Need Some Sage Advice

[GrayHare]

Some recent studies on cloned animals are finding randomness is about as big a factor as nature and nurture.

 

[Markola]

These stories are heartbreaking and I feel compassion for everyone experiencing them.

 

[FargoI]

We dealt with a child dx with oppositional defiance disorder, which may or may not have been accurate. Lies, halfhearted efforts in school, literally going to college but attending no classes, poor decision after poor decision, and zero financial common sense. The entire situation nearly destroyed our marriage.

Retrospective lessons learned:

1- assuming one can afford to do so, continue paying for their (quality) health insurance. This is a crucial safety net for the literally stepping on the preverbal rusty nail; and routine physical and mental healthcare needs.
2- set realistic but stringent rules for living under one's roof; including, maintaining a job; cleanliness (personal), sharing household chores. etc. .... or no deal.
3- consistently respect the parent's Houshold curfews.

Our DD would not agree to our terms, and she chose not to stay under our roof. Seemingly, it took a LONG time for our DD's "extended" or delayed adolescence to subside. The agony she caused us and others is profound.

Somewhere around age 30 our DD obtained FT work, graduated from college, and found time to pursue her artistic passions. Around age 35 she apologized for being an ungrateful, disrespectful and difficult person (I recollect she actually used the word that starts with "B"). We literally thought our DD would never turn the preverbal "corner"

We have noted, and this thread helps confirm, there is an entire generation of people that inexplicitly chose not to follow their parents' roadmap. Perhaps as parents we tried too hard; or not hard enough due to our own constraints such as W-rk. We cannot change the past. My belief is one should never give up hope for a loved one; and maintain balance... remaining realistic and protecting oneself emotionally, physically and financially from material harm.

Best wishes to all.

 

[Dtail]

We dealt with a child dx with oppositional defiance disorder, which may or may not have been accurate. Lies, halfhearted efforts in school, literally going to college but attending no classes, poor decision after poor decision, and zero financial common sense. The entire situation nearly destroyed our marriage.

Retrospective lessons learned:

1- assuming one can afford to do so, continue paying for their (quality) health insurance. This is a crucial safety net for the literally stepping on the preverbal rusty nail; and routine physical and mental healthcare needs.
2- set realistic but stringent rules for living under one's roof; including, maintaining a job; cleanliness (personal), sharing household chores. etc. .... or no deal.
3- consistently respect the parent's Houshold curfews.

Our DD would not agree to our terms, and she chose not to stay under our roof. Seemingly, it took a LONG time for our DD's "extended" or delayed adolescence to subside. The agony she caused us and others is profound.

Somewhere around age 30 our DD obtained FT work, graduated from college, and found time to pursue her artistic passions. Around age 35 she apologized for being an ungrateful, disrespectful and difficult person (I recollect she actually used the word that starts with "B"). We literally thought our DD would never turn the preverbal "corner"

We have noted, and this thread helps confirm, there is an entire generation of people that inexplicitly chose not to follow their parents' roadmap. Perhaps as parents we tried too hard; or not hard enough due to our own constraints such as W-rk. We cannot change the past. My belief is one should never give up hope for a loved one; and maintain balance... remaining realistic and protecting oneself emotionally, physically and financially from material harm.

Best wishes to all.

Good to hear one story with a good ending.

 

[Masquernom]

One night, when DD was in middle school, I got a call from her math teacher. The teacher asked if I knew DD was failing her class. I said I had no idea, she also asked if we'd gotten any of the notes the teacher had sent home with DD. I told her we hadn't. She suspected as much she said. This was the night before parent/teacher conferences.

I asked DD what was going on. She gave me some story about a mean teacher nobody liked and issues in class. I asked DD, "tomorrow evening we're going to meet all your teachers, are you having problems in any other classes?" She told us no, it was just this class because of the teacher.

