Moolah

[citrine]

Barbarus:

I once got this bit of advice from someone...."If you are not able to save on the salary that you have, what makes you think that more money will help you save?"
I haven't broken the $50K as of yet, I have a BA and an Associates in Business....but I put 25% of my salary pre tax into my 401K before I pay any bills. ER is my one major goal and I will cut back in other areas to ensure that I have enough for my investments. LBYM has to become a life habit for one to be able to retire early....just like eating healthy and regular exercise is needed to lose weight.

 

[ndfmnlf]

Hi,

A neurosurgeon I know clears $500k a year...but also works 60-hour weeks, has been divorced twice, and been sued at least twice. An anesthesiologist-friend was making close to this until the Grim Reaper took him away last year at age 60 by way of a myocardial infarction. If you check the licensing agencies of your state, you'll see many medical professionals being disciplined or losing their licenses for various infractions...many from drug addiction/alcoholism. The point is that the above-$100K paying careers are high stress....they take a toll on your body and mind. This is the tradeoff you have to be willing to accept. I am 10 years out of residency training myself and I hope I won't have to do this for 10 years more. I look forward to the day when my investment portfolio will do all the hard work for me.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

A neurosurgeon I know clears $500k a year...but also works 60-hour weeks, has been divorced twice, and been sued at least twice. An anesthesiologist-friend was making close to this until the Grim Reaper took him away last year at age 60 by way of a myocardial infarction. If you check the licensing agencies of your state, you'll see many medical professionals being disciplined or losing their licenses for various infractions...many from drug addiction/alcoholism. The point is that the above-$100K paying careers are high stress....they take a toll on your body and mind. This is the tradeoff you have to be willing to accept. I am 10 years out of residency training myself and I hope I won't have to do this for 10 years more. I look forward to the day when my investment portfolio will do all the hard work for me.

True enough, and points worth emphasizing.

But it may be a little more complicated than that. I'm 58 y old, 28 years out of residency (and 18 years since my debts were gone). I am ready to retire to a part-time life. "Problem" is that my job is a source of great satisfaction as well as stress and intrusion on the nonwork side of who I am. For me it's about balance, and less like an on-off switch.

I'm hoping for part-time shortly, but would probably work for free if the hours, liability exposure, and productivity issues can be put in order.

 

[Martha]

FIREs are blessed in one way or another. Maybe with personalities that enabled them to live disciplined lives, or to be entrepreneurial, or to gun for the well paying job. Many are highly intelligent with good decision making abilities (common sense).

There is an element of selfishness as after all, our money is not given all away and at a point, we don't want to work. Though many do volunteer.

Not everyone can retire early and not everyone wants to retire early. But everyone can better themselves.

 

[W2R]

Also in the envelope a few old canceled checks, one for DW's wedding ring, $435.

I can beat you on that one. My wedding ring cost $20 in 1975, in Meridian, Mississippi. Although very thin, it was real gold and didn't turn my finger green, either! My engagement ring was passed down to me from my grandmother, so it didn't cost anything.

That $20 ring set lasted 23 years, until our divorce. Better than some.

 

[Coach]

What's the disconnect? Where did you guys get your tickets for the gravy train? Where are the maps to Fat City being distributed. What sort of employers are willing to make with the big sponduliks?

barbarus, I probably could have gotten one of those tickets, but the price seemed too high. So I stayed in the same job and city for, so far, 25 years. I'll never get to a six figure income, but I commute three miles to work, rarely put in much more than 40 hours in a week, live in a perfectly comfortable house worth around $125K, have two cars, a '91 and a '01. I'll retire within a year with a modest, comfortable income. I made choices that I'm happy with in retrospect. I have friends who seem as happy as I am who made completely different choices.

Coach

 

[FinanceGeek]

I don't think there is one set way to do it, as others have said income is only meaningful when compared against cost of living. $100k does not qualify one to be "rich" in Sillycon Valley or NYC, but $10k would do so in the third world (ever wonder why so many white collar jobs are moving overseas?).

