Need Some Sage Advice

[mystang52]

No words of wisdom from me for this situation, but only one modest suggestion to OP: is it feasible to send the son groceries (i.e., actual groceries vs money) so he has something to eat, but do not give him anything else?

 

[pb4uski]

Even with a trust, someone has to dole out the money...

But there are professional trustees for hire who have no problem being strict.

 

[Speculator]

Hello All,

I am reaching out because I know some of you may have experienced what my wife and I are going through. I have been fully retired since Feb 2022. Retired at 63. I am also retired Air Force. We have three children and for the most part, 2 of the 3 are doing well with their careers. Then there is that one child who just can't make the right decisions. He is a collge grad who chooses to work in a restaurant and has not used his degree for anything. As a child he went through periods of anxiety that we did notice or were unaware of. He asks for advice but never heeds or listens to any. He doesn't make enough money to pay his bills and we have gotten him out of many financial messes by paying his rent, utilties and food. We have voiced our thoughts on his situation. To no avail. The last time we paid his rent, I made the decision that it would be the last time. We can't keep helping when he makes mistakes. He is 39 years old and has no retirement. No savings. No car. No property. Nothing. He is in no better shape than when he graduated from high school. He is in debt and we just found out that he is going to be evicted. My wife and I told him that the last time we paid his rent would be the last time. This was about 2-3 months ago. So today I sit with a broken heart because my son is one day short of living on the streets.

We have offered to let him stay with us so that he could pay down his debt which also consists of student loans. We offered this twice. The idea was for him to take all his earnings and apply them to his debt. He did not take us up on this option becasue he did not want to live under our rules. How do you tell someone they have issues and that they need to get help that we offered to pay for? He has drug and alcohol issues and lies when we ask if he is doing drugs/alcohol. He moved from Austin to San Antonio because he was also evicted there. He goes through jobs frequently and when you ask him, it is always someone else's fault. The restaurant owner, the manager, the head server, the kitchen. He doesn't realize that in each instance he is the common denominator. He is the problem.

So what to do? We can't keep enabling him and yet we feel like crap because we can easily pay his rent with stipulations that he never follows. He has no girlfriend and has never been married. I am torn as is my wife. No one wants this for their child. It has become so bad that I await a phone call notifying me of the worse that could happen. He has no relationship with us nor his brother or sister. We always thought that of the three kids, he would be the most sucessful. This did not happen.

So I ask those of you who may have gone through this, what do you do? I have reached the end of my rope and can not bring myself to get him out of another jam. I just can't. How do you help someone who doesn't help themselves? As a parent you always want your kids to succeed. To do better than you. How can I get him to do this?

Are there any agencies or programs that he may go to get help? Due to his age, I can't force him to get help. We are lost and sad.

Thank you all for getting to the end of my story. I just feel that someone mighthave something to share with us. TIA.

If it were me, I would continue to help him out as much as you can, as difficult as that may be. I'd keep my heart, wallet and line of communication open, and continue to try to convince him to help himself, perhaps even suggesting he see an LCSW for talk therapy. Believe me, if things ever get really bad, you'll be glad you were there for him when you could be.

 

[Teacher Terry]

So TT I have a question, a question I have asked myself many times about my long term friend. How can we decide if something is an actual say mental health problem or an addiction? Or is an addiction to something a mental health problem or disability? I don't know of any clear headed way to think that through. I guess everyone has to think that through for themselves but it's not easy.

My career was in human services and I have two masters degree and a PhD in related fields. I spent most of my career working with people with disabilities.

My son does not have a mental illness or a disability. He is addicted to meth, and that is an extremely difficult addiction to overcome. A person’s dopamine is depleted and they don’t really find joy in anything once they quit using. It can take years from the last use to feel any joy.

He’s been to numerous treatment programs and assessed by many mental health professionals. He’s also very good at manipulating people. Some people that are addicts and alcoholics are trying to treat their mental illness with substances and these people are what we call dual diagnosed. Even if someone has a mental illness, they have to be willing to accept treatment and many times they are not.

This is totally different than someone not being able to hold a job because they have a disability such as autism or a severe physical disability. In this case, I would probably let the child live with me forever if they were not ruining my life like somebody with an addiction would be.