Of course, when we got in the car to go meet the other teachers the next evening, DD confessed she was failing all her classes. She said she didn't admit it the night before so she wouldn't have to deal with it. This was the year she decided she wouldn't do any homework the rest of the time she was in school. And she pretty much didn't.

 

[Masquernom]

At one point in DD's late 20's, I was trying to help her get a job. I was helping fill out job applications online. One of the applications asked for 2 or 3 previous addresses where she'd lived. She could only remember one. This upset her so much, she cried, she had to go outside and smoke a cigarette and call a friend for re-assurance.

 

[pb4uski]

We dealt with a child dx with oppositional defiance disorder, which may or may not have been accurate. Lies, halfhearted efforts in school, literally going to college but attending no classes, poor decision after poor decision, and zero financial common sense. The entire situation nearly destroyed our marriage.

Retrospective lessons learned:

1- assuming one can afford to do so, continue paying for their (quality) health insurance. This is a crucial safety net for the literally stepping on the preverbal rusty nail; and routine physical and mental healthcare needs.
2- set realistic but stringent rules for living under one's roof; including, maintaining a job; cleanliness (personal), sharing household chores. etc. .... or no deal.
3- consistently respect the parent's Houshold curfews.

Our DD would not agree to our terms, and she chose not to stay under our roof. Seemingly, it took a LONG time for our DD's "extended" or delayed adolescence to subside. The agony she caused us and others is profound.

Somewhere around age 30 our DD obtained FT work, graduated from college, and found time to pursue her artistic passions. Around age 35 she apologized for being an ungrateful, disrespectful and difficult person (I recollect she actually used the word that starts with "B"). We literally thought our DD would never turn the preverbal "corner"

We have noted, and this thread helps confirm, there is an entire generation of people that inexplicitly chose not to follow their parents' roadmap. Perhaps as parents we tried too hard; or not hard enough due to our own constraints such as W-rk. We cannot change the past. My belief is one should never give up hope for a loved one; and maintain balance... remaining realistic and protecting oneself emotionally, physically and financially from material harm.

Best wishes to all.

That describes DS to a tee. We moved him into college the fall after his high school graduation and had to go and get him 3 weeks later as he was being kicked out because he wasn't attending classes but was instead playing video games.

While he hasn't totally got it together, he has worked pretty consistently*, lived on his own (not under our roof)*, provided for himself and even saved mid-five figures towards retirement. I suspect that he'lnever own a home without our financial help which would consider if he ever "settles down" and has steady employment for more than a couple years.

* was fired from a job last September, took a reak and didn't look for a job for months and then found it hard to get another job. He moved in with us just before we left Texas for the summer home and has house-sat all summer while job hunting... but accepted an job offer just yesterday and starts on Monday Hopefully, he'll move out on his own again soon.

But... he is supporting himself and hasn't been under our roof for much of his adult life, is not in prison (it looked that might be his future way back), isn't into drugs or alcohol, is a great uncle to our two grandchildren and all in all a pretty good guy... so we are thankful for what we have given that our best friend's son of about the same age battled with alcohol and drug problems and committed suicide a year ago and other simliar much worse situations (some in this thread).

Not what we dreamed for him, but better than many.

 

[Koolau]

Of course, when we got in the car to go meet the other teachers the next evening, DD confessed she was failing all her classes. She said she didn't admit it the night before so she wouldn't have to deal with it. This was the year she decided she wouldn't do any homework the rest of the time she was in school. And she pretty much didn't.

I was pretty much the opposite. I could "see into the future" (not really, of course) and "see" my horrible future if I didn't do well in school, if I didn't maintain a good relationship with family, didn't do my homew*rk on time, didn't do well on tests, didn't maintain good relationships with teachers, etc.

That ability to "see" such results can be a curse as well as a useful character attribute. I lived too much of my life in the future. Well, the future is "now" and for the most part, the bad stuff I envisioned never materialized. Balance is so important in a young life.

Blessings.