 

[old woman]

I only make 50K on my job but I live well below my means and now investments are paying off. Between what I save and my investment income my portfolio is increasing about 50K since Jan 1. 3K was a 401K profit sharing and 30K was investment income. But I live pretty well on what I have left after savings. My boyfriend/roommate gives me money and pays for things for me sometimes because I am poor and he makes about 75K as a longshoreman. My house has appreciated 14K in the past year so I don't need to change anything to have my net worth grow up to 100K per year on a 50K salary. My work is pretty easy and low stress so going makes sense until I can get SS then I will arrange to live on SS and roommate paying me rent money and my investment income will be for lifestyle improvements.

 

[unclemick]

Once apon a time when I was young - like er the 1950's - I thought from observation - it was education , not $ that was required for a successful retirement - teachers knew how to save and invest(cause they were smart, no GEICO jokes please) and everybody else got a company pension and SS.

Also Doctors and Longshoremen could afford to buy timberland and farmland as a tax dodge.

heh heh heh - how times change.

 

[CybrMike]

I have a different philosophy/perspective than many on this board, so let me share.

Ever since I was about 16 years old I wanted to be financially independent, and I didn't want to have to wait until I was 65 to get there. I knew that probably the only way I could do that was to start a business (become an entrepreneur).

So, basically I have been starting businesses since I was 16 hoping 1 would strike gold.

When I was 22 I started a dot-com that did strike gold. Although most would classify me as FI ($5M+), and I am extremely grateful for the luck that I have had, I am still keeping my eyes open for more business opportunities in the hopes that lightning may strike twice.

I never really cared about a "job" or a "salary", nor did I want to work for someone else my entire life.

Anyways, I realize that this diverges greatly from the common theme here on the board, i.e. work hard, work long, LBYM, save, save, save. Just thought another perspective might be valuable.

 

[haha]

Also, Salary is subject to basic supply/demand economics. Sometimes people wind up (luck) in careers that are higher paying. For example IT seems to be a fairly hot field. People tend to make a high salary. That supply demand imbalance will not last forever.

Maybe not for IT, but it will for good thinking programmers who are willing to keep up their skills with the newer languages.

This job takes a lot of brains, an understanding of structure,and very good attention to detail, plus the willingness and stamina to put everything aside and really work non-stop.

Oh yeah, it helps if others beside yourself can tell that you are speaking English.

These traits don't grow on trees.

Ha

 

[barbarus]

Barbarus doffs his chapeau and bows in gratitude to all who have responded. This is exactly the sort of information I seek. Most official sources of data on salaries are unmitigated stool. Be it the BLS, institutions of higher education, corporations or a dozen other sources, private and governmental, most "official" info on j*bs is a damnable lie.

I hope that a salary discussion is not to far afield from the stated focus of this forum, but thanks for your stories. Please keep them coming. In fact, can anyone recommend a site or blog where people discuss this very topic?

One of the great truisms of high salaries is that almost everyone that achieves them puts in a lot of time and hard work. They are not handed easy money on a silver platter. However, join Barbarus in shedding a tear for the legions of w*rkers who work equally hard, play by the rules and end up going nowhere.

By the way, for those interested, Barbarus mightily admires those who live below there means. It has been a natural sentiment for B., who has always lived his life that way.
In fact (and I mean no hyperbole by this statement) even the most ardent LBYMer here at ERF would be appaled at starkness of the Barbarian lifestyle.

I would like to post some variations on this theme if there is interest and please keep posting your own tales.

 

[Martha]

By the way, for those interested, Barbarus mightily admires those who live below there means. It has been a natural sentiment for B., who has always lived his life that way.
In fact (and I mean no hyperbole by this statement) even the most ardent LBYMer here at ERF would be appaled at starkness of the Barbarian lifestyle.

Oh, there are a few here could give you a run for your money. Khan?

 

[Wags]

Truly Blessed

I spend 26 yrs 10 mos and 10 days in the government as a military member and DAC (Army) civilian and my top salary was about $57K. We moved from NJ to Texas.