Addictions definitely aren’t easy to overcome. His father and I have been expecting that phone call that he is dead for many years now. If money were no object for me and I had unlimited funds I don’t really know if I would pay his rent just to keep him off the street. Sometimes when he has lived on the street long enough, he has gotten clean and gotten a job and changed his life for a while. We always hope it’s permanent and it never is.

Experts all advise that you stop enabling somebody so that they hit bottom and can help themselves. Everybody’s bottom is different and some people don’t seem to have one.

I haven’t allowed him to live with me for decades because once he starts using drugs, he will sell everything I own when I’m not home. The last time that happened to me was 26 years ago. That was certainly a defining moment. Luckily I didn’t have any pets back then since I have Maltese and they are worth some money.

 

[ivinsfan]

TT so much heartbreak in your post..every family member, friend or loved one of someone who struggles probably thinks every day what if anything can I or should I do to help. There are no easy answers for anyone. I know it's painful for everyone ..

 

[Stormy Kromer]

My career was in human services and I have two masters degree and a PhD in related fields. I spent most of my career working with people with disabilities.

My son does not have a mental illness or a disability. He is addicted to meth, and that is an extremely difficult addiction to overcome. A person’s dopamine is depleted and they don’t really find joy in anything once they quit using. It can take years from the last use to feel any joy.

He’s been to numerous treatment programs and assessed by many mental health professionals. He’s also very good at manipulating people. Some people that are addicts and alcoholics are trying to treat their mental illness with substances and these people are what we call dual diagnosed. Even if someone has a mental illness, they have to be willing to accept treatment and many times they are not.

This is totally different than someone not being able to hold a job because they have a disability such as autism or a severe physical disability. In this case, I would probably let the child live with me forever if they were not ruining my life like somebody with an addiction would be.

Addictions definitely aren’t easy to overcome. His father and I have been expecting that phone call that he is dead for many years now. If money were no object for me and I had unlimited funds I don’t really know if I would pay his rent just to keep him off the street. Sometimes when he has lived on the street long enough, he has gotten clean and gotten a job and changed his life for a while. We always hope it’s permanent and it never is.

Experts all advise that you stop enabling somebody so that they hit bottom and can help themselves. Everybody’s bottom is different and some people don’t seem to have one.

I haven’t allowed him to live with me for decades because once he starts using drugs, he will sell everything I own when I’m not home. The last time that happened to me was 26 years ago. That was certainly a defining moment. Luckily I didn’t have any pets back then since I have Maltese and they are worth some money.

TT, I understand. My brother is the person you describe.

You need support, so do I and everyone else who lives with addicts. Tough Love is all can suggest. That and law enforcement when necessary. I helped my mother get a restraining order against her other son (my brother) with the assistance of two Pastors and the local women's advocate. It saved her life.

My mother's other son has a rap sheet several pages long, and this is after my parents gave him hundreds of thousands of assistance. It never got better.

I feel your pain and wish we could meet and talk it over. It is NOT your fault.

 

[RunningBum]

I have an older brother who battled drug and alcohol addiction for years. He's very skilled in his trade and could always get jobs but could not hold them. The difference from the OP's son is that my brother wanted to work. He also made numerous attempts to clean up, and eventually got sober with AA. But he was losing confidence that AA was what he needed. One day a couple of missionaries came up his driveway and he was working in his garage, and he got 3 chairs for them to sit and talk. He decided to give it a try, and it took. He's active in the church, got married, they adopted a pre-teen, and he's been clean and sober for probably 30 years. He said he'll probably have to work as long as he's physically able to (70 now) to make up for the lost time and debt early in his life and to support his family.

I don't know how that helps the OP but maybe a success story will give him some hope.

We've had one financial discussion that my father pushed, years ago. He was making more money than he was spending but said he just didn't trust big corporations nor a financial advisor with his money, so he was putting it toward his mortgage to pay it down early. I think he was looking for an argument from me to invest. I told him if he wanted to invest that Vanguard index funds would be the way to go, but just having extra to put towards his mortgage indicated that he was living beneath his means and that was really good. He really appreciated that.