 

[folivier]

Good for you Ko'olau!
Is there anyone here who has gone through addiction and the downward slide to a devastated life and willing to talk about it? Hopefully you've recovered.
I'd be very interested in hearing your views especially towards those you hurt. My son started AA but stopped when he got to the point to apologize to those he hurt. He never did and I think that is a big part of why he has distanced himself from family.

 

[RetiredHappy]

That describes DS to a tee. We moved him into college the fall after his high school graduation and had to go and get him 3 weeks later as he was being kicked out because he wasn't attending classes but was instead playing video games.

While he hasn't totally got it together, he has worked pretty consistently*, lived on his own (not under our roof)*, provided for himself and even saved mid-five figures towards retirement. I suspect that he'lnever own a home without our financial help which would consider if he ever "settles down" and has steady employment for more than a couple years.

* was fired from a job last September, took a reak and didn't look for a job for months and then found it hard to get another job. He moved in with us just before we left Texas for the summer home and has house-sat all summer while job hunting... but accepted an job offer just yesterday and starts on Monday Hopefully, he'll move out on his own again soon.

But... he is supporting himself and hasn't been under our roof for much of his adult life, is not in prison (it looked that might be his future way back), isn't into drugs or alcohol, is a great uncle to our two grandchildren and all in all a pretty good guy... so we are thankful for what we have given that our best friend's son of about the same age battled with alcohol and drug problems and committed suicide a year ago and other simliar much worse situations (some in this thread).

Not what we dreamed for him, but better than many.

Kind of like my son. My son, despite being (high functioning) autistic, he earned 2 Bachelor degree from state universities, one in Geographical Information Systems and several years later, a second in Accounting. I had high hopes for him. He worked very hard through school as he has short-term memory processing issues and has significant difficulties in understanding verbal communication. When young, we were told to pull him out of school and place him in an institution for the disabled. We fought to keep him in regular school and he attended private school from middle school through high school to minimize bullying. With his hard work and grades (top scores in Math and Science in standardized tests), he even got into a top public university but struggled. I pulled him out after 2 years (left in good academic standing), made him stay at home and attend a local state university.

After his first Bachelor degree, our condition for him was that if he could not find a job after 3 months, he was coming to work for us, and he did that for 5 years. He was very hardworking but his short term memory was an issue, and ho-and-hum when asked a question as he struggled to recall data. After we sold the business, he stayed on for 6 months and then got laid off together with half the staff due to a merger.

Since then, he struggled to find a job, and hence he went on to pursue an Accounting degree, but has failed to land any sort of office job. He is unsuccessful in interviews because of his communication/memory issues. He makes somewhere between $20K to $40K a year, and he gets another $19K to $38K, from me as part of gifting, and whatever he does not need to live on gets invested for him. He works in blue collar jobs and sometimes he manages to work a full year, and at other times for a few months a year, as he quits because he hates his supervisors, occasionally due to some female colleagues bullying him or that the work is too back breaking. He got bullied in school and at work, even when he worked for us - heck we owned the company. Life has been pretty tough for him. A part of me says that I should let him stay home (he owns his own home) and not work, and the other part of me says that he should go out and do his best and work as much as he can. He is 39, and I definitely don't want him to work beyond 50. He is dealt with a bad hand in life and I think 50 feels about right and that he should at least be able to relax and do what he wants with his time then.

My sister has a kid with Asperger and he lives at home. He has 2 other siblings. They were all designated as gifted and all graduated with high honors. My sister and brother-in-law let this kid stay home because work life was pretty tough for him. He did an internship for a year and just never wanted to work again. His 2 siblings are very successful at work. The oldest kid knows that he is responsible for his younger brother after their parents are gone. The 2 boys live with the parents (culturally, children don't move out until they are married and they are unlikely to marry.) The parents are very well to-do, having 8-figure wealth so money is not an issue. In fact my sister and brother-in-law have bought multi-million dollar condos in each of their names, to provide the two boys with rental incomes and the girl is getting married soon and will move into her condo. (They live in a very expensive country/city-state and homes are very expensive.) My sister and brother-in-law are in the process of building a home for themselves where the expectation is that their 2 sons will continue to live in after their parents are gone. When I compare my nephew and my son, I often question if I am doing the right thing by making my son work.

