landlord can charge for things that are not normal wear and tear. I had a tenant move out after 10 years and the place was pretty bad. Carpet had deep stains that is not wear and tear, so we charged to repair it. It is non smoking but it is clear someone smoked heavily in one bedroom, so we charged for smoke abatement (which didn't work and still smells). They punctured a drain pipe when hanging a picture on a wall. It didn't leak until they moved, when I noticed water coming out of the bottom of the wall. The list goes on. We took their entire deposit, which was nowhere near what it took to get it fixed for the next tenant. They too tried to threaten to take us to court, but never followed through.

 

[OldShooter]

In our state the tenant is not responsible for normal wear and tear. IMO IANAL black mold, pool fencing, and roof leaks are normal wear and tear. Read the lease carefully. then I suggest that she hire the attorney and delegate all the hassles to him. Peace and quiet for her and she will probably win a judgment besides.

 

[Dtail]

Normal wear and tear. Possibly could have been documented along the way, but in hindsight now.

 

[engineernerd]

As you say, the landlord has 21 days after move-out to give the tenant his/her/their written accounting and whatever remains of the security deposit, so no legal action can be started before then but if it seems pretty clear the "damage" cited so far by the landlord is not the tenant's fault but rather normal wear and tear (or caused by poor landlord maintenance) then she would do well to say so, calmly, as a way of warning him she will not be a pushover. It might cause him to change his mind, thus heading off the whole problem with minimal effort.

To motivate her a bit, you could mention that if the landlord sends her the accounting and she doesn't handle it well, that would give her husband (ex-husband?) an opportunity to demand his half of the foregone security deposit come out of her share of the divorce settlement. Maybe he wouldn't get it, but who needs the aggravation.

According to this website: How to Sue in Small Claims Court – Consumer & Business she and hubby have probably 4 years but certainly no less than 2 years to file in small claims court, so it can wait until she is settled in her new place and has a bit more time.

But I think she should respond in writing to the landlord's written accounting fairly soon after receiving it, so she can later show she tried to solve the problem promptly without suing, giving the landlord every chance to get it right. So she can adjust her halo in court later

 

[51togo]

Who is actually on the lease, maybe it's the hubby, so wife can skip last months rent and move. Hubby will be on the hook.

For step 2) I'd use an attorney paying for the demand letter , as just that might make the landlord pay up so don't want to lose out on 40%. Could use a diff lawyer for step 3, so pick a cheap one for step 2

@Sunset not sure who is on the lease but she’s the man of the house so to speak ie setting up everything from pool cleaning to pest control etc. likely she is or both. However, he had already moved out once he announced the news to her.

 

[51togo]

First check the contract to see what the landlord has explicitly stated the tenant can be charged for. If it lists pool fence rusting then your out of luck. But, that one does seem suspicious, as I can't imagine how one would actively prevent fences from rusting.

Generally landlord can charge for things that are not normal wear and tear. I had a tenant move out after 10 years and the place was pretty bad. Carpet had deep stains that is not wear and tear, so we charged to repair it. It is non smoking but it is clear someone smoked heavily in one bedroom, so we charged for smoke abatement (which didn't work and still smells). They punctured a drain pipe when hanging a picture on a wall. It didn't leak until they moved, when I noticed water coming out of the bottom of the wall. The list goes on. We took their entire deposit, which was nowhere near what it took to get it fixed for the next tenant. They too tried to threaten to take us to court, but never followed through.

Good to know as the emotional state would not be overridden by whatever written on the lease, thanks!

 

[51togo]

As you say, the landlord has 21 days after move-out to give the tenant his/her/their written accounting and whatever remains of the security deposit, so no legal action can be started before then but if it seems pretty clear the "damage" cited so far by the landlord is not the tenant's fault but rather normal wear and tear (or caused by poor landlord maintenance) then she would do well to say so, calmly, as a way of warning him she will not be a pushover. It might cause him to change his mind, thus heading off the whole problem with minimal effort.

To motivate her a bit, you could mention that if the landlord sends her the accounting and she doesn't handle it well, that would give her husband (ex-husband?) an opportunity to demand his half of the foregone security deposit come out of her share of the divorce settlement. Maybe he wouldn't get it, but who needs the aggravation.