 

[Steelpony]

How can a person do that when the other person does keep in touch? We only hear from him when he is in need. When he need money.

Then you live with your choice. Mine wasn’t easy either. It’s up to my son to make amends if he wants to or can. He had a whole year heads up.

I don’t think after providing a collage education (even though I paid for mind and sacrificed during my young life) I owe any of my kids any more except for an emergency.

As far as a trust I want my other kids to delve out his inheritance if there is one. It will make his life better for longer.

So what’s he supposed to do after you both die?

 

[richardsok]

Looking at it from your son's point of view, it's certainly a humiliation to have to follow parents' rules into adulthood. I won't go into preaching mode here, as you certainly have a terrible dilemma.
Midway between abandoning him to the fate he has well earned and supporting him indefinitely, I would look into COMMUNAL LIVING or SHARED LIVING arrangements in your city. Of course, any group will insist on shared responsibilities and duties --- but it will be THEIR rules your son will have to follow -- not yours. All of a sudden you are no longer the "Bad Guys" who humiliate him.
Family dynamics ared minefields of memories and resentments. If possible, you might try to have him dealing with non-family to negotiate his living arrangements.
If possible give him a choice of shared living places he can choose and offer to pay his costs for one year plus $100/month walking around money. This should be much cheaper than paying for a s ingle rental on your own and will require that he straighten up to some extent.
If he makes it to six months of communal living, tell him you will honor the one year commitment, but at the end of that year you will pay only half of the communal costs fter that and no more free cash. In this way he will still have a modicum of security but he will have to think of earning part of it.
If he FAILS, which sorry to say is likely, you can still hold out the offer to try again. So if he winds up on a park bench, you have NOT abandoned him. You will feel sorry for his fate, but can rest assured you always held out a helping hand and he chose to reject your help.
Good luck.

 

[Teacher Terry]

TT, I understand. My brother is the person you describe.

You need support, so do I and everyone else who lives with addicts. Tough Love is all can suggest. That and law enforcement when necessary. I helped my mother get a restraining order against her other son (my brother) with the assistance of two Pastors and the local women's advocate. It saved her life.

My mother's other son has a rap sheet several pages long, and this is after my parents gave him hundreds of thousands of assistance. It never got better.

I feel your pain and wish we could meet and talk it over. It is NOT your fault.

Thanks so much for your compassion and support. It really gave me a boost to read what you wrote. i’m sorry that both you and your mom had to go through that. Sending hugs your way too.)

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Thanks so much for your compassion and support. It really gave me a boost to read what you wrote. i’m sorry that both you and your mom had to go through that. Sending hugs your way too.)

Thank you TT. I wish there was a support group for family members of abusive addicts. Every time I went for help I was scolded and told I had to be more understanding and helpful for the poor addict who was the constant victim....."He has a disease" is what I was always told. If I dared question him I was a bad guy, really bad guy.

I am 60 today and still get abused by a guy my parents call my brother, when I go to ask for help for the death threats and abusive threats he calls on me the clergy and others tell me it is up to me to forgive him. "He has a disease" Now the bible says to forgive, 70 times 7. I was past that 20 years ago and I still take a beating.

TT Do you know a group that I can talk to about being abused ? Parents told me to "toughen up" Churches are too busy to take time to care. Law enforcement is way to busy, I don't blame them. I just wish I could talk to someone about the abuse I have received from my parent's other child.

Don't mean to weigh you down TT. Just know you are not alone.

 

[kgtest]

NAMI is a great resource. Life is precious. You gotta want the change to some degree, or you will regress. That's what I know.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Thank you TT. I wish there was a support group for family members of abusive addicts. Every time I went for help I was scolded and told I had to be more understanding and helpful for the poor addict who was the constant victim....."He has a disease" is what I was always told. If I dared question him I was a bad guy, really bad guy.

I am 60 today and still get abused by a guy my parents call my brother, when I go to ask for help for the death threats and abusive threats he calls on me the clergy and others tell me it is up to me to forgive him. "He has a disease" Now the bible says to forgive, 70 times 7. I was past that 20 years ago and I still take a beating.