The cons that the pay was not great and sometimes had to things that I did not agree with or want to to. But the pros outweighted the cons. For example
-traveled all over the world on government expense
-lived in the Middle East
-loved my jobs
-got paid to have FUN (happens when you love what you are doing)
-experienced many diverse cultures, customs and individuals
-retired at 48 in 2006 so that I could spend time with my kids, wife and moved to TX to take care of my mother (passed away the day I left NJ), my father, and grandmother.
-met my wife in South Korea and have 5 children
-allowed to serve as an advocate for the rights of persons with disabilities
-lived my childhood dream of servicing my country

We chose to invest our $$$ and time in our family
-sent my wife to school
-my wife is a third degree blackbelt and all my kids are blackbelts
-children have taken ballet, Taewondo, and currently are taking piano
classes.
-saved my $$$$ and paid cash for a house and a 2007 Truck
-we walk our children to the bus stop in the morning and are at the bus stop in afternoon when they come home.

We spend our retirement
-doing what we want
-attending church,
-attending our children's school activites (basketball, cross country, baseball, school plays, awards presentations, etc...etc.....)
-taking care of my father and grandmother
-taking short trips
-doing charity work

We feel blessed as a family because we have everything that we need and more then what we deserve. GOD has blessed me with a family, health and happiness.

GOD BLESS

 

[heyyou]

Barbarus- I worked a blue collar job for 30 years. I retired with a small paid-off home in a rural area. I think I'm doing great since my portfolio is 22 multiples of my almost livable, no-COLA pension. People living in coastal, urban areas would snicker at my numbers. The not-secret path to retirement consists of investing your savings from Living Below Your Means (LBYM). You make your luck by perservering when following a good strategy through good and bad market cycles.
Here, we have tall fences to keep out the riff-raff. Sometimes, they are noisy all night, e.g. closing the gates to keep the elk out, and the coyotes howl most nights. Behind our house is a national forest, not an ocean, but this college dropout couldn't afford beachfront property.
Joe

 

[Caroline]

However, join Barbarus in shedding a tear for the legions of w*rkers who work equally hard, play by the rules and end up going nowhere.

Sign me up. Every time I hear a news story about people's pensions going away, or drive past a broiling field full of farmworkers, I think how lucky I was to stumble onto the opportunities I got along the way.

 

[Bigritchie]

It is not how much you make, it is how much you save/invest.

That being said, this thread really makes me crave gravy and biscuits! Man I miss my sweet cooking grandmother :-(

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

i had never considered f.i. nor r.e. until it happened while i was just minding my own business and living my own life. lots of school. lots of work. lots & lots of fun. worked construction early on and saved up enough to buy a house when i got injured pretty bad and had to spend all my money during recovery.

went back to school, got a degree in communication and started working for newspapers as a total flunky at age 28 earning all of $6/hour. i was on the road to riches.

wound up with fortune 5 company winning every award they had to offer but, just as i'm about to climb the corporate ladder, mom's alzheimer's disease starts kicking in. knowing i would eventually inherit, i nixed the corporate climb to be here for mom (who i otherwise would have dragged with me, but this way she could continue enjoying her life as long as possible). i rose as far as i could in the company without leaving the area, never making more than ~$55k including benefits.

i saved up more money and managed to purchase a house in crack town about 6 years before the bubble began. i worked with the city on the code enforcement board and others to help bring up the standard of living here. we would eventually be written up on the front page of the ny times as having the greatest gains of any area in the country.

i quit what had become a very stressful job two years before mom died so i could spend more time with her and so i'd have at least 20 good years for myself before i might develop a.d.

during that time real estate crashed and so it turns out i inherited only enough to continue my e.r. if i sell my house & live overseas for a few years. actually i could continue to live as i live now but i want to build up the reserves some for a later life of boating. my life is so good i can hardly look at this downturn as misfortune. i see it as an opportunity to turn my life into an adventure. i will have to suffer playing with baby lions in south africa and helping to feed baby elephants in thailand. this so called downturn is putting me on a path that will fullfill every wish i've had ever since i was a little kid. instead of watching national geographic, i will be living it. i will make myself a wonderful life regardless of what situation i find myself in. i'm just that type of guy.

i don't care that others have more money than me. it doesn't matter one bit. in fact, almost everyone i know has more than i do. almost all my close friends earn 6 figures. and all of them still complain about their jobs. i'm done.

 

[DblDoc]

What's the disconnect? Where did you guys get your tickets for the gravy train? Where are the maps to Fat City being distributed. What sort of employers are willing to make with the big sponduliks?