 

[pb4uski]

^Yeah, raising kids is hard. For certain, our parents made it look alo easier than it is but those were different times.

As an aside and only because I was looking at it for DS's situation earlier today since he will only have 3-1/2 months of wages this year... you might want to check into the retirement saver's tax credit if you haven't already done so. It is a non-refundable tax credit of up to $1,000 for up to $2,000 of retirement savings and gets scaled back as income rises. I can usually calibrate DS' deductible IRA contribution and Roth contribution so he can get a crdit for all taxes due and get a refund of all withholdings.

 

[Original Wally]

That's one of the mysteries of life for me... for our family and others that I know... same genes, same home environment, same parenting, same school systems, same everything yet the kids turn out so differently... a mystery for sure. In the cases I'm thinking of not bad or good, just very different.

There IS some kind of "middle child" thing that happens.

 

[Koolau]

Retired Happy, my gut tells me that "making" your son w*rk is the best plan. It's gotta be tough on him and you, but you won't be there forever to guide him. He needs to learn - even though it's difficult for him.

Blessings to you and your son. Your situation isn't easy and I just hope things w*rk out for you.

 

[RetiredHappy]

Retired Happy, my gut tells me that "making" your son w*rk is the best plan. It's gotta be tough on him and you, but you won't be there forever to guide him. He needs to learn - even though it's difficult for him.

Blessings to you and your son. Your situation isn't easy and I just hope things w*rk out for you.

He has already put 12 full years into the system, despite several years of non-employment, so he has met his Medicare and SS qualification, which has been my goal for him. I breathe a little easier once he got his 40 quarters in.

 

[gayl]

A is 19 yr old and had a good scholarship - tuition, fees, books, housing covered. She went to admissions after 1st yr and stated the housing situation broke her. Came home depressed. So they offered her a private apt for the 2nd yr and the option to just take fall off, return in spring. Right now she does NOTHING but play video games and reads. Who blows off free college? The 19 yo. Just got her BACK into therapy .... really hope she doesn't continue on this path

 

[Waynew]

I can relate to your story. My brother served a couple of years in the US Army but then made choices during the next 40+ years that were catastrophic. Mom often asked me what she should do to fix the problem or to address the issues. Ultimately we lost contact with him and mom passed away not knowing where he was or how he was doing. Both mom and dad decided not to enable his bad behaviors, and I think that was wise. He was included in their will for 1% of their estate and the other three children received 33% each.

About two years ago I got a call from a Social Worker in California that my brother was in the hospital. He had been living on the streets and had a serious respiratory problem. I flew to California immediately to see how I might be able to meet some of his basic needs. It was a good visit, but his choices and lifestyle had taken their toll. Earlier this year I got a call from a coroner in CA. My brother had passed away.

I think it boils down to loving without enabling and helping without creating more hurting. That means (as painful as it is) that we don't fix the problem with dollars. That approach doesn't seem to be working so continuing to do it is not, in my opinion, wise. You have offered real solutions but those have been rejected. Just be available and pray.

 

[meleana]

I feel for you. So very sad. But I’m in the tough love camp. I would cut him off financially and let him live his life his way. The end.

 

[Joylush]

It’s hard. We’ve gotten him out of so many situations. In my adult life, I always had two jobs to provide for my family. The crazy thing is he is unwilling to recognize the truth. Even as it stares him in the face. I’ve told him that he needed to do more to get out of situation. He needed or needs to work multiple jobs.

He has lost everything more than once. We’ve purchased a mattress, bed, TV’s , dining room table and sofa along with microwave, dishes and silverware.