TT Do you know a group that I can talk to about being abused ? Parents told me to "toughen up" Churches are too busy to take time to care. Law enforcement is way to busy, I don't blame them. I just wish I could talk to someone about the abuse I have received from my parent's other child.

Don't mean to weigh you down TT. Just know you are not alone.

Personally, I have went into therapy a couple times in order to help myself adjust to having a child with an addiction. It did really help me. I know some people go to Alon, which is for the family members of an alcoholic or addict. It’s basically a support group of people in the same situation.

I think people in our age group, although I’m older than you at 71 were basically taught to handle problems on their own and that we needed to be tougher. I am a firm believer that at some point in everybody’s life they would probably benefit from seeing a good therapist. I know it’s been invaluable to me.

The key is to find a therapist that is good and that you click with. You also in the beginning should define with the assistance of the therapist your intended therapy goal so that both you and the therapist don’t get dragged down into minutia.

You want to keep moving forward towards your goal and to know when to end therapy. To give you an idea the two times in my life that I have went I went once or twice a month for a year. Personally, it was very beneficial. I hope you find some peace.

 

[engineernerd]

Two things stood out to me in OP's post.

One is that this son does not appear to have been particularly abusive or nasty. That's a good thing. It says nothing about whether he will overcome his problems but it's something you may be able to respect and value in your son.

The second thing is that you and your wife seem to have placed a heavy burden of hopes and expectations on this son's shoulders, going back to before his troubles started. Maybe it would be a mercy for him if his parents could give up on their high expectations, and instead see some gold in their son just as he is now, and tell him so.

Maybe if you stop trying to influence his decisions, and just give what you feel you want to - and can easily spare - with no conditions and no advice, that will communicate that you no longer consider him your child to be guided by his parents but rather an independent adult whose decisions are not your business to interfere in. Absolutely no guarantees here, but just maybe if you get out of his head there will be room for him to hear his own voice and figure out what he really wants out of life. If he asks for advice (which you know he won't follow anyway), try just saying something like "we know you'll figure it out, son," or turning the question back on him.

Just musing here, no idea if anything good would come of it.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

Irishgirl Thank you for that post. People that care about and love anyone with these issues are just people. I have a decades long friend who has a huge issue with compulsive spending. I believe some of the issue started with his Mother and her views on money. He spent money and more money that he didn't have, got anxious and then starting the sleeping pill and anxiety med train. Sometimes I just feel bad for him that his once wonderful life evolved into these problems and I try to help him with encouragement and practical solutions. sometimes I get so mad that he "did this to himself". At those times just want to get in his face and say stop it and just shape up. I've done both and neither helped him in any way.

I understand! You try to be empathetic and help-and it can be beyond frustrating when it feels like you get nowhere at all.
Mental health is precarious. I knew 2 people in executive positions who had some serious mental health breaks. One displayed some unfortunate behavior publicly that landed in the local newspaper. It was heartbreaking.
You are a good friend. I don't know where you live but you could try your areas mental health organization. In California they are administered at the county level.
Others have mentioned NAMI-which is a great resource google nami.org

Just suggestions-not trying to tell you that this is your responsibility.

 

[folivier]

While our son was in rehab the first time DW and I attended a therapy session with 2 other couples. That was helpful since all 6 of us were trying to understand addiction and how we could help WITHOUT enabling.
Then we attended a few al-anon meetings in different cities. We really didn't find any benefit to these. You might try a few different meetings until you find one that helps you.
As I mentioned earlier our son has distanced himself from our family. That hurts, thankfully we've kept on good terms with his ex so we can be involved in our granddaughters lives. For our son's inheritance we set up a trust and he has to meet certain things to get any money. Our main thoughts with the trust are for his inheritance to go to his 2 daughters.
Good luck.

 

[Koolau]

But there are professional trustees for hire who have no problem being strict.

How do you find such people and how do you vet them? Our kids had trusts from their grandparents and the trust "ate" a huge amount of their inheritance on fees and the only service they provided was quarterly reports.

I'm sure there must be good trust/trustees out there, but finding them or finding a true fiduciary is/has been problematic - and we aren't even dealing with the underlying issue in this thread.

Thanks for any help as we are hoping to get trusts within a year and our family situation is "complicated" though not in the way this thread describes.