I don't get it.

Heres one "map" for the >100K/yr crowd...

Go to college for 5 years and get a B.S.
Go back to College 6 years and get a PhD
Go to Medical school for 4 years and get an M.D.
Do a Residency for 4 years
Take Board Exam and get Board Certified in Emergency Medicine
Find a job in late 30's and start paying back all those loans
Spend a few years trying to keep up with the Jones' until you "see the light"
LBYM and start socking it away for retirement and hope you don't burn out before you reach your goal, die or reach 65

There are many ways to FIRE and short of inheriting it all none are going to be easy

 

[novaman]

What's the disconnect? Where did you guys get your tickets for the gravy train? Where are the maps to Fat City being distributed. What sort of employers are willing to make with the big sponduliks?

I don't get it.

How does the ticket get punched??

DW and myself are both children of immigrants. Dad came here with $80 in his pocket, rudimentary language skills...worked his butt off to eventually get a phd and give our family a decent but modest life......inlaws struggled mightily to raise 5 kids, at one point all 7 of them were living in a 1 bedroom apt until they got evicted.....we both knew what its like to be without, and appreciate the opportunities that abound in this country for those who are willing to work.

-after high school I went right to work in the summers, forgoing the vacations and fun to help earn my keep cuz I saw how hard my dad worked

-graduated from college in 3 years magna cum laude, working every summer rather than vacationing.

-went to dental school on my own dime. Again either working or going to school every summer.

-got my DDS, got married and within a year bought my own practice

-continued to live like poor college students for 7 more years after that. Working my tail off to become a great dentist and to pay off my school loans and practice loans.

- Am I making big bucks now? Yes. Did I have to work hard for it? Yes. Was it easy? NO. Did I give up a lot to get here? Yes. I didn't even buy my first car until I was 28 yrs old. I never took any NICE vacations in the early days... the first nice one we took was after I had my practice for 5 years and my son was 3 yrs old.... We kept the same junkie furniture that we had from college and added hand me downs and cast offs to furnish our home.

Life is great, and really when you look at it, has always been good, but when people see this fat cat and his gravy train, they need to see the dumpster this cat came from first.

and speaking of dumpsters, my first job involved in part loading trash into dumpsters, crawling through them to unjam them at times.

 

[Delawaredave5]

One in which wage slaves who hold bachelors, if not graduate, degrees will never, no matter what they do, break $50K per annum. Some would look at hitting $40K as a bonanza!
I'm including folks with technical and scientific degrees too.

I think the majority of posters on this board "worked hard for what they got" and probably take exception to comments like "Fat City" and "Gravy Train".

But I do agree with your "college educated wage slave" observation.

Globalization has wiped out America's blue collar middle class - radically depressing wages and reducing benefits for less skilled labor.

I think the same strain is coming for "college educated white collar middle class". US colleges are cranking out gobs of degrees. Tons of US white collar functions are "off-shorable".

Combination of increase in supply of college degrees and reduction in demand due to offshoring and white collar productivity increases is going to pur a lot of pressure on "generic bachelor degree" white collar aspirations.

 

[queeneev]

Wow, this thread is immensely cathartic and empowering to me!

I have always always felt pooh-poohed by the people in my life whom I mention my plan to f.i.r.e. YEAH RIGHT, and GOOD LUCK, they say.

(here's a secret, Barbarus...they are fools.)

They either think I am disgruntled at having to work (which I am ), or I must have some mathematical oversights in my budget (which I have examined and re-examined for the last 19 years...financial over-analysis is a HOBBY to me, and seems to be a litmus around here of a true pre-f.i.r.e. candidate). My first "salary" was $24,500 in 1989 at the age of 27. I was flat broke and exhausted from swimming upstream. That exhuastion compelled me to make a vow to retire at 40. I opened up a spreadsheet on my first day at the job, and created a retirement budget. Forty came and went without being f.i.r.e.d, but the having the goal got me in the right direction. I am "this close" right now at 46, all founded on a wage.