We have the means to help financially but his sense of entitlement pisses me off. I came from humble beginnings. Joined the Air Force and made it a career. I’m 66 years old and a open heart survivor. We want to trap and enjoy our retirement.

How can we when his actions affect us and his siblings? Even though we know the right thing to do is to disown him, it’s hard. He’s still our son.

My heart is torn but I know I can’t keep fixing his issues.

You are exactly right. I have a 34 year old son you basically described. You have to stop bailing him out and let him live with the consequences of his choices. I mean who’s going to take care of him when you’re gone if he never learns? Is that going to become the burden of his siblings? Any help I’ve given my irresponsible son I’ve given an equal amount to my responsible child. I had parents who rewarded the most irresponsible at the expense of the responsible siblings and I vowed to never be that parent.

 

[PatrickW]

You people all make me happy that I never had any kids (as far as I know).

 

[WhenIsItTime]

I've got one who is just turning 16. No work ethic and miles of excuses. I think I'll be re-reading this thread for years to come.

 

[Koolau]

I've got one who is just turning 16. No work ethic and miles of excuses. I think I'll be re-reading this thread for years to come.

Two of our 16 year olds were a real handful. We had to invest a lot of time/effort with them. They have both turned out to be responsible adults. Our third was a "dream" - she often said she watched the other two and played "our" game which actually gave her much more freedom.

Raising kids isn't for everyone, but it can be so rewarding - especially when you get reports from other people about how well behaved your kids are ("Are you talking about MY kids)??!!

I was always gratified that our kids felt free to test us and test their limits. I think that's healthy and bodes well for their futures.

An old boss of mine had a small sign in his office: Notice everything, overlook a lot, manage a little. That was my philosophy of child rearing. Seems to have w*rked (though I can't discount the element of luck)!

Hey, and then you get Grand Kids!

 

[folivier]

Koolau, our youngest was like your daughter. He watched his older brother get into trouble and did the opposite to stay on our good side. I knew he wasn't perfect and did typical kid and teenager stuff but stayed out of trouble. His brother was always pushing the limits.
I'd get the same compliments from other parents about younger son. But knew he was smart enough to stay out of big trouble.
Fast forward to today: older brother is alcoholic and blames us for all of his bad decisions. Thankfully he is successful in his career. Younger is successful and happy. But he is concerned his 3 year old son will turn out like his older brother. We're trying to help him with his anger and frustrations.

 

[Gumby]

You people all make me happy that I never had any kids (as far as I know).

The young wife and I never had any children, but we do have eight nephews and a niece (ranging from 28 to 41) whose courses we have followed over the years. My observation is that it took some of them a lot longer than others to get into the full swing of "adulting", but eventually they all did. I tip my hat to our siblings for doing the hard work and hanging in there. I hope to live long enough see the great nieces and nephews (currently also nine strong) also make their way in the world.

 

[Koolau]

Koolau, our youngest was like your daughter. He watched his older brother get into trouble and did the opposite to stay on our good side. I knew he wasn't perfect and did typical kid and teenager stuff but stayed out of trouble. His brother was always pushing the limits.
I'd get the same compliments from other parents about younger son. But knew he was smart enough to stay out of big trouble.
Fast forward to today: older brother is alcoholic and blames us for all of his bad decisions. Thankfully he is successful in his career. Younger is successful and happy. But he is concerned his 3 year old son will turn out like his older brother. We're trying to help him with his anger and frustrations.

Parents and grandparents can be SO important to the next generation. It's good that your son turns to you for advice (after all, his dad had two boys to raise)! Good on you and good on him.

 

[Teacher Terry]

He has already put 12 full years into the system, despite several years of non-employment, so he has met his Medicare and SS qualification, which has been my goal for him. I breathe a little easier once he got his 40 quarters in.

Honestly, I think making him work to 50 is really in his best interest. I also am really glad that you’re going to be able to leave him enough money so that he will not have to work for the rest of his life. Having a severe disability like autism, definitely makes for a tough life. I think you’re doing a great job as a parent.