According to this website: How to Sue in Small Claims Court – Consumer & Business she and hubby have probably 4 years but certainly no less than 2 years to file in small claims court, so it can wait until she is settled in her new place and has a bit more time.

But I think she should respond in writing to the landlord's written accounting fairly soon after receiving it, so she can later show she tried to solve the problem promptly without suing, giving the landlord every chance to get it right. So she can adjust her halo in court later

That’s good advise… I watch the house in the last 40 years, the current landlord is young mid forties got the house from the divorce settlement after the husband’s infidelity. Prior owners also moved due to cheating affairs. I think the time to settle down is worthy of the emotional drain of the deposit but plant ahead as $10k is no small change either.

 

[jazz4cash]

Probably more to this story. A rusting pool fence would not be tenants responsibility, would it? I would think it’s a huge liability for the landlord if it’s deteriorated.

 

[Running_Man]

If you lived there for years and did not report roof leaks or that the pool fence was rusting and needed repairs the owner can claim negligence on the part of the tenant. Can't really understand the statement as it says it was both a great house and a tear down but poorly built. If they have documentation of reporting any issues that is good backup, if they did not report anything over 10 years they are going to have difficulty getting that deposit back.

 

[51togo]

If you lived there for years and did not report roof leaks or that the pool fence was rusting and needed repairs the owner can claim negligence on the part of the tenant. Can't really understand the statement as it says it was both a great house and a tear down but poorly built. If they have documentation of reporting any issues that is good backup, if they did not report anything over 10 years they are going to have difficulty getting that deposit back.

So clarifications on good house as in excellent neighborhood and difficult to find a 7 bed/6ba 5k sq ft house 3 cars garage for $5k with 5 drivers including a MIL plenty of parkings. Bad house with the remodel to two stories in 1997 still the same roof, starting to see contractors try to fix the roof last five years. The orange tile roof is very steep and seems very unsafe when I see these guys climbing up and change a few tiles here and there. The house needs some professional contractors so far just handymen. These were the landlord’s contractors, she reported the leaks and got moles in the cosets. So she does have documentations on the repair visits, official mole reports, and kids doctor visit due to the moles on occasion respiratory issues.

 

[Running_Man]

Probably more to this story. A rusting pool fence would not be tenants responsibility, would it? I would think it’s a huge liability for the landlord if it’s deteriorated

So clarifications on good house as in excellent neighborhood and difficult to find a 7 bed/6ba 5k sq ft house 3 cars garage for $5k with 5 drivers including a MIL plenty of parkings. Bad house with the remodel to two stories in 1997 still the same roof, starting to see contractors try to fix the roof last five years. The orange tile roof is very steep and seems very unsafe when I see these guys climbing up and change a few tiles here and there. The house needs some professional contractors so far just handymen. These were the landlord’s contractors, she reported the leaks and got moles in the cosets. So she does have documentations on the repair visits, official mole reports, and kids doctor visit due to the moles on occasion respiratory issues.

Well she has a very strong case then!

 

[pb4uski]

I think she should be very aggressive given that the landlord has already told her that she will not return her $10k security deposit.

If it were me I would tell her that rust on the fencing is normal wear and tear and that she will not stand for any of her security deposit being used for that.

Unless your friend has already paid the last months rent, don't given the landlord's attitude. The landlord can take the last month rent out of the security deposit.

Like many things in life, the OPs friend will only get what she insists on. It's time to play hardball as it seems like the landlady intends to take advantage of the situation.

ETA: Think of it as a preemptive shot across the landlord's bow saying don't screw with me.

 

[mystang52]

Landlord not wanting to return security depost is not exactly a rare event. See last paragraph in reply #8, by engineernerd. It heartily gets my "approval." To wit, she should respond to landlord in writing. It sure looks like the landlord is trying a bully tactic, so replying quickly sets the stage for any small claims court issue later.

ETA pb4uski gives great advice as well, here.

 

[Texas Proud]

I watch a lot of the judges shows... the big thing is to take pictures to prove you case... hopefully they have pics when they move in...