 

[Dd852]

I'm so sorry you - and so many - are going through this. I admire the brutal honesty on this page. I had a similar issue with my sister from whom I was estranged for many years. But my bottom line is I paid her health insurance - and that, funny enough, was a floor that then she raised herself off of. I guess my point is you don't have to be all or nothing. There are ways of providing a safety net that simply can't be abused because you're controlling it. But in the end, as so many have said so well, it is his life to lead or misuse, sad and tragic and heartbreaking as that is.

 

[pb4uski]

How do you find such people and how do you vet them? Our kids had trusts from their grandparents and the trust "ate" a huge amount of their inheritance on fees and the only service they provided was quarterly reports.

I'm sure there must be good trust/trustees out there, but finding them or finding a true fiduciary is/has been problematic - and we aren't even dealing with the underlying issue in this thread.

Thanks for any help as we are hoping to get trusts within a year and our family situation is "complicated" though not in the way this thread describes.

I think maybe ate bank trust departments but I know Schwab offers it. Haven't explored it so I don't know anything on cost but I know it is available.

 

[pb4uski]

I think maybe ate bank trust departments but I know Schwab offers it. Haven't explored it so I don't know anything on cost but I know it is available.

See Charles Schwab

 

[Masquernom]

Soon after the start of one school year in high school, I got a call from a guy I didn't know. Turns out my wife's daughter was friends with their adopted, gay son. He wanted us to let the daughter move in with them. He told me they would offer the "warmth and affection" she needed. Apparently, their son had motor bikes and ATVs and lots of toys. So the daughter had told them how poorly she was treated at home and how nobody loved her. I thought for about 10 seconds on the phone call. These people want to take over this problem? Good for them! They bought her expensive clothes she wanted and she had lots of fun there for a while. The family kicked her out before the school year was over and back she came to us. I guess they didn't budget enough "warmth and affection" to last the year.
We got a lot of advice through the years from family and friends about how to deal with the daughter. All I can say is, good luck to you! Nothing I tried worked, you're welcome to give it a try any time. She'll be happy to move to your house. Just let me know when to bring her over.

 

[Masquernom]

One day in the office, 3 of us were standing in an aisle talking. One of the guys mentioned something about his kids. I noticed a lady standing near us listening. When the other guys left, this lady (who I'd never met) walked up to me and told me a story about her kids.
She said she had three kids. The oldest son a doctor, the youngest daughter a lawyer, the middle son in prison. She said she and her husband tried to treat each child the same growing up. She said nobody would ever convince her that some kids are not just born bad. She said the middle kid had been trouble his whole life. She finished her story and walked away. I never saw her again, but I can relate.

 

[Koolau]

One day in the office, 3 of us were standing in an aisle talking. One of the guys mentioned something about his kids. I noticed a lady standing near us listening. When the other guys left, this lady (who I'd never met) walked up to me and told me a story about her kids.
She said she had three kids. The oldest son a doctor, the youngest daughter a lawyer, the middle son in prison. She said she and her husband tried to treat each child the same growing up. She said nobody would ever convince her that some kids are not just born bad. She said the middle kid had been trouble his whole life. She finished her story and walked away. I never saw her again, but I can relate.

It's the age old question of nature vs nurture. There do seem to be people with traits that simply can't be changed by their environment. It's very sad for good parents.

 

[Masquernom]

Sorry for my rants. This thread just hit a very sore spot.

 

[pb4uski]

One day in the office, 3 of us were standing in an aisle talking. One of the guys mentioned something about his kids. I noticed a lady standing near us listening. When the other guys left, this lady (who I'd never met) walked up to me and told me a story about her kids.
She said she had three kids. The oldest son a doctor, the youngest daughter a lawyer, the middle son in prison. She said she and her husband tried to treat each child the same growing up. She said nobody would ever convince her that some kids are not just born bad. She said the middle kid had been trouble his whole life. She finished her story and walked away. I never saw her again, but I can relate.

That's one of the mysteries of life for me... for our family and others that I know... same genes, same home environment, same parenting, same school systems, same everything yet the kids turn out so differently... a mystery for sure. In the cases I'm thinking of not bad or good, just very different.