Someone above said that those who make over $100,000 pay a price. Couldn't be truer. I broke $100k 3 years ago, and wouldn'tcha know it, my quality of life has had a vacuous sucking sound for....3 years. I average 300 - 350 hour of overtime a year and have "responsibilities" that penetrate my sleep, my driving, my gardening, my long runs (when I have time and energy to do them). Interesting thing for me is that my work has come Full Circle - I am once again exhausted. A good sign to ponder firing.

Reading everyone's story affirms to me that my WILD&CRAZY belief that I could retire early on just a wage was NOT so crazy after all, and by golly, there are masses of us out there.

It's a Nice Little Secret, don't you think?

Don't be resentful, B, be grateful you know how to make it work. Make a plan, and believe in it.

 

[2B]

Further, the general tenor seems to be that if that j*b is lost, a few weeks or possibly months will result in w*rk of comparable pay. Maybe even more.

I was and am one of those "six figure" types. Unfortunately, life doesn't always smile upon us all the time. I do believe that people make a lot of their own good or bad luck.

I lost my barely over $100K job in 2002. I was out of work for about 16 months if you don't count substitute teaching. I then got very lucky and found a position paying about 2/3 of what I was making. It was a boring j*b but I got to discover this forum amongst others where I figured out I had enough to FIRE if DW would be happy at a significantly lower but still very nice lifestyle.

After almost two years of my new j*b, I got a call from the father of one of my daughter's college suite-mates. He wanted to know if I thought I could do engineering work with his company. That got me a position that pays safely in the six figures with no where near the stress of my pre-2002 position. Sometimes dumb luck and a booming E&C business works out. This will be my last j*b and I'll be here until my in-laws pass on.

What did I do to get "six figures?" I wanted to be a chemist but decided that the chemical engineering duties sounded more interesting when I was applying for college. Being good in math and science is probably the best way to make a decent salary for a "wage slave." I've often billed engineering as a way for a mediocre performer to have an upper-middle class lifestyle. Good salesmen and people with a talent for starting a business can make much better money.

The most important thing is LBYM. My DW expects a retirement equal or close to our pre-retirement lifestyle and I don't want to suddenly have to live in a box under the freeway overpass either. If I made $50K, she wouldn't know any difference and have lower expectations. If I made $250K, she'd expect even more than what she expects now. It's all in how you do your personal finances. I know people doing very well on $50K that are saving for an early retirement. I also know people that can't make it on more than I'm making. They don't have a prayer of retiring with anywhere near their current lifestyle no matter how long they w*rk.

 

[kcowan]

I will skip the details but focus on some key decisions that made ER possible:
- got a Masters degree to stand out from the crowd
- of four good job offers, picked the company with the highest margins and best growth potential
- shifted into sales after 3 years and remained on commission for 15 years including sales management and corporate management
- took ER with immediate DB pension while still in my 40s
- switched spouses and added another 5 years of working
- did management consulting and also 2 CEO assignments
- after divorce, decided to rent and manage own portfolio
- adopted a "buy and hold" individual stocks investment approach (still up 14% YTD as of Friday)
- ERd 5 years ago, LBYM only since retiring
- do regular home swaps for selected vacations - working amazingly well

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I've often billed engineering as a way for a mediocre performer to have an upper-middle class lifestyle.

Aw, now you've let the cat out of the bag, 2B.

2B and I are in the same business. It swings between the rails. Some years there are 5 engineers for each job and some years 5 jobs for each engineer. This is a good year so far. The second smartest thing I ever did was to start early putting 10% of my income into a savings plan (long before 401Ks). I wanted to do 15% but couldn't sell it to the wife.

I gross better than $100k but I have high expenses, high taxes and high living expenses. I live out of a suitcase and go wherever in the world I can sell my skills. Nobody pays my expenses; it all comes out of my gross. I am paying off my debts now (did not used to be very good at good at LBYM) instead of adding to my retirement pot. It is growing faster than I could add to it anyway.

I would say that the easy parts are getting a good degree (or training) and saving (go for 15%). The tough part in the middle is finding a good-paying job. I found a business that was booming and focused on getting marketable experience as fast as I could. Make up your mind to move. Go where the opportunities are; they will not come to you. I have to keep moving. Fortune favours the prepared mind. Make your own luck.