Also, if they are tearing down the house then normal wear and tear are a non issue... IOW, if it were perfect and you are tearing it down then why does it matter it is rusty now...

Last... who was responsible for the items? I would think the landlord is responsible for any painting for anything on the property...

California is very liberal and lean the renters way... I have seen many cases where the people just stay and force them to evict which takes a LONG time or pay them to leave... plus return deposit..

 

[engineernerd]

A couple of posters here have suggested not paying the last month's rent. I don't specifically know the California (and L.A.) law, but this practice is heavily frowned on in most landlord-tenant laws. I do not think that would be a good idea at all.

 

[sengsational]

When I moved out of anywhere (in my younger days), I made sure I was present at the walkthrough. I made sure I knew each thing they planned on charging me for. And I called BS on most of it, right there in the walkthrough, and didn't get charged.

Landlords will take as much as they think they can get away with...you gotta be ready to get rough and tumble or they'll walk all over you.

 

[pjigar]

I am a landlord. In state of Texas, we can use deposit for damages, past due rents, fines, etc. But not for regular wear and tear. Rust would fall in wear and tear category.

 

[engineernerd]

That’s good advise… I watch the house in the last 40 years, the current landlord is young mid forties got the house from the divorce settlement after the husband’s infidelity. Prior owners also moved due to cheating affairs. I think the time to settle down is worthy of the emotional drain of the deposit but plant ahead as $10k is no small change either.

Ugh, sounds like the landlady might be flaky. That puts a different spin on things. One thing your neighbor should know, if she doesn't already, is that winning in court only gives her a piece of paper saying the landlord owes the money. If the landlord refuses to pay, then your neighbor would probably need the help of a lawyer to actually get the money. That said, small claims court seems like a low-outlay effort so why not at least do that and see what happens.

 

[Slim11]

Take pictures, you probably will not need a lawyer. Look for guides put out by the state that lists landlord and Tennant rights. Rust isnt something someone can cause by themselves. What else is in the letter of withholding matters. Look up normal ware and tare vs the time spent in the rental. May be in here https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0t0xUP0r_yIP4WD6xgsPan
If its anything like NJ , painting and cleaning is usally under the landlords dime. ( unless its overly messy, think disposal of items) In court if you have pictures, and prove its normal ware in tare over a decade, you will win the case.

 

[CO-guy]

When I moved out of anywhere (in my younger days), I made sure I was present at the walkthrough. I made sure I knew each thing they planned on charging me for. And I called BS on most of it, right there in the walkthrough, and didn't get charged.

Landlords will take as much as they think they can get away with...you gotta be ready to get rough and tumble or they'll walk all over you.

Bingo! The OP is sharing info second hand, doesn't know who's on the lease, or exactly what damages are being claimed.

Regardless of all of those items, if they landlord communicated that they're not returning the deposit in writing (email or otherwise), then your friend should demand a full accounting. If they fail to return the deposit or provide an accounting, they should then immediately file a claim against the landlord. My suggestion would be to (in writing) demand a full accounting and make it clear that if the full deposit, less any agreed upon damages, aren't returned within 21 days, a claim will be filed.

That written demand is legally meaningless, but may scare the landlord.

A couple of posters here have suggested not paying the last month's rent. I don't specifically know the California (and L.A.) law, but this practice is heavily frowned on in most landlord-tenant laws. I do not think that would be a good idea at all.

Several months after my friends and I moved into a rental home in grad school, two former tenants stopped by one evening to inform us that the owner had refused to return their deposit. They had filed and won a small claim, but were struggling to collect since the owner did not live in the United States.

We took that information on-board, lived in the house for 2 years, and 60 days before our lease ended, we stopped paying rent. The owner contacted us on the 5th of that month, and I responded with a PDF of the legal judgement against him from the previous tenants and a clear message that our final 2 months would come from our deposit.

Oh, and a few months after we moved out, my friends and I stopped by our old place and had a nice conversation with the new tenants.

 

[pb4uski]

... Also, if they are tearing down the house then normal wear and tear are a non issue... IOW, if it were perfect and you are tearing it down then why does it matter it is rusty now......

Great point that the tenant can make to the landlord. Looks like a money grab by the landlord